serious question for Christians

Text You are going by an old (now known to be baseless) theory to date the writing of Revelation. Today most New Testament scholars place it as the earliest book that is in the NT.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You could not be more wrong..

The first written letters of the NT are of Paul which date from AD 48 to AD 51 ----------------------
The last book of NT was Revelations which was written about AD 95 to AD 97------------------------------

reply to post by Seede

If everything in your life is either parables or symbols then tell me what 2nd Corinthians 15:44 means.

That was what I was explaining in my other post.

2 nd Corinthians 15: 44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

What does that mean? Another parable or symbol? When your body dies then tell me if anything is left of what I am right now. Is there any consciousness or spiritual body after I die or is that another symbol?

We only know for sure what the Bible tells us explicitly , and it doesn't go into the afterlife except that we are resurrected, like I already said. You are trying to extract more out of it than there is by treating it like it is a puzzle where if you are clever enough, you can figure it out.
What Paul was dealing with was people who didn't even believe that there was a resurrection, rather than people quizzing him on the particulars.
The question you are asking isn't answered by the text here. What it does say, I already explained. He is talking about who will be resurrected, and it is those with the spirit from above in them. That spirit is of God and comes to us as the spirit of Christ through our faith in Jesus.

By the way, where can I get all of your knowledge of whoever taught you and which bible do I use to check out all of this symbolic understanding that you have? You have yet to tell me your source of your knowing all of these symbols.

I use what is now being called the Bible Hub. For example, the verse that you quoted, go to, biblehub.com...
there are nine tabs above the verse and click on interlinear and you get the Greek version.
Where I got my knowledge stats with being born into a Seventh Day Adventist family and be confronted with apocalypticism in a serious way at a very early age, then spending fifty years reading whatever I could find on it to know as much as I could on the subject.
A good book to read might be The Reality of Apocalypse: Rhetoric and Politics in the Book of Revelation by L. Barr David, www.amazon.com...

reply to post by Seede

You could not be more wrong..

According to who?
I have read all the latest books on Revelation and they don't say that.
What you are citing is a theory that was come up with over a hundred years ago where they were looking for what they thought was the worse persecution of Christians by the Romans.
Now we know that it wasn't. The theory was that John was stressed out by the persecution and that was why he wrote the book. Now scholars think that he wrote because of a crises in doctrine in the early church based on things like what Revelation mentions, eating meat offered to idols.

Text How could Isaiah agree with 2 Peter? There is no record of 2 Peter ever being mentioned or quoted before the third century.

reply to post by jmdewey60


2nd Peter was written about AD 68 -- Not the third century as you have been taught.

The agreement was through prophecy on Isaiah's part. Isaiah prophesied and Peter agreed with his premise.

reply to post by Seede

2nd Peter was written about AD 68 -- Not the third century as you have been taught.

That would be a guess by fundamentalists who are figuring out when Peter probably died.
It is not based on the actual history of the text showing up in Christian literature.
And no one is "teaching" me these things, they are things I find myself in very serious academic books on biblical issues.

The agreement was through prophecy on Isaiah's part. Isaiah prophesied and Peter agreed with his premise.

2 Peter only uses a couple of the same words. 2 Peter does not quote Isaiah and say, "I agree with Isaiah".

Text You are just making this up. The OT knew three heavens and the NT knows seven. Read, Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, and the Gospel of Mark, by Michael Patella OSB.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Where can I find (in the bible) that the NT knows seven heavens? Would you please give me the source?

Where can I find (in the bible) that the old testament knows three heavens. Would you also give that source?

reply to post by Seede

Hello, read the book, if you want to know.
I gave you the title and author.
It's not an expensive book, you can get the paperback version from Amazon for like $13.

reply to post by jammybunn


The answer will vary, and in some respects can be extensive. And yet.. the fact is. .none of it will be conclusive or a perfect right on answer.. because the simple fact is... we don't know. The bible's smallest topic is death. Or rather, what happens after death. In the old testament there were rules to follow and only God's "Chosen" people to me, seemed like the ones who would make it into heaven. In the New Testament it was by faith of Jesus, because as he explained it, when we die, we will stand before God to account for our sins.. but because he died for those sins, then anyone who believed in that and had faith in him.. he will instead stand up and state "her/his sins belong to me, they are paid for already" But the bible is never clear, nor mentions those who didn't even know of Jesus or before him, etc. So, here is my own personal theory after reading the bible several times.

1. We are told that Jesus is the "word" of God.. and the term "word of God" shows up repeatedly in the OT. So, therefore, we know, or at least to me, it would seem that Jesus, Just as God and the Holy spirit, was always there.

2. There is a moment in the OT, where Saul is going to be heading into battle, and he goes to a fortune teller who calls Abraham up from his sleep, because Saul wants her to contact him so that he knows what he should do. Abraham admonishes him for waking him from his great sleep (death) and for seeking him out, rather than God. Saul then loses the battle, because he did not have faith in God. This is one part of where the belief of psychics and fortune tellers being "ungodly" comes from. Because you should seek out God and have faith in him for your life path other than a fortune teller. Anyway.. we see here, that it appears that Abraham was "sleeping' and called up to speak to Saul.. not apparently, in Heaven.

3. Jesus told us.. no one, not even moses has been to heaven

4. In revelations there is actually a lot of info. We are told that in the end times, the dead in Christ (those who died believing in Christ) are called up when he returns and taken off to heaven right away. Immediately given white robes and then have to wait till the end times are over to get to go to the new Earth... So, therefore.. not in heaven immediately after they die.. only after Christ has come back. Many christians believe that when the end times come, we will also be "raptured" .. Revelations never actually says this.. it says 144,000 are taken, the rest are kept here to fight.

5. The bible then says.. in the very very end.. there is a multitude in heaven, such as never seen before... and those found in the book of life go on to heaven as well as the new earth, those not found.. are sent to hell. So again... no one in heaven yet.

6. Revelations also reads out.. that those who did not believe in Christ, but then do so after the great war between of the end times, are excepted. We then, apparently live here again on a new Earth, with a new Jerusalem, in peace for 1000 years.

7. Revelations than states.. that the devil again is let loose (have no idea why) and God finally finally ends everything. And everyone who was in the city and had faith in God and Jesus, go on to heaven... and those who did not, it states... that they are wiped out. If you read it, you will notice.. in ever ever says, that they go to hell to be tormented for all eternity, it states, clearly that the devil, all his cohorts and all those who completely turned from God and Jesus are as smoke.. as if they were never here at all, ever, they are just, gone. as if they were never made or born.

My advice? Read the OT, the NT and Revelations, you might get a completely different interpertation than me, as you can see from the answers.. everyone gets it differently. And, no two answers are alike.. because no one knows for sure, all we have to tell us, are religious books, those who have died, claimed to have seen something and have come back, and our own interpertation on what we read.

Text Hello, read the book, if you want to know. I gave you the title and author. It's not an expensive book, you can get the paperback version from Amazon for like $13.

reply to post by jmdewey60


@ jmdewey60

My question was ---

Where can I find (in the bible) that the NT knows seven heavens? Would you please give me the source?

Where can I find (in the bible) that the old testament knows three heavens. Would you also give that source?

You gave an incomplete and rude answer. My question still remains

Where (in the bible) does it say that the OT informs us of three heavens and the NT informs us of seven heavens????? I did not ask you for the source from any one else except the Bible. Can you back what you stated without another spiel of symbols or parables???

You made the statement as this being in the bible. Which bible are you talking about? Please reply in plain English so that I can verify your source.

Originally posted by jammybunn
Ok by way of background, I was brought up in a religious household, my family remain church going folk whilst I do not, I live my life my way, believe im a good person etc and that the dos and donts in the bible dont really fit in with how i like to enjoy my life.

Anywho, I was at my dads on a recent trip home and he stuck a DVD on of a guy who claims to have had an outer body experience in hell (23 minutes in hell) and part of it he was saying how he "discussed" his religion with a talk show host (who he won over in terms of his questioning). However, this lead me to ask a theoretical question of my dad (which id not thought of previously) who couldnt answer and is merely one of interest to me. I can understand the theory of intelligent design given the complexity of our universe and also acknowledge evolution ( I do not accept that these are 2 mutually exclusive theories as why could one not create a species which went on to evolve in its changing habitat but thats another topic.)

My question to the Christian believers on this site (yes I know atheistic views so I dont wish to draw on the same old "invisible man in the sky yadda yadda" response) If, as is preached, the only way to God is through his son Jesus, who died on the cross, at circa 33AD........ how did the likes of Moses, Noah, Abraham etc who lived hundreds/thousands of years before Christ arrived, make it to heaven?? seriously this means either there was a second way (and so what was it/why n/a now?) or did they linger in pergatory which i dont recall ever hearing about in the non Catholic churches i attended as a child.


Discuss

Jesus died and rose again to free the spirits held in prison (hell, also known as Abraham's bosom.) The souls that were to be saved were held there until Jesus could offer His life for their sins. They were saved because they followed and trusted in God and were waiting for the savior to come. It's that simple. Hope that answers the question for you.

Originally posted by Seede

Text Hello, read the book, if you want to know. I gave you the title and author. It's not an expensive book, you can get the paperback version from Amazon for like $13.

reply to post by jmdewey60

 

@ jmdewey60

My question was ---

Where can I find (in the bible) that the NT knows seven heavens? Would you please give me the source?

Where can I find (in the bible) that the old testament knows three heavens. Would you also give that source?

You gave an incomplete and rude answer. My question still remains

Where (in the bible) does it say that the OT informs us of three heavens and the NT informs us of seven heavens????? I did not ask you for the source from any one else except the Bible. Can you back what you stated without another spiel of symbols or parables???

You made the statement as this being in the bible. Which bible are you talking about? Please reply in plain English so that I can verify your source.

First heaven - the sky

Second heaven - outer space

Third heaven - outside the universe - God's domain

reply to post by Seede

You made the statement as this being in the bible. Which bible are you talking about? Please reply in plain English so that I can verify your source.

Here's what I said earlier:

"You are just making this up. The OT knew three heavens and the NT knows seven. Read, Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, and the Gospel of Mark, by Michael Patella OSB."

That was made in response to your statement:

". . . the third heaven in which it is expanding into is totally unknown to them."

I don't want to go into a big exposition on the "heavens" in the Bible. That is what books are for. You asked me earlier how I got my knowledge, and that is how, by reading books. It just so happens that there is a good book on the subject that I know about because I read it, and I'm giving you the title so that you can read it too. It was written by a Benedictine monk so it isn't some kind of atheist propaganda.
Read the book and then we can discuss it if you have further thoughts but I'm not going to type out the contents into a post.

reply to post by jammybunn

My question to the Christian believers on this site (yes I know atheistic views so I dont wish to draw on the same old "invisible man in the sky yadda yadda" response) If, as is preached, the only way to God is through his son Jesus, who died on the cross, at circa 33AD........ how did the likes of Moses, Noah, Abraham etc who lived hundreds/thousands of years before Christ arrived, make it to heaven?? seriously this means either there was a second way (and so what was it/why n/a now?) or did they linger in pergatory which i dont recall ever hearing about in the non Catholic churches i attended as a child.

Context is everything. Look at all the different denominations, all of them arguing over who is right/wrong, over minor details.

Being myself a Christian Mystic who has experienced a vast amount of Mystical experiences after getting re-baptized and getting the Holy Spirit, I have come to terms that Jesus really had to dumb down everything he taught, otherwise it would have been above everyone's head.

It's like a Quantum Physicist trying to explain his theories to 3rd graders. So what did he do? Parables.....

If I was to tell you there is only the timeless Now, transcendent, you are not who you think you are, You and the Father are One, if you go within and detach from ego, surrendering the eye reveals the Father, when Thine Eye (Awareness) is single, they whole body shall be full of the light of consciousness....

...your mind is going to make ideas and formulation about what was just said above in the form of speculations. However, I have directly experienced those things.

My take is that Jesus was dumbing it down to the masses, and said that the only way to the Father is through "Him" was a direct shot at the Jews he was preaching to, who thought that the only way to the Father was through animal sacrifices and trying to follow 800-some-odd rules/laws and piety....

In effect, he's telling the Jews, forget Judaism .......follow me and my way and I will show you the way to the Father. Jesus is a blueprint, a map on how to reach Union with God, Ego Death, and Enlightenment......

These are things which the Buddhists, Taoists, Native Americans, Hindu's, Yogi's where already working on. But the Jews were stuck in an archaic form of religious practice which was not producing Saints, Enlightened Beings, or Union with God.......

Also getting the Holy Spirit, (which usually comes after water Baptism, repentance, prayer, meditation) was possibly happening when John the Baptist was baptising people prior to Jesus actively teaching.....

Also there are other religions that discuss getting the Holy Spirit and ego death, (Kashmir Shaivism) and a few others..... there is also Baptism rituals in Buddhism!!!!!

Another thing Jesus said is that no one can enter Heaven unless they are Born Again. What Born Again means is that you go through a Mystical Ego Death, where the worldly programmed Ego self reference mechanism is slayed or killed off by the Holy SPirit/Grace, and you literally feel like you are born all over again spiritually. AT this point you are transformed and being to Love others, Not Judge, become selfless and ever increasing doses, and so on......

Christianity is all about Mystical transformation, spiritual rebirth, Ego Death, Grace, etc.......

reply to post by Akragon


I'm sorry, but that is simply not true, or a loaded reply.


Not true because.
A) Howard Storm was an atheist and did not believe in hell.

Loaded reply because
B) Almost everyone has head of a "hell" in their lifetime, so almost everyone has a "preexisting notion" of hell. (I say almost everyone because some people die very very young)

reply to post by ElohimJD


Actually, I believe that is wrong.
Enoch, Elijah and (in some cases) the Theotokos ((Virgin Mary) as well as Muhammad (again it's a matter of translation,assumption and/or belief )


(because I know some people will not read other books, like the Qur'an)


As far as Enoch, and Elijah

2 Kings 2:11 - "Then it came about as they were going along and talking, that behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven."

Genesis 5:24 - "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

Hebrews 11:5 - "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found because God took him up; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."

Now you are saying "But Gunz, John 3:13 says "And no one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man"

And I reply with "That is only saying that only those who descended from Heaven can ascended to Heaven, and did we all not "descended from heaven"?

Even the Son of Man was born of a human woman, so clearly "descended from heaven" must mean those who were in Heaven first and being that God made everyone (depending on your belief) then we all come from God who is in Heaven.

Text "You are just making this up. The OT knew three heavens and the NT knows seven. Read, Lord of the Cosmos: Mithras, Paul, and the Gospel of Mark, by Michael Patella OSB." That was made in response to your statement: ". . . the third heaven in which it is expanding into is totally unknown to them."

reply to post by jmdewey60


@ jmdewey

Now for the third time I ask you to be civil and answer a very simple question without the usual diversion that is in your nature. I do not want to buy your book for $13.00 for another person's spiel. I want the answer as to where I can find that there are seven heavens in the NT and three heavens in the OT as you have stated. Now that should not be too hard to answer. You made the statement that your source is in both the NT and the OT. Now you will not answer that simple question and want me to buy a Catholic book for $13.00. That is absolutely nonsense to give an answer such as that. Buying a book has nothing to do with the book which I already have which is the bible. Why would I want to buy your book if it is in my bible? All you have to do is tell me where I can find this information in the OT and NT or simply tell me that you are either mistaken or not truthful. I find your entire premise very troubling.

reply to post by Seede

That is absolutely nonsense to give an answer such as that.

Maybe to you but obviously not to me, otherwise I wouldn't have said that.
I don't think that there are single verses, one in each testament, saying how many heavens they thought there were.
You have someone with a thesis who wrote it out, which is an analysis of the texts to argue his conclusion.
This is how a scholar learns things, by taking advantage of work by someone who had specialized in a particular subject.

To the OP:

By definition, once you die, you cannot "come back," which is why these things are now commonly referred to as "near death experiences." I'd say that they are hallucinations of a dying/extremely stressed and oxygen starved brain with the patient's individual belief system influencing what is seen.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Text Maybe to you but obviously not to me, otherwise I wouldn't have said that. I don't think that there are single verses, one in each testament, saying how many heavens they thought there were. You have someone with a thesis who wrote it out, which is an analysis of the texts to argue his conclusion. This is how a scholar learns things, by taking advantage of work by someone who had specialized in a particular subject.

Finally you admit that there are no verses that describe your blatant double talk. You have absolutely no scholarly knowledge of the theology of true Christianity. and your continuous double talk shows me that to be throughout all of your discussions. Every conversation has been a negative issue to you even with producing the authors and source of the authors. Go back and re read all of our conversations and realize just how far off you are from reality. I wish you lots of luck in your next life. That is if there is one. You can argue that one with your Creator. That is if He will listen to your prattle.

.