The Purest form of Christianity, was Eastern Orthodoxy, the Desert Fathers, Monks, Hermits, & Mystic

The Eastern Orthodox Churches actually have the best claim to have the purest forms of Christianity based on Jesus and the Disciples. They even have numerous Monasteries that have credible evidence to be holding the remains of John The Baptist and a few disciples.

So why am I posting this? Because Western Christianity is a watered down joke based on Catholicism. The 2 major factions where E.O. and Catholicism and they split in the the Great Schism of 1054.

One of the tenants of that Schism was: Catholicism said that you read the Bible and remain a Christian using only Logic and reason. E.O. said that you only use logic/reason for a short while, then once indwelled with the Holy Spirit, you are imbued with Higher Spiritual Faculties such as Transcendence, Non-Judgmental Love, Timelessness, Ego-Death, and direct experiences of God ...which give you a better understanding of the Bible than mere logic/reason (which is of Man).

The roots of E.O. come from the Desert Fathers. These were Monks/Mystics/Hermits that followed the blueprints and recipes that Jesus laid down, and followed in his footsteps by leaving everything behind, and entering into the desert.

Being in the Desert, tempted by Satan, by your own Ego, the harshness of solitude, constant prayer, constant surrender, eating only bread and drinking only water, going within for hours upon days upon months upon years.

Eventually, some of these Desert Fathers would reach Union with God, Enlightenment, complete Ego Death, Permanently indwelled by the Spirit. This is exactly what it was all about. Union with God based Enlightenment. The cleansing of the Ego and subconscious. Direct experiences of God, The Spirit, Angels, Jesus, facing off with Satan head on with the help of God.......

That's what it was all about. When Jesus was teaching, he picked his disciples and told them to leave EVERYTHING behind. Absolute detachment, no clinging, God and spirituality first, solitude, silence, ego death, the Spirit, etc
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What we have today is watered down westernized feel good multi-denominational (we're right and everyone else is wrong) go to Church one day a week, hardly anyone that I know that calls themselves a Christian have experienced the Ego death that comes from being indwelled by the SPirit.

Instead of Ego death, it has become a system of replacing your old worldly carnal ego, with a Christian based holier than thou I'm right and everyone else is wrong Christian-label based ego......

Christ wasn't about that. He was about the elimination of all labels. The label is what "others" were calling those who were trying to follow in Christ's footsteps. It was originally followers of "The Way." The Way to enlightenment, God, and ego death......

........The West is so watered down it's a joke. That's why people are leaving in droves and it's dying.

The Christian of the future will be a mystic or he will not exist at all. - Karl Rahner


So you can either take your direction and learn about Christ from a Pastor/Preacher/Minister who was taught by some theology school, but lacks the direct inner experiences. Or you can take your direction from Christian Monks/Desert Fathers/Hermits/Mystics who spent decades in meditation, going within, surrendering the ego, Enlightenment and eventual Union with God.

The Books provided by the Latter are:
The Sayings of the Desert Fathers.
The Philokhalia
The way of a Pilgrim
The Cloud of Unknowing

Is it possible that with your attention divided between Catholic and Orthodox, you have missed the best part of early Christianity? How about the Arians? The Copts? The Nestorians? The early British Church? How about the scattered apostolic churches which history has almost forgotten, such as the Waldensians?

There has been precious little genuine Christianity since the Council of Nicaea...

reply to post by Lazarus Short

There has been precious little genuine Christianity since the Council of Nicaea...

That's nonsense. Christ lives in the hearts of mankind. Saying that somehow Christianity died with the Council of Nicaea is an intellectual and academic conceit left over from the late 70's and early 80's.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Is it possible that with your attention divided between Catholic and Orthodox, you have missed the best part of early Christianity? How about the Arians? The Copts? The Nestorians? The early British Church? How about the scattered apostolic churches which history has almost forgotten, such as the Waldensians?

There has been precious little genuine Christianity since the Council of Nicaea...

Well Yes of Course, all those smaller branches count as well. I was mainly focusing on the biggest one that's still up and running.

There were even Gnostic groups that discussed the experience of Getting the Holy Spirit and Ego Death, which sure puts a huge dent into those who like to judge who is, and isn't, a true Christian.

My point being, that soon after Jesus' death/ascension ........the big thing to do, was to work on yourself and on ego death in a desert or monastic atmosphere of solitude and hard-core-ness.

I'm not knocking the house-holder with kids, married, job, bills, who prays once a week at a 45 minute church session. I understand they're busy with their roles. However what I'm pointing out is that True Christianity was ultimately very hard core, experiential, lots of solitude, meditation, prayer, grace, etc.....all of which was supposed to, and many times did, lead to Enlightenment, Ego Death, Union w/ God, indwelled by the Spirit ....as direct experiences just like the disciples...

reply to post by Bybyots

That's nonsense. Christ lives in the hearts of mankind. Saying that somehow Christianity died with the Council of Nicaea is an intellectual and academic conceit left over from the late 70's and early 80

Yes this is true. Christianity is still alive and well in it's truest forms. Various Monasteries are still pumping out Christ-Like Enlightened Saints and that's what it's all about ....(Not I, but Christ in me)......

However the counsel did muck things up in spreading a global watered-down form of dogmatic fundamentalism where many "christians" are more like saduccees and pharisees than loving non-judgmental friends & teachers

reply to post by dominicus


Christ did not teach us to go into the desert to seek enlightenment. What He did teach by the Holy Ghost through Paul was that we were to take the Gospel to the world and not to forsake the fellowship of the Saints. He did not teach us to collect bits and pieces of dead people and other thing to be used a talismans. These practices are of pagan origin and have no place in the body of Christ the church. So in this aspect both the Eastern and Western Catholics are in error.

reply to post by dominicus

So you can either take your direction and learn about Christ from a Pastor/Preacher/Minister who was taught by some theology school, but lacks the direct inner experiences. Or you can take your direction from Christian Monks/Desert Fathers/Hermits/Mystics who spent decades in meditation, going within, surrendering the ego, Enlightenment and eventual Union with God.

Why would I take direction from either?
Both are living a life that does no more than confirm their bias and belief system. Neither is seeking truth. Both are seeking further indoctrination to further a path they have already chosen. Obviously, it is their right, as human beings, to make their own choices. But neither, is a good choice for direction.

“Sometime, somewhere, you take something to be the truth. If you cling to it so much, even when the truth comes in person and knocks on your door, you will not open it.” Buddha

reply to post by guitarplayer

Christ did not teach us to go into the desert to seek enlightenment.

That's just not true. Once a Christian gets the Holy Spirit, many are drawn to be Hermits, to be Monks, to be Desert Fathers, while others are called to spread, teach, and be out in the world. The thing is, how can you possibly be teaching and spreading the message unless you have some level of Holy Spirit/Ego Death/Self Mastery/Grace.

Before I was a Christian, I was filled with worldly goals/pursuits. After getting the Holy Spirit, my heart longs for solitude, monasteries, Union w/ God .....come to find this happens to many Christians and it is God drawing the Soul into Union.....

What He did teach by the Holy Ghost through Paul was that we were to take the Gospel to the world and not to forsake the fellowship of the Saints.

But not til they were ready. Just like Christ himself didn't teach til getting the Spirit and spending time in the Desert. Same with us.

He did not teach us to collect bits and pieces of dead people and other thing to be used a talismans.

I agree. I don't know where this part of E.O. came from. However I do think there is something to it. Just like perhaps the Shroud of Turin may be real and if it is, the light of Christ would have caused it to be the way it is. Moreover, a prayer rope used by an Saint in Union with God for 40+ years may just be empowered. I don't personally have experience with this though, so the verdicts still out for me

reply to post by Klassified

Why would I take direction from either? Both are living a life that does no more than confirm their bias and belief system. Neither is seeking truth.

Because they are just as tangible and relevant methods to finding "truth" as whatever system you are currently using. Except that in the Christian path, you get hit with Grace which makes it easier to let go of, and slay the ego. They are no more belief systems than what you believe with your reply.

Both are seeking further indoctrination to further a path they have already chosen.

Wrong. The purpose of a Christian is to directly find, experience, and live the Absolute Truth prior to all bias, thought, illusion.

Obviously, it is their right, as human beings, to make their own choices. But neither, is a good choice for direction.

I think you've missed the point. It's just as relevant, if not more, than:__________ what ever philosophy and path you have chosen to find the truth.

So you're big on Non-daulity? Buddhism? Zen? Mysticsim? Direct Experience? Etc? Christianity has it all covered and makes it at times much easier

reply to post by dominicus

Wrong. The purpose of a Christian is to directly find, experience, and live the Absolute Truth prior to all bias, thought, illusion.

But the word Christian, in and of itself, denotes connotations, and preconceived notions from the start. In order to call ones self a Christian says, I accept, at the very least, its basic tenets and doctrines. Such as "Grace". While the EO may take a more liberal, and mystical approach to the ideology of the Christian faith, it is still nonetheless, Christian. And therefore subjective in its initial, and ongoing, approach to finding "truth".

I am not Buddhist btw. But I do like some of his teaching, just as I like some of the teachings attributed to Jesus.

S&F, for a thoughtful thread, and response.

Nice thread, and I agree. However, don't think there are none on the Western side who have not done or do the same.

reply to post by dominicus


Going off and being a monk, a life of isolation is a waste to what Christ has called us too and that is evangelism. We are to be living testaments to the world of the lost no hold up some place out of sight of the world. Both the East and the West has corrupted the Word of God and filled it with human traditions and vain prayers

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by dominicus

 

Going off and being a monk, a life of isolation is a waste to what Christ has called us too and that is evangelism. We are to be living testaments to the world of the lost no hold up some place out of sight of the world. Both the East and the West has corrupted the Word of God and filled it with human traditions and vain prayers

Are you not remembering Christ's time in solitude, prayer, desert, isolation, and getting the Holy Spirit prior to him teaching?

If I am going to listen to a Spiritual Teacher, I expect him to have spent some serious time within, in solitude, knowing from direct experience how to conquer the carnal-mind/animal-body and how to surrender the ego.

If it's some pimple faced pastor fresh out of seminary repeating what he was taught in school, there is no hart or experience there. That is Vain teaching.

After I got the Holy Spirit, my heart was called to solitude, meditation, isolation, surrender, letting go.....until I came to a place where I understood the ego/mind, carnal body, Union, grace, etc. Called by the Spirit to do so....

The Body of Christ is made up of Evangelism and Monkhood, hermits, mystics, saints......

Originally posted by dominicus

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by dominicus

 

Going off and being a monk, a life of isolation is a waste to what Christ has called us too and that is evangelism. We are to be living testaments to the world of the lost no hold up some place out of sight of the world. Both the East and the West has corrupted the Word of God and filled it with human traditions and vain prayers

Are you not remembering Christ's time in solitude, prayer, desert, isolation, and getting the Holy Spirit prior to him teaching?

If I am going to listen to a Spiritual Teacher, I expect him to have spent some serious time within, in solitude, knowing from direct experience how to conquer the carnal-mind/animal-body and how to surrender the ego.

If it's some pimple faced pastor fresh out of seminary repeating what he was taught in school, there is no hart or experience there. That is Vain teaching.

After I got the Holy Spirit, my heat was called to solitude, meditation, isolation, surrender, letting go.....until I came to a place where I understood the ego/mind, carnal body, Union, grace, etc. Called by the Spirit to do so....

The Body of Christ is made up of Evangalism and Monkhood, hermits, mystics, saints......

Instead of editing my last post, I'll just say this is why I agree with this thread. Both John and Jesus spent alot of personal time with God first before they came out and spoke. Even Moses, although already in the desert did the same. Just because you have given your life to the Lord, it doesn't mean your ready go out and start preaching right off the gate. You need strength and confirmation first.

I went through the same thing. I've battled the whispers (and still do ) and illusions, it's not a easy test. Satan is very deceptive. But if you haven't spent personal time with the Lord then these doors are open for Satan to creep in and trick you very easily.

The purpose of solitude in the beginning is so that you learn to how to overcome these things. I'm not saying you can't do it without solitude, but if you do you'll be alot more stronger and your words will cut alot deeper.

reply to post by dominicus


All Christians are saints to begin with they are not some special class that man has deemed them to be. How much of your faith have you shared lately? How much fruit have you bared lately? How many have you watered, plowed and birthed into the Kingdome lately? Yes Christ went into the wilderness in preparation for His earthly ministry. How many monks leave the sanctuary of the four wall of the monastery to go into all the world and preach the gospel of Christ?
I don’t believe that I have advocated anyone listening to someone who has come out of seminary training have I?

reply to post by guitarplayer

All Christians are saints to begin with they are not some special class that man has deemed them to be.

I don't agree, I've met "christians" along the way, that have since left the path, others who are now agnostics, atheists, or part of other religions. There has to be a set of characteristics that distinguish who is and isn't a "Christian".

For me, it's for life because I was indwelled with the Spirit and have permanent Mystical Faculties such as timelessness, Love of everyone, transcendence, etc.

On top of that, if you see paintings of the saints, there is a Halo around them. The Halo represents expanded Awareness/Consciousness, something that happens in solitude, grace, Holy Spirit, etc. There are a large number of "Christians" who do not have the expanded Halo-like Awareness/Consciousness and are still works in progress

By the way, I've met a Buddhist who had this Halo-like expanded Awareness/Consciousness and saw 2 orbs of light above his head, and who was more like a love filled Christ like being, than most Christians I ever met. Makes you think then, who really is and isn't a Christian.

How much of your faith have you shared lately? How much fruit have you bared lately? How many have you watered, plowed and birthed into the Kingdome lately?

Is this what it's all about? Sharing my faith? Because it's never enough no matter how many people you reach. I have my posts on various forums, a book in the works, youtube vids that I share, with emails from people all around the world, and am working on starting a long term desert like retreat in the Appallachians ...but none of that matters....all works are like dirty rags. Best I can do is continue working on less me, and more Christ in me. There is a Nondual state in which you are in Union with God and God's will operates through you spontaneously. That is the best thing to do, become an Enlightened Saint in Union with God and be a living example of Christ in you. I'm still a work in progress

Yes Christ went into the wilderness in preparation for His earthly ministry. How many monks leave the sanctuary of the four wall of the monastery to go into all the world and preach the gospel of Christ?

Monks hold retreats, give spiritual counsel to the public, visit the dying in the hospitals, write about their own experiences, and even their prayers alone cover massive amounts of the world.

One monk once coplained to God in solitude, "What is the use of praying if you know all already." And that night he was pulled out of his body and taken to a desert father who was praying constantly with all his heart and soul. He saw those prayers spreading throughout Infinity and space and changing multitudes of things in the world. After that he was convinced.

I don’t believe that I have advocated anyone listening to someone who has come out of seminary training have I?

I'm just saying it to make a point. From my own experience, I was brought up in Evangelical Christianity and re-baptised. Once I got the Holy Spirit experience and inner revelations and went to the head Pastor w/ my exeriences to ask him about them, he scratched his head in confusion.

Then I went to a Theologian, who has multi-best selling books published, tours the globe getting paid for speaking engagements, is a Phd, and is heard speaking sermons heard nation wide on Christian radio stations.........went to him with my Holy Spirit experiences, and he scratched his head in confusion.

Then I went to a monastery and talked to an Abbott. He smiled, shook my hand, and said "Welcome to the Divine Mysteries of God. All of us here, have gone through what you have, or are currently going through what you have." Then was introduced to the Desert Father's/Monks/Hermits/Mystics all of who directly & experieintially undergo direct Spiritual death and rebirth eventually leading into Sainthood and Union w/ God.

So we have all these Mega-Churches and biggest denominations who have blind leaders leading the blind followers. It's sad and goes on at such a high percentage in the West, that it's scary........

Jesus came to teach a way back to God through grace, ego death, Holy Spirit, Enlightenment, and Union w/ God. Instead, it has become entirely something else that misses the original point

reply to post by dominicus


It is easy to see your fundamental errors.

1 - You claim you are not preaching from an ego-centric point of view; but clearly, you are preaching just as much from the fundie "I'm right and you are wrong" perspective. How can you presume to judge the operation of the Holy Spirit amongst the multitude of the saints throughout all denominations across the world? Which leads me neatly into my next point:

2 - You err greatly when talking about "getting the Holy Spirit". No my friend, it is the Lord who gets you, NOT the other way round.

You are basically preaching monasticism as the only true expression of Christianity. However, under the Lord's Truth, I tell you that there are many expressions of the narrow path - just as the Human Body is not just the pineal gland, neither is the Body of Christ simply a grouping of obscure and unreachable monks tucked away in caves in the sandy recesses of the world.

Trust me - the original message was all about social care and activities amongst those who did not believe, in order that by their witness, others would believe.

The time is coming when all false perceptions regarding the nature of Truth will be refuted - the Way will be clear once again. But don't presume to teach others when you are clearly as dogmatic as those you lay claim to be capable of correcting.

So monasticism is the real Christianity. Ok, except Jesus wasn't stuffed into a monastery amoungst dusty old books and brewing wine and beer all the time. What i find interesting is how close to the rituals of the greek god Dionysus the R.C.C. and E.O.C. has come. Most of those priests can't even deliver a Mass without getting drunk off their asses first and you know what Paul said about drunkeness leading to debauchery, and then all these confessions of drunken priests molesting altar boys.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment

1 - You claim you are not preaching from an ego-centric point of view;

Are you aware of your own ego? If yes, then do you know the part of you that is aware of the ego? Do you know where the ego arises from and returns to?

That's what I am preaching, things that have been revealed to me through the Spirit. The things that are prior to the ego and how the ego can die.

but clearly, you are preaching just as much from the fundie "I'm right and you are wrong" perspective.

Actually the "I'm right and you are wrong" debates are egocentric wastes of time and a trap. What I'm saying is: This is how it is for the most part. Now go see for yourself if it is so experentially. If you don't agree, it is because you haven't seen it and are now assuming/speculating. If you do agree, it is because you have seen it

How can you presume to judge the operation of the Holy Spirit amongst the multitude of the saints throughout all denominations across the world?

Because we have their testimonies. NT, Philokhalia, Cloud of Unknowing, Way of The Pilgrim, Ladder of Divine Ascent, various writings of the Saints across time and both east & west, all in agreement

Which leads me neatly into my next point: 2 - You err greatly when talking about "getting the Holy Spirit". No my friend, it is the Lord who gets you, NOT the other way round.

Not according to this:

John 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

"getting" is the same as the Father "giving" you the Spirit.

You are basically preaching monasticism as the only true expression of Christianity.

Wrong!!! Did you read the other posts so as to not take things out of context. Check out what I said in the 10th post down:

The Body of Christ is made up of Evangelism and Monkhood, hermits, mystics, saints......

Not to mention the thief on the cross who gets saved last second simply for believing. Although that can also be used as a cop out and justify all sorts of illicit life style choices.

However, under the Lord's Truth, I tell you that there are many expressions of the narrow path - just as the Human Body is not just the pineal gland, neither is the Body of Christ simply a grouping of obscure and unreachable monks tucked away in caves in the sandy recesses of the world.

I agree. I never said otherwise. The house holder w/ kids, bills, jobs is also the body of Christ. The Monks, however, are working on spiritual perfection by giving up the ego and becoming more indwelled with the Spirit and Union in the vein of "not I, but Christ in me."

Trust me - the original message was all about social care and activities amongst those who did not believe, in order that by their witness, others would believe.

I do not trust Man ....only God. Social care & activities were performed after Jesus spent massive amounts of time in Solitude. Just like he took the Disciples out of the World, taught them for a while, kept them in solitude, waited til they received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, then they performed social care & activities.

The time is coming when all false perceptions regarding the nature of Truth will be refuted

Truth is Union w/ God. A direct experience. The letter killeth, but the Spirit Giveth Life.

the Way will be clear once again. But don't presume to teach others when you are clearly as dogmatic as those you lay claim to be capable of correcting.

IF I have dogma, then my number 1 teaching is to let go of all dogma and to experience directly and see for your self that Union, Enlightenment, The Spirit, and Ego Death are real

Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by dominicus

 

Going off and being a monk, a life of isolation is a waste to what Christ has called us too and that is evangelism. We are to be living testaments to the world of the lost no hold up some place out of sight of the world. Both the East and the West has corrupted the Word of God and filled it with human traditions and vain prayers

You think you know, you believe you have only one life to give, you are incapable of seeing what part of the path you are working on , and you are going to tell people they are all the same ?

It is hilarious that all these religions with their blanket beliefs think that everyone needs and must be held to the exact same goal.

reply to post by dominicus


You are speaking the Truth here, I was baptised a catholic but feel something is wrong with the way the west practices Christianity and am no exception to this failing, Also the Syriac orthodox church which was not a part of the conclave of Nicenea may hold some interest for you as many of the things of which you speak are of them, they remained independent until a schism were part of there church joined the catholic (probably due to some doctrinal disagreement with the Greek orthodox and there willingness to look the other way with the catholic), still there are faithful saint's and hermit's, martyrs and teachers in all the churches, I would point out Francis of Assisi amongst other's though the Greek orthodox has more genuine claim than the catholic the Syriac has more genuine claim than them.
Still you speak truth but what a hard form of Christianity to follow.

The "purest form of Christianity" was the one that ditched all of the pagan practices and did what God/Jesus told them to do. God boldly prohibited divination and mysticism, that's why it's important that Christians know their Bible, otherwise they'll be deceived by the desires of their heart instead of what's true for disobeying his word and his will.