serious question for Christians

Ok by way of background, I was brought up in a religious household, my family remain church going folk whilst I do not, I live my life my way, believe im a good person etc and that the dos and donts in the bible dont really fit in with how i like to enjoy my life.

Anywho, I was at my dads on a recent trip home and he stuck a DVD on of a guy who claims to have had an outer body experience in hell (23 minutes in hell) and part of it he was saying how he "discussed" his religion with a talk show host (who he won over in terms of his questioning). However, this lead me to ask a theoretical question of my dad (which id not thought of previously) who couldnt answer and is merely one of interest to me. I can understand the theory of intelligent design given the complexity of our universe and also acknowledge evolution ( I do not accept that these are 2 mutually exclusive theories as why could one not create a species which went on to evolve in its changing habitat but thats another topic.)

My question to the Christian believers on this site (yes I know atheistic views so I dont wish to draw on the same old "invisible man in the sky yadda yadda" response) If, as is preached, the only way to God is through his son Jesus, who died on the cross, at circa 33AD........ how did the likes of Moses, Noah, Abraham etc who lived hundreds/thousands of years before Christ arrived, make it to heaven?? seriously this means either there was a second way (and so what was it/why n/a now?) or did they linger in pergatory which i dont recall ever hearing about in the non Catholic churches i attended as a child.


Discuss

reply to post by jammybunn


I'm surprised that your Dad who is a churchy person couldn't respond.
Jesus was a Jew.

Does that answer your question?

reply to post by jammybunn


Before Jesus rose from the tomb, Sheol (aka hell) was the resting place of all people who had died.

Every spirit would get their just deserts in this realm. So all good people Moses etc would exist in a paradise amongst themselves.

All evil spirits like Ghengis Khan and other murderers would suffer experiencing a taste of their own medicine.

After Jesus rose from the tomb, he took all good spirits with Him.

This is why Sheol is now more commonly known as Hell, where no goodness remains.

Secondly, the only way into a paradise is through Jesus Christ.

reply to post by jammybunn


With regards to your first paragraph, why would a complex universe that had a creator that appeared out of non-existence make more sense to you than just a complex universe that appeared out of non-existence?

As for the second one, if you believe in that sort of thing, I'm sure the concept of time is meaningless outside of this physical existence, so Moses et al could easily have been in a spiritual cosmic waiting room waiting for Jesus to appear on the scene.

reply to post by jammybunn

how did the likes of Moses, Noah, Abraham etc who lived hundreds/thousands of years before Christ arrived, make it to heaven?? seriously this means either there was a second way (and so what was it/why n/a now?) or did they linger in pergatory which i dont recall ever hearing about in the non Catholic churches i attended as a child.

Back in the days of Moses and Abraham, they had "Paradise" to go to if they followed God.

The God in the Old Testament is the same as the God in the New Testament, but they knew him by a different name.

When Jesus came once to die for all sins, it covered the sins of those who lived previously to him in the flesh.

The Bible isn't explicit about whether or not those living in "Paradise" were released to heaven after Jesus' death, but rest assured they are in a safe place until the time where God will be residing with man on the new heaven/earth after the time of the Millennium.

reply to post by jammybunn


Very good question, I have an answer! To put it simply, you have Jesus in the center of "time" [I know not accurate but for sake of illustration] The ones born before Jesus put their faith into the future, when a "Redeemer" would be born. Those born after Jesus, put their faith into a "Redeemer" born in the past. Faith in the future, or faith in the past, based on when you were born.

Those born before Jesus' sacrifice would go into a limbo of sorts, where they were stored away in a place called "Abraham's boozum" which basically meant they were in an oblivion until Jesus paid the price. I dont have much time, I could post some verses to prove this, but generally following old testament rules and having faith in God in those "pre-Jesus" days was how you got to heaven, today you simply accept Him and have faith in Jesus to get there. Good question again, hope this clears it up some. ; )

reply to post by jammybunn


They didn't. No man has ascended into heaven.

reply to post by jammybunn


Im not a "christian" but have you noticed only people with preexisting notions of "hell" ever experience these OOB trips to said firey pit?

Hell doesn't exist... Its nothing more then a mythological fear tactic used to control the populous

Well the answer is they got to heaven or paradise by following The LAW.

See the words Old and new testament.. the word Testament means Covenant.. a contract between God and His people. In the Old testament the Hebrews were under the contract God made with him through Moses when God dictated The Law to Moses. These were a series of do's and don't Hebrews were expected to follow. A huge part of this was sacrificing a lamb to God and doing some other things to make them clean from any past sins that would separate them from God and heaven.

But This wasn't working because the people just plain could not stick with this list of do's and dont's. Therefore God deemed since his contract with the people wasn't working, he'd make a new way for them to get to heaven - by sending his son which could be the sacrificial lamb for all once and forever. No more would they have to follow The Law and try to keep all these long lists of do's and don't. Jesus was the new lamb and accepting him was the new way to go.. the new covenant with the people. This covenant/contract was first Only for Jews but them it became offered to gentiles after the Holy Ghost showed up in the 2nd chapter of Acts.

reply to post by Akragon

 

Im not a "christian" but have you noticed only people with preexisting notions of "hell" ever experience these OOB trips to said firey pit?

These people, (in)famous world leaders like Stalin found out that Heaven and Hell exists when it was too late. Stalin had a temper tantrum and waved his fist at the ceiling. Silly little man.

www.pdegraaf.com...

Hell doesn't exist... Its nothing more then a mythological fear tactic used to control the populous

With ignorant sentences like this, this is why ATS is not on the NWO's hit-list as mentioned on BeforeItsNews.

Originally posted by jammybunn
Ok by way of background, I was brought up in a religious household, my family remain church going folk whilst I do not, I live my life my way, believe im a good person etc and that the dos and donts in the bible dont really fit in with how i like to enjoy my life.

Anywho, I was at my dads on a recent trip home and he stuck a DVD on of a guy who claims to have had an outer body experience in hell (23 minutes in hell) and part of it he was saying how he "discussed" his religion with a talk show host (who he won over in terms of his questioning). However, this lead me to ask a theoretical question of my dad (which id not thought of previously) who couldnt answer and is merely one of interest to me. I can understand the theory of intelligent design given the complexity of our universe and also acknowledge evolution ( I do not accept that these are 2 mutually exclusive theories as why could one not create a species which went on to evolve in its changing habitat but thats another topic.)

My question to the Christian believers on this site (yes I know atheistic views so I dont wish to draw on the same old "invisible man in the sky yadda yadda" response) If, as is preached, the only way to God is through his son Jesus, who died on the cross, at circa 33AD........ how did the likes of Moses, Noah, Abraham etc who lived hundreds/thousands of years before Christ arrived, make it to heaven?? seriously this means either there was a second way (and so what was it/why n/a now?) or did they linger in pergatory which i dont recall ever hearing about in the non Catholic churches i attended as a child.


Discuss

Excellent questions placed in the proper manner to reply. But the truth of these things is far more in depth than a 5000 character limit.

The Earth is billions of years old, scripture supports this truth, several thousands of years ago a great spiritual war took place in the spirit realm (non-physical), the result of which spilled over into the physical realm and left Earth in total destruction, with no life on it (ELE).

About 6000 years ago, God began to re-create the Earth so that it would be suitable for life once again, so that God could create physical mankind upon it. In 7 literal days, God re-created the Earth with life forms and processes required for the creation of mankind, on the 6th of 7 days mankind was created (Adam).

For 6000 years mankind has been given an age in which they are designed and meant to determine for themselves what is "right" and what is "wrong"; what is "true" and what is "false"; what is "good" and what is "evil". As such we created our own governments, religions, cultures, customs, diets, and skills around that self determined image. This 6000 year age of mankind's self rule is NOT the primary age set aside for the salvation of mankind by God plan. There is far more to God perfect plan then this present age. In this age it was God's purpose to call out of the world a very small number of individual minds for a great purpose. 144,000 individual human beings born of mankind were "called out" (ecclsia/church = greek for "called out ones") of the ways of this present age to build a relationship with God Almighty.

The 144,000 are called from all the eras of the age of mankind's self rule, they are separated into 2 groups through a metaphor found in the Feast of Pentecost by 2 loafs baked WITH LEVEN. Leven (which puffs up/pride) represents sin, these 2 loafs would be offered up and accepted by God even though they sinned (were born of man, and not perfect). 1 loaf represents those called before the church era (pre-Pentecost 31AD) those include Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Elijah etc.; they were called out of this age to be worked with directly from God and learn how to think in unity and oneness with His ways. The other loaf represents those called out of the age during the church era (after Pentecost 31AD) they include the Apostles and all those in the Church of God over 2000 years.

Just as the metaphor represents, on Pentecost, the day of Jesus Christ's return the 144,000 will be resurrected to immortal spiritual life and join the family (Elohim) of God, as brothers and sisters with Christ and full children of God forever. That is the purpose for all that have ever been born.

In this 6000 years; only 144,000 qualified to be ressurected in the future, none have been thus far; none are "in heaven" now. They will join Jesus Christ as he returns on Pentecost.

Then will begin 1000 years of the reign of the Kingdom of God on Earth, only one government wil exist and one religion, mankind will rebuild this planet in ways we cannot dream of in this selfish age of man.

After the 1000 years have finished, all 12+ billion human beings that have lived and died in this age not knowing God's truth or learning God's ways, will be given a second physical life to live when all is revealed in perfection!

GB

Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by jammybunn

 

They didn't. No man has ascended into heaven.

This is 100% correct in spirit and in truth. Until the day of the return of Jesus Christ, they remain dead and in the Earth to this day.

With the exception of Jesus Christ, born of man but with God's Holy Spirit (mind) permanently dweling in his own, living a perfect life and ascending after 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours) dead in the Earth. Having died on Passover as the Passover sacrifice from God for Man, and being ressurected at the end of the Sabbath day. Received on the day of the wafe sheif offerring as the unlevened offereing accepted by God, that serves as the begining of the count to Pentecost (count 50). A day which represents the acceptance of levened bread by God in His family Elohim.

God Bless,

Originally posted by Rapha

reply to post by Akragon

 

Im not a "christian" but have you noticed only people with preexisting notions of "hell" ever experience these OOB trips to said firey pit?

These people, (in)famous world leaders like Stalin found out that Heaven and Hell exists when it was too late. Stalin had a temper tantrum and waved his fist at the ceiling. Silly little man.

www.pdegraaf.com...

Hell doesn't exist... Its nothing more then a mythological fear tactic used to control the populous

With ignorant sentences like this, this is why ATS is not on the NWO's hit-list as mentioned on BeforeItsNews.

Lol... Hell can't co-exist with the idea of a loving merciful creator...

Its simple logic... A loving father would not torture his children...

Only humans would create such mythological nonsense

Kinda like how we used to burn witches at the steak...

reply to post by ElohimJD

After the 1000 years have finished, all 12+ billion human beings that have lived and died in this age not knowing God's truth or learning God's ways, will be given a second physical life to live when all is revealed in perfection!

Do you have scripture for that?

Originally posted by Akragon
Lol... Hell can't co-exist with the idea of a loving merciful creator...

Its simple logic... A loving father would not torture his children...

lol

A loving Father will allow his child to hurt themselves if it is the only way for the child to be convicted his choices, against the rules of the loving Father; lead to pain and suffering. Most true lessons in life are learned "the hard way".

We must be fully convicted that "my way" apart from God's leads to the present evils in the World. It is not God that tortures, man; but MAN that tortures MAN, by each man believing himself to be "right" in his own eyes.

God Bless,

Originally posted by Deetermined

Do you have scripture for that?

yes sir.

REV 20
"4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands (the 144,000). And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again (all the dead will have a second life, they will "live again") until the thousand years were finished (after the 1000 years). This is the first resurrection (the 144,000). 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection (the 144,000). Over such the second death has no power (because they are already immortal spirit beings in the Elohim of God, they do not need a second life, for which you have the potential for a second death), but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (after the 1000 years, Satan and his host are permanently destroyed).

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, (all mankind that lived and died not having entered into judgeming by their calling from God) and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades (grave) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

In order to have a second death, you must live a second life. During the era of God's plan called "The Great White Thrown Judgement" all mankind will live a second life with full understanding of this first life in the age of self determination, and the experience of their first death. God will use that memory to create the absolute contrast of ways of life, by remembering this hell hole of an age we are living in now, created by us; and comparrnig it to the paradise of a world run by God's laws, mankind will willingly choose to want to learn God's ways in order to produce everlasting peace and they will want to "think differently" (greek = repent).

If you choose the prooven path to peace, you will overcome your nature and qualify for Elohim as an immortal spirit being, a brother and sister to Christ, all living a second life will have a common goal and purpose, and God will be glorified in that day.

If after your second life you willingly choose "your way" over "God's way" your life will end never to be given life again (second death), this is a permanent sentance, because God cannot give the power of Elohim (all things placed under him) to thinkers who choose to go against God after having the proof of the fruit of both ways provided through God's perfect plan for the salvation of all mankind and the creation of billions in Elohim.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

In order to have a second death, you must live a second life.

I hate to break this to you, but the first death is the death of the body and the second death is the death of the soul, depending on how judgement goes after the death of the body.

Matthew 10:28

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

reply to post by ElohimJD


I could understand what you were saying if everyone was brought back during the Millennial period, but the Bible says that some won't be raised back to life until after it's over for final judgement.

During my fundamentalist Christian days there were two possible answers.

One was that by animal sacrifice (and an odd human, but that's another story) and observing the laws and rituals the Old Testament crowd gained salvation.

Another was that while Jesus was in the grave He actually went into hell and took out all the good souls.

Actually the sinner's prayer back then included this, and that one accepted Jesus who died for your sins and went to hell, and rose from the dead and then went to heaven.

That part is no longer commonly mentioned, so the theology has changed somewhat.

It crops up uncomfortably and occasionally though, although some now say that Jesus didn't go to "hell" (the place for Satan and demons), but He did indeed go to "Hades" (essentially the hellish realm for humans plagiarized from the pagans).
www.allaboutjesuschrist.org...

reply to post by jammybunn


This is the part where you search for the answer yourself. You won't get an easy, explain it all in a paragraph, answer. Read the books and come up with your own explanation. Don't rely on others for interpretations - they just want you to believe the way they do.