Why being Gay IS a Natural thing

Whoooohaaaa.....

I was off for about a whole night and see that this argument is still going on with more and more homophobic or should i say MACHO posts... (understandable if you were brought up to be untolerant and were brainwashed beyond belief by your elders or by whatever those religious "preachers" were pushing down your families or your own necks... (they did a good job didn't they?))...) but those opinions and statements are apparently your well staked out opinions which are understood and respected... I am sad for your children and childrens children... (That is my P.O.V and i will not take it any further for arguments sake...)

What really saddens me is the fact that WE... YES WE, meaning all of us distunguished members of ATS are here because we DENY IGNORANCE!!!... BUT... still there are people that believe ignorance is the best argument!...

How come that so many people (especially on this thread) lack the amount of respect and open mindness that our community (ATS) deserves?

How many of you have read each and every one of the posts here???

How many of you will read this post?... Not many thats for sure, because some people are just so close minded and believe that NOTHING should change and just post on a whim!

I would love and be sincerely interested to read the heartfelt definition of the word TOLERANCE from some of the posters here??? (BUT probably this definition will only be displayed and posted by those who are of open minds.)

Kindest respects

Rodinus

Originally posted by pyramid head
reply to post by Djayed

 

Personally I could care less who people want to have sex with has long as its legal. But this non-sense that I have to except its natural is ridiculous. The only reason homosexuality is still not classified has a mental disorder is because of lobbyists. In the early 70's in the DSM, it was classified has a mental disorder, then taken out due to political pressure, not science.

Biologically homosexuality can not genetically exist, since they can not reproduce it would have been bred out in our earlier ancestors. Those not relying on social norms or some sort of acceptable behavioral construct. There is nothing biologically advantageous about it. The only way you can argue that there is some biological relevance is that it is a defect. But if that was the case we would know what gene, and this discussion would not be relevant.

You also have the problem with other sexual behavior disorders, not those of the good type, pedophilia, rapists, sexual sadism. If homosexuality is something you are "born with", why are these sexual behaviors excluded and treated differently, legality aside of course. You can not logically say you have no control over your sexual behavior then say that somehow people with these other disorders do. Why would someone "choose" to be a pedophile?

As someone involved in science, it annoys me when i am told to accept things that are not true, or have zero evidence to back it up. It is unscientific to accept something based on political correctness. Sometimes reality is not what we always want to hear.

You bring up an interesting point.

Bill

Eating your prey alive is also very natural. People try to overemphasize the role of 'nature' in human behavior. Humans are spiritual and social beings, and their bodily functions are secondary. Instincts cannot tell you what is right and what is wrong, all they do is pursue pleasure and avoid pain. Another point worth making is that trying to broaden definitions does support diversity, instead it reduces diversity, but not so many people understand that.

reply to post by pyramid head


It's also not included in the DSM because it doesn't fit with the other paraphilias at all. The DSM IV-TR defines a paraphilia as:

...recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors generally involving 1) nonhuman objects, 2) the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner, or 3) children or other nonconsenting persons that occur over a period of at least 6 months

Homosexuals are human, consenting adults that don't require suffering or humiliation to become aroused. It simply does not meet the qualifications to be a paraphilia.

For someone who works in science your knowledge of behavioral genetics is lacking. With rare exceptions like Huntington's chorea genetics is never an all or nothing thing. Behavior is the confluence of genetics and environment. The more genetically predisposed one is to a behavior the less environmental stimuli is required for the behavior to emerge. So it's possible for a person to have some of the genes for homosexuality but never have the behavior emerge. Thus they pass on the genes to the next generation. Plus there are many of cases of people who have hid their homosexuality until after they had a family. I have to say it's quote ridiculous to think that something as complex as sexuality would be found on a single gene. As far as I know we have not found all of the genes that contribute to any complex behavior. So why are you surprised we haven't found the genes that contribute to homosexuality?

Then we come to your claims regarding the paraphilias. The difference between homosexuals and rapists or sadists is that rapists and sadists are generally seeking power over their victim. These paraphilias are natural because they are products of the brain. However, what makes them disorders is the fact that they are behaviors that cause suffering in others. There is no victim in homosexuality. There is very much a victim in rape. No one may choose to be a pedophile but at the same time most pedophiles will recognize what they're doing is wrong.

I came across this which may be of some interest to "some" of you on this thread :

In itself, homosexuality is as limiting as heterosexuality: the ideal should be to be capable of loving a woman or a man; either, a human being, without feeling fear, restraint, or obligation.

- Simone de Beauvoir


Homosexuality is god's way of insuring that the truly gifted aren't burdened with children.

- Sam Austin


I don't think homosexuality is a choice. Society forces you to think it's a choice, but in fact, it's in one's nature.
The choice is whether one expresses one's nature truthfully or spends the rest of one's life lying about it.

- Marlo Thomas

Thread on Biological exuberance here which has some pretty interesting links concerning animal homosexuality

: flatrock.org.nz...

Kindest respects

Rodinus

Conservatives live in a Stalin like situation: when we speak truth, the system attacks us; but, we must courageously speak and suffer the consequences just as Jesus, Socrates and Solzhenitsyn did. Homosexuality is not gay anymore than Hell is a Happyland and the line between it and pedophilia is so thin and transparent it only exist in theory. The country is going exactly as God showed David Wilkerson it would in The Vision (1973). Get off The Long Black Train before it gets to liberal Happyland.

Now with all this being said let’s talk about how Homosexuality has actually help control population in not only Animals but also People. Without having homosexuals all throughout history, earth would have reach catastrophic levels of overpopulation long ago, all of our natural resources would have been gone, and we wouldn't be sitting here debating civil rights in the 21st century.

Homosexuals only account for less than 10% of the world's population. That's both men and women. That mean's if the 5% of that who are men, and the 5% who are women, suddenly became straight and they all mated with each other, that would only be a 5% increase in population. I doubt homosexuality has made a dent on population control.

Originally posted by Jay-morris

Originally posted by Fraudfinder
reply to post by St0mP121

 

I agree 100% but I would also like to point out that the creator of all things, God also has an opinion on this subject matter:

Leviticus 20:13 - New International Version (©2011)
"'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense.

A capital offense in the eyes of God. NO excuses. No way to talk this away.

REPENT AND ASK GOD FOR FORGIVENESS

May all who read this: Accept Jesus of Nazareth as your Christ, Savior and Lord. In Jesus name be clean of homosexual lust. AMEN

Oh give me a break with the fairy tales. If we still went by what the bible says, then alot of people would be put to death over stupid things. If, by chance that everything in the bible is real, then i would gladly go to hell, rather than worship a primitive, backward, un caring, aragont god. You think its just a coinsidence that God sounds like a primitive human? No, its bcause primitive humans wrote the bible.

From all of the misspelled words I assume you are young......... maybe a teenager?

No one can make you believe in a God...and neither will I.

Like I said before.......not everyone is destine for heaven.

Hell is full of believers and non-believers. It takes much more than to simply JUST believe.

No worries you will have your break........ in hell.

Originally posted by Rodinus
I came across this which may be of some interest to "some" of you on this thread :

In itself, homosexuality is as limiting as heterosexuality: the ideal should be to be capable of loving a woman or a man; either, a human being, without feeling fear, restraint, or obligation.

- Simone de Beauvoir


Homosexuality is god's way of insuring that the truly gifted aren't burdened with children.

- Sam Austin


I don't think homosexuality is a choice. Society forces you to think it's a choice, but in fact, it's in one's nature.
The choice is whether one expresses one's nature truthfully or spends the rest of one's life lying about it.

- Marlo Thomas

Thread on Biological exuberance here which has some pretty interesting links concerning animal homosexuality

: flatrock.org.nz...

Kindest respects

Rodinus

edit on 1-7-2013 by Rodinus because: Re-formatted phrases

But the people you mention CAN NOT save you from hell. They did not create life; actually they are dead.

God is not dead. Turn away from man's teachings and turn to the teachings of God.

May God come to you and reveal himself to you.

AMEN

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak
Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

Heterosexuality is naturally occuring. Just like rape, murder, theft, and cannibalism. Therefore comparable. I am smart person. Listen me.

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak
Rape, murder, theft, cannibalism--all naturally occurring also.

Don't forget bigotry and prejudice.

Now you're getting into judgement of others thoughts and opinions.

Homosexual behaviors are acts.

Judging acts must be done, especially if physical harm has been done to another. Judging others thoughts or opinions means you must be confident of your ability as a mind reader--something I'm not ready to concede to anyone.

Hey. Instead of speaking cryptically to guard the fact that your opinions have no base in reality and follow zero logic, say something useful.

Try to contribute, rather than being an annoying ass.

Thanks.

reply to post by Rodinus


Same could be said of pedophilia and bestiality....and I am sure groups like NAMBLA are loving the recent Supreme Court decisions. Now I know this isn't going with the topic of "being natural" but I am sure the Mormons are liking it as well. You can expect them to raising a stink shortly about being able to marry to as many people as they want.

(and I know the gay community will go well those conditions are simply not right, but isn't that the exact same attitude that Christians have towards homosexuals?)

Originally posted by Xcalibur254
reply to post by pyramid head

 

It's also not included in the DSM because it doesn't fit with the other paraphilias at all. The DSM IV-TR defines a paraphilia as:

...recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors generally involving 1) nonhuman objects, 2) the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner, or 3) children or other nonconsenting persons that occur over a period of at least 6 months

Homosexuals are human, consenting adults that don't require suffering or humiliation to become aroused. It simply does not meet the qualifications to be a paraphilia.

For someone who works in science your knowledge of behavioral genetics is lacking. With rare exceptions like Huntington's chorea genetics is never an all or nothing thing. Behavior is the confluence of genetics and environment. The more genetically predisposed one is to a behavior the less environmental stimuli is required for the behavior to emerge. So it's possible for a person to have some of the genes for homosexuality but never have the behavior emerge. Thus they pass on the genes to the next generation. Plus there are many of cases of people who have hid their homosexuality until after they had a family. I have to say it's quote ridiculous to think that something as complex as sexuality would be found on a single gene. As far as I know we have not found all of the genes that contribute to any complex behavior. So why are you surprised we haven't found the genes that contribute to homosexuality?

Then we come to your claims regarding the paraphilias. The difference between homosexuals and rapists or sadists is that rapists and sadists are generally seeking power over their victim. These paraphilias are natural because they are products of the brain. However, what makes them disorders is the fact that they are behaviors that cause suffering in others. There is no victim in homosexuality. There is very much a victim in rape. No one may choose to be a pedophile but at the same time most pedophiles will recognize what they're doing is wrong.

Please dont insult my intelligence, you have no idea what you are talking about and sound very ignorant. What you were attempting to explain is known as recessive traits, I'm not doing to give you a class on genetics, its not something you can just copy and paste from wiki. You also didnt fully read or understand the sentence addressing social construct in relation to passing on genetics. Sexual genetics effect some usual markers, mainly hormones;look, there would be alot to explain has far as genetic arguments, but that argument would be very one-sided so there is no point.

I figured someone would respond and compare the morality of different sexual behaviors in an attempt to invalidate my argument. Again, if you finished reading the sentence that aspect was addressed. Morality is not the issue, the behaviors are sexual in nature, and abnormal. That is their relationship. If your are going to justify one behavior has being natural and something you are born with, logically other sexual behaviors that are abnormal would then have to wonder if they are of the same origin. Why cant one argue their abnormal sexual behaviors are inherent in their DNA, and thus a result of being born? Reasoning that because one is morally superior to the other and using said reasoning to justify it being biological over the other is non-sense and illogical.

I have 2 questions.

Can a man get another man pregnant?

Can a woman get another woman pregnant?

Yes or no questions,

Thanks!

It's ridiculous to claim homosexuality is purely a choice for multiple reasons, not just in that various animal species clearly display homosexual behavior.
1. Many would agree that pupil dilation and pupilary responses generally speaking are a rather subconscious eye behavior that isn't really controlled by conscious will (for the most part). It is said that when pupils dilate, it indicates sexual attraction. In a rather recent study conducted by Cornell University researchers, they showed that heterosexual men for the most part had strong pupil dilation responses to women (but not to other men) yet the bisexual men had pupilary responses to both sexes, and well the homosexual men's pupils dilated for other men (but not for women).
Pupil Dilation Reveals Sexual Orientation

2. Studies have been conducted that show that homosexual men indeed respond differently to pheromones found in the sweat of other men than heterosexual men do (more specifically, a chemical found in testosterone). Homosexual men had brain reactions to this chemical occur similar to how heterosexual women would react to the same chemical. A very similar phenomenon occurs for homosexual women in how they respond to specific chemicals found in female sweat, which of course differs from how heterosexual women would react to the same chemicals.

"Sexy" Smells Different for Gay, Straight Men

Lesbians Respond Differently to Human Pheromones

3. Do we consciously choose what hair color, skin tone, eye color, body type, etc. we prefer? No we don't. What makes sexual orientation much different if at all?

4. Why would someone want to choose to be homosexual or even bisexual given that there is so much discrimination people of these orientations face? Why would anyone want to choose to be something that gives them LESS of an advantage in society generally speaking rather than something that gives them MORE of an advantage? It's not logical to choose a homosexual or bisexual lifestyle based on the survival instinct, biologically or socially.

As far as "choice" goes, I believe certain experiences can merely confirm our orientation even if there were no obvious "signs" beforehand of having a particular sexual preference.

reply to post by Djayed


many animals also consume their young in a natural process. Please use a different argument

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by spirited75

 

This conceiving and having a child will never occur in a homosexual union.

Every one knows how babies are made. Thanks anyways for being the millionth person to say it on ATS.

Homosexual couples can and do have children. Insemination. Surrogate mother.

homosexual couples do not have babies,
and I am defining the term "having babies" as
one of the two persons in the relationship
providing a sperm and the other providing an egg.

Homosexual couples get a baby that some
heterosexual persons "have the baby" and in
getting the baby that way the HOMOSEXUAL COUPLE
get it UNNATURALLY.

they have babies
UNNATURALLY.

And Your use of the obtuse terms that I am "the millionth
person on ATS to ..."
is such an exaggeration that it is a lie.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by knightrider078

 

Neither is the computer you just used to say that to us!

"unnatural" is perfectly fine when it suits YOUR needs eh?

I hope you never have a wife that requires a C section. Hospitals tend to employ sciency stuff.

edit on 1-7-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

Nice point you have here

reply to post by Fraudfinder

From all of the misspelled words I assume you are young......... maybe a teenager? 

No one can make you believe in a God...and neither will I. 

Like I said before.......not everyone is destine for heaven. 

Hell is full of believers and non-believers. It takes much more than to simply JUST believe. 

No worries you will have your break........ in hell.

So, im a kid, just because of a few spelling mistakes LOL
You try writing fast on a crappy phone.

And if your God is real, i will gladly go to hell. In fact, coming
to think of it, is the devil really bad? Considering it is the devil
that punishes the sinners, not God!

reply to post by Jay-morris

I wouldn't waste my time on this if I were you. Oh no, I might go to hell because I don't actually believe in the Christian version of what's considered hell. To be honest, I think this lifetime here on Earth is hell (kinda is if you think about it)...