Will military and police disobey orders when the time comes?

I have been in discussions many times over the years with some who are of the opinion that soldiers and policemen will become our worst enemy some time in the future. Maybe in a SHTF scenario, or possibly a civil war of sorts. The FEMA camps that some talk about are a good example of this type of talk. I believe that this will never be the case, and that when or if this type of scenario happens, it will in fact be just the opposite that takes place.

I am only going off of memory here, and do not have time this morning to research examples, but I'll site a couple of instances to back my claim. Afterwords I would like to hear from some here that have served in the armed forces or police forces, as you guys have direct experience and have no doubt thought about this already if you've participated here for any amount of time.

Quite a number of years ago there was a study done in a prison scenario, it was performed using college kids, in which the students were divided up into inmates and guards. During the study, it was shown by the end of the experiment that the guards started to brutalize the inmates. It became almost a real life prison scene, even though the students knew from the beginning that it was an experiment. There is also another study where individuals were given orders to shock patients in another room with some type of machine. The ones pushing the button to shock other patients were found to shock them up to and almost past the point of death, and only a very small number of people refused to push the button after seeing the pain they were causing. The result of both of these studies seemed to convey that people will follow orders to do almost anything to their fellow humans as long as they will not have take personal responsibility for the results.

I think that both studies were flawed. College kids are programmed to be impressionable. Even if one of those kids had become a recent father, he may have changed the results of the study dramatically. When family becomes involved, the results would fly out the window, but isn't that what concerns us more than anything out in the real world?

Family, is the flaw in all of these theories I believe. Not just family, but the connection and responsibility of us to help and protect our neighbors and their families as well as our communities. At least to some degree, whether it be the people in your town, your coworkers, motorcycle club, hunting buddies, sewing circles etc. that you may belong to, these circles have bonds that will grow to encompass the whole of the communities around you eventually if and when the time comes, I believe.

It is during the worst times that the best qualities come out of us. When or if we are seeing those around us becoming victims to a "tyrannical" force, I believe that is when the bonds held between our communities will express themselves in such a way as we have not seen before. It is not possible for there to be a North/South type civil war again in this country. I can't imagine a scenario where we could become divided like that in this day and age.

In the day to day circles that we spin, I can see where some have lost faith in humanity, and there are plenty of examples of where those around us abuse their power, but I believe that history has shown that those who can, will stand up and express the best parts of our nature when or if the time ever comes. There are so many smaller tight knit communities within our larger ones that have bonds that will not be broken. Together as a whole, I believe that these bonds are stronger than any outside force that tries to divide us, no matter what it may be.



I would like to use this thread as kind of an experiment in itself to find out if my opinion rings true to others out there, or if most here disagree. Please feel free to rant about, or to put your input in any way you see fit. I wouldn't mind some discussion about the specific experiments I sited as well, if anyone wants to bring them out for others to see. As I said before, any input by those who are, or have served in the forces will be appreciated.

Thanks all, and have a good Sunday!

reply to post by Quauhtli


To put it as plainly as possible, some will and some will not.

The military is plagued with the same amount of ignorance by percentage as the rest of society.

In fact, they may be even more ignorant of the goings-on in the country since they (the air force, at least) have issued orders to the troops that they are not to read articles that attack the policies of the government and the President in particular.

reply to post by Quauhtli


The government isn't stupid. In any scenario where they (government) has to use force via police/military, it'll be one where the majority of people welcome them.

Just look at Boston!

Scare the populace enough and regular folks will welcome police/military into their homes.

This mass manipulation, social engineering also occurs within the military/police. They will be manipulated into thinking that they are "helping" or "pacifying" unrest.

Just my humble opinion.

My guess is 80% will follow orders and 20% will challenge them and 20% of the "challengers" will comply anyway (application of the Pareto Principle; 80/20 rule). So that would suggest that approx. 84% will follow orders (4% having challenged first) and 16% will not comply. That is approximately 1 out of 6 and more than TPTB are counting on....especially after their campaign to weed out those likely to resist unconditional authority.

reply to post by beezzer


I agree. But I also think, that the same fear that may be used in the first hand cases, will be the bonding factor in the end. There is definitely an art that goes into portraying the enemy.

On a local level, I think that those who protect us today will be standing next to us against any other outside forces in the end, and it will be hard for anyone within or without to use those same forces against us on any grand scale.

This is just my two cents. Having worked in law enforcement for many years. I can say that there will be many officers who will not participate in any orders that go against the people and constitution....and there will be some who will do what ever they are ordered to because they are dirty and stand to benefit one way or the other.

I do think that most will fight side to side with their fellow man (civilians) because family is a powerful motivator. And int the rual areas, many are related by blood or through marriage.

History teaches that military and police will follow orders...


sorry...

reply to post by rival


I'd say our saving grace then is that History has never recorded a situation like ours. Where else has the world seen a 100% Volunteer Military turn on their own population with little notice, build up or logic ..as it would be at this stage or anything in the foreseeable future?

My experience with vets is that they're just people like everyone else. The same doubts (if not more) than we have are what they live with as well and aren't looking to kill Americans.

After all.... We're dealing with a force today of Combat vets, almost across the board. The only thing keeping this all in perspective and sense for them, in many ways, is the sense that Americans are what this was all for. It has to be FOR something...all the loss and fallen friends. If not for Americans back home? Then what and for who?

I think it's a real complex thing but in the end, you won't see many soldiers willing to die by American bullets defending or following the orders of the man in Office to give them. No way, no how.

As for cops? lol.... No guess work needed. We saw that in Katrina. A fair % tossed their badges in the trunk and told the department to get stuffed until they secured their OWN families and settled the home front.

reply to rival

The rual south is an exception to the rule.
You do not mess with our beliefs ( God ), our Families or our Constitutional rights.
Big cities are another story.

Originally posted by rival
History teaches that military and police will follow orders...

I have over three decades in the service that experiance tells me that you are...oh..so...wrong.

They may at first, but I think that if things remained heated, you would see a lot of AWOLs and Officers and NCOs willfully disobeying orders. I've seen it before and have done so myself.

There is a thing called a illegal order and you don't have to follow it.

reply to post by Quauhtli


What FEMA camps? Eh?

reply to post by Quauhtli


Is it in the constitution that our armed forces can not be used against the people?

All military, government and LEO take an oath to uphold that constitution?

But, historically unions and other protesters have been faced with death from these.

Maybe the biggest factor would be if there is a resistance to the orders; someone shooting at you or offending you?

Pray we never have to find out...

Yesterday, there was a pic of military or LEO armed with automatic weapons at a women's rights demonstration,
what happens if there is a bang or other unexpected event? LEO seems to be totally conditioned to empty a clip whenever provoked. Kent State comes to mind and many current news stories of innocents taking a high number of rounds.



Just being in sight of automatic weapons; in airports or cities gives me a bad feeling, stuff happens...

Originally posted by rival
History teaches that military and police will follow orders...

sorry...

No need to be sorry. It's factual as far as I can tell.

But, the small group of thinkers that still have functioning mental capacity will likely turn the world upside down for the uniformed herd. One man/woman on the inside can provide names, dates, places, resources, procedures and more. Handy info to have, before or after hell is unleashed.

The local police and military will probably not follow orders if they are told to inappropriately detain or shoot good and honest citizens. They will use a situation like this to get rid of troublemakers and those who harass them. This will not be a problem for law abiding mellow people.

If you were a cop or soldier and someone was harassing you or harassed you in the past, wouldn't you use this opportunity to get back at them and make a better community in the future? I think people will be surprised if this kind of thing develops, a lot of the upper level disruptive community members that get away with everything will be gone. I don't think the working man or the lower class with a good attitude has to worry. The way it is now, the cops arrest someone and they are back on the streets causing trouble within a few days with a slap on the wrist while the hard working citizens who want to go out and have a drink after work or who do not wear their seatbelts are penalized. I know a lot of cops, they don't really want to give a person who has had a couple of drinks at a wedding reception a ticket. They don't want to destroy an eighteen year old's future with a MIP because the kid decided to have a few drinks at an outdoor party of good kids. They want to bust the ones that are instigating this activity though. They know that kids will be kids and that they have to steer them away from a life of drugs and crimes.

Don't get in the cops face and they will not bother you if this happens.

reply to post by rickymouse


Don't make eye contact.
Don't criticize, complain, or condemn.
Don't stand out in the crowd.
Move along nothing to see...

Originally posted by grumpydaysleeper

reply to rival

The rual south is an exception to the rule.
You do not mess with our beliefs ( God ), our Families or our Constitutional rights.
Big cities are another story.

edit on 30-6-2013 by grumpydaysleeper because: (no reason given)

I grew up in the rural south, My family is there now, but I live in Long Island NY. In some ways, the folks here have even tighter knit communities within the "big cities" than what can be found in middle America. The firemen and policemen are unionized and one would have a hard time joining if they did not have family within the force. There are also cultural bonds such as Italian, Irish etc. These groups would be a formidable foe to anyone trying to instill any type of order that was not accepted by the people within the communities around here. There is already a brotherhood of order that exists here.

Although for the most part people throughout the country are good and honest folks, the christian population is easily swayed into thinking that those who do not fit the bill are enemies of God etc. This is why propaganda works so well on them. Remember some of the words and phrases used in the beginning of the Iraq war ~ "evil doers".

It has been shown that people who are a part of these sub communities such as Christianity or motorcycle clubs or sewing circles tend to have healthier more productive lives. These are the communities that would bring people together if we ever had a time of need. That said, I would be careful putting stock into any type of religious order. Religion can be a little closed minded when it comes to things of this nature.

Originally posted by donlashway
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Don't make eye contact.
Don't criticize, complain, or condemn.
Don't stand out in the crowd.
Move along nothing to see...

I always make eye contact with cops when I talk to them. I make contact with happy and respectful eyes. I never have a problem.

I also complain about the crime or accident and discuss the dropping morals of society, but never get involved in personal events. Chit chat works fine.

I don't try to interfere with their job. I respect the need for law enforcement in the community.

Most cops are good people, but just like the general public, five to seven percent of them are corrupt.

History suggest enough of them will follow whatever orders they are given, at least at first. Its already occurred during the last period of economic hardship. Look up what happened to the Bonus Army in Washington in 1932.

If serving military will attack unarmed veterans when told to they will certainly attack you when told to.

reply to post by rickymouse

Totally agree with you in current conditions, however if being rounded up to go to feeding camp or any other situation that may occur in a shtf situation, I think I should stay as far away as possible, mouth and body don't always think when I see something I feel as wrong. Just saying...

Latest catch phrase in news is "BIG DATA" leads me to believe there will be list. Consider everything (everything) ever posted or said in my lifetime in one data base, regardless of any changes in views or knowledge and it's a good bet I'll make the list.

I'd be more worried about my fellow citizens than i would about LEO's and the military.

When "the time comes", it'll be dog eat dog.