What Jerusalem?

On another thread some verses from the Old Testament got accidentally placed close to one another. The results of the proximity seemed so astounding to me that I thought they deserved a thread of their own, seeing as this didn't happen until page 13 of the thread. I don't know about most people on ATS, but I personally find threads of more than 4 pages to be hard to wade through, and wonderful gems and pearls get easily lost.

So here it is: All Bible quotes, unless otherwise indicated are from the WEB(World English Bible)

Deuteronomy 13: 12 If you shall hear tell concerning one of your cities, which Yahweh your God gives you to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain base fellows are gone out from the midst of you, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, “Let us go and serve other gods,” which you have not known; 14 then you shall inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is done in the midst of you, 15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein and its livestock, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its street, and shall burn with fire the city, and all its spoil every whit, to Yahweh your God: and it shall be a heap forever; it shall not be built again. 17 Nothing of the devoted thing shall cling to your hand; that Yahweh may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show you mercy, and have compassion on you, and multiply you, as he has sworn to your fathers;

1 Kings Chapter 11
1 Now king Solomon loved many foreign women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites; 2 of the nations concerning which Yahweh said to the children of Israel, “You shall not go among them, neither shall they come among you; for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods.” Solomon joined to these in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines; and his wives turned away his heart. 4 For it happened, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not perfect with Yahweh his God, as was the heart of David his father. 5 For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites. 6 Solomon did that which was evil in the sight of Yahweh, and didn’t go fully after Yahweh, as did David his father. 7 Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, on the mountain that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech the abomination of the children of Ammon. 8 So he did for all his foreign wives, who burnt incense and sacrificed to their gods. 9 Yahweh was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned away from Yahweh, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he didn’t keep that which Yahweh commanded. 11 Therefore Yahweh said to Solomon, “Because this is done by you, and you have not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded you, I will surely tear the kingdom from you, and will give it to your servant. 12 Notwithstanding I will not do it in your days, for David your father’s sake; but I will tear it out of the hand of your son. 13 However I will not tear away all the kingdom; but I will give one tribe to your son, for David my servant’s sake, and for Jerusalem’s sake which I have chosen.”

My observation was that in order to follow the Law of Moses, the city of Jerusalem should have been reduced to a smoldering heap, and never been rebuilt. The fact that certain people did rebuild Jerusalem after the "70 year exile" complete with wall and temple, seems to be a gross violation of Moses.

Is it possible that Post-exile Jerusalem was in and of itself the "abomination of desolation"?

Just to give some historical context about Jerusalem:

Jerusalem
During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times....
Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Jewish tradition since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son, King Solomon, commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.
.......
When the Assyrians conquered the Kingdom of Israel in 722 BCE, Jerusalem was strengthened by a great influx of refugees from the northern kingdom. The First Temple period ended around 586 BCE, as the Babylonians conquered Judah and Jerusalem, and laid waste to Solomon's Temple.
........
In 538 BCE, after 50 years of Babylonian captivity, Persian King Cyrus the Great invited the Jews to return to Judah to rebuild the Temple.[85] Construction of the Second Temple was completed in 516 BCE, during the reign of Darius the Great, 70 years after the destruction of the First Temple.[86][87] In about 445 BCE, King Artaxerxes I of Persia issued a decree allowing the city and the walls to be rebuilt.[88] Jerusalem resumed its role as capital of Judah and center of Jewish worship.

What is meant by Post-exile Period is the period beginning 538 BCE When the Persian Emperor allowed Judeans to return to the Persian province of Judea to build a temple in Jerusalem.

Information about Abomination of desolation

In Judaism I believe the promised Messiah would rebuild the temple and usher in the Messianic age. It does seem confusing because the Jewish people built Israel again, but not the temple. Could this be something related to the future?

reply to post by Phoenix267

It would seem that the implication is that Jerusalem should not have been re-inhabited by the Ezra project.

Originally posted by Phoenix267
In Judaism I believe the promised Messiah would rebuild the temple and usher in the Messianic age. It does seem confusing because the Jewish people built Israel again, but not the temple. Could this be something related to the future?

Well, sort of.

The Messiah, in Judaism, was foreseen as a political leader, who would save Israel from their oppressors. Jesus was rejected by most Jews as not fulfilling that role, though Christians see him as a spiritual, rather than political, deliverer.

The main problem with rebuilding the Temple is that the Dome of the Rock was built on that site, and even the Israeli government recognizes that knocking that down, in order to rebuild the Temple, would be a very, very bad idea. That's not to say that it isn't on some peoples' agendas, though

reply to post by adjensen

Greetings adjensen,

The Messiah, in Judaism, was foreseen as a political leader, who would save Israel from their oppressors.

I'm having a bit of trouble sorting out all the Messiahs of the Post-Exile/Second temple era.
1) Ezra - 2nd Moses
2) Zerubbabel - son of David and Governor of Judean province of Persian Empire
3) Joshua - High Priest - secretly crowned as The Branch and builder of the temple(Zech 6:9-14)
4) Cyrus the Great (Is 45:1)

reply to post by pthena


They're all kind of summed up in that "political/military Messiah who shows our foes the door" motif, though, no?

I like the way you are looking at this. I have always felt that the millennial temple will be built in the us in two weeks time and that the us would be the new Jerusalem. It could be the reason it was not supposed to be rebuilt.

reply to post by adjensen

They're all kind of summed up in that "political/military Messiah who shows our foes the door" motif, though, no?

What foes? Persia was not a foe. Jerusalem was under Persian imperial protection until Greece defeated Persia.

Originally posted by deadeyedick
I have always felt that the millennial temple will be built in the us in two weeks time and that the us would be the new Jerusalem.

Want to know how that's practical?

Yitzhaq Hayutman holds the key to peace on Earth - it's on a floppy disk in his pants pocket. With his full white beard, bald pate, and well-pressed khakis, the 61-year-old Israeli cybernetics expert and tech investor looks like Moses done over for a Banana Republic ad. Right now, he's showing me how he wants to position an airborne hologram over the Dome of the Rock, a gold-capped shrine that's one of the most holy sites in Islam. "The blimp will go there," Hayutman says pointing into the blue. "And eventually the Messiah will come."

(Source)

He wants to "reconstruct" the Temple as a hologram, projected over the Dome of the Rock.

Mind. Blown.

reply to post by deadeyedick

millennial temple will be built in the us in two weeks time and that the us would be the new Jerusalem.

What's millennial temple?
By us, do you mean U.S.?

reply to post by adjensen

Sounds promising.

What's fascinating about his vision of the apocalypse is that it's not the bloodbath that fundamentalist Christians imagine.

But the thread is actually about the 2nd temple, and whether Jerusalem should have ever been rebuilt at all after Babylonian destruction.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by adjensen

Sounds promising.

What's fascinating about his vision of the apocalypse is that it's not the bloodbath that fundamentalist Christians imagine.

But the thread is actually about the 2nd temple, and whether Jerusalem should have ever been rebuilt at all after Babylonian destruction.

I shall bow out, then. I don't really have an opinion on that, sorry.

reply to post by pthena


U.S. sorry for the lack of periods

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by deadeyedick

I wonder when exactly the Mormons suddenly changed their position. It used to be they believed that when Lehi/Nephi(?) left Jerusalem before the Babylonian destruction, that that was it, and that the New Jerusalem was on the North American continent.

Now all of a sudden they've changed their doctrine?

Latter Day Saints believe that the Jews will build the Third Temple and after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the Jews will accept Jesus as the Messiah and most Jews will then embrace the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then, it is believed, the Third Temple will be God's temple as Christ reigns on the earth. There will be many temples but the two main temples will serve as the central governing place Eastern Hemisphere and the New Jerusalem Temple in Independence, Missouri will function as the resurrected Jesus Christ's Western Hemisphere governing place. Both of these two temples will have thrones for Jesus Christ to sit on during his millennial reign.[30]
Latter Day Saints

Also, about the Third Temple. The third temple was built by Herod the Great. The 2nd temple was completely removed (not one stone on another) to make way for it.

I don't know what magic significance people are placing on Third temple, as future. Third temple is history as of 70 AD.

Messiah means "anointed one". Kings and prophets were anointed ones, and on occasion the Highpriest was also anointed when he was chosen to be a prophet. Ofcourse these were all "proto-types" of the King of Israel, Jesus Christ. All that fire and that thundering voice at Mt. Sinai and Horeb scared the Israelites and they begged him to stop communicating that way with them because it scared them to death, so he promised to send them a prophet like Moses.

Now as to the Deuteronomy 13 bit. No one would destory Jerusalem, so God struck it down, a few times himself by using the nations to punish them. Ofcourse he relented when his people's hearts turned back towards him, until the next time. What i actually find interesting is, the Deut. 13 part actually describes what is going to happen to Damascus, almost word for word and why? Because Damascus was once part of Israel.

reply to post by pthena


I'm not sure about that but if it is true then just call it the forth but i know it will be built when all the prophecies come true. My point is that if the temple location was moved it would prove your op to have truth behind it and be the reason it has never lasted. I guess the mormons like the idea too but when you take into account all the symbolism in washington and new york you can see that the signs are there.

Cyrus the Messiah

As for some divine permission for Jerusalem being rebuilt in violation of Moses, we have:

Isaiah 44:28 Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure,’
even saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be built;’
and of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

45:1 Thus says Yahweh to his anointed(Messiah), to Cyrus, whose right hand I have held, to subdue nations before him, and strip kings of their armor; to open the doors before him, and the gates shall not be shut:

2 “I will go before you,
and make the rough places smooth.

So Post-exile prophets pop up proclaiming Cyrus to be the Messiah.

This is what Cyrus proclaims about himself:

From The Kurash Prism:

I am Kurash [ "Cyrus" ], King of the World, Great King, Legitimate King, King of Babilani, King of Kiengir and Akkade, King of the four rims of the earth, Son of Kanbujiya, Great King, King of Hakhamanish, Grandson of Kurash, Great king, King of Hakhamanish, descendant of Chishpish, Great king, King of Hakhamanish, of a family which always exercised kingship; whose rule Bel and Nebo love, whom they want as king to please their hearts. When I entered Babilani as a friend and when I established the seat of the government in the palace of the ruler under jubilation and rejoicing, Marduk, the great lord, induced the magnanimous inhabitants of Babilani to love me, and I was daily endeavoring to worship him.... As to the region from as far as Assura and Susa, Akkade, Eshnunna, the towns Zamban, Me-turnu, Der as well as the region of the Gutians, I returned to these sacred cities on the other side of the Tigris the sanctuaries of which have been ruins for a long time, the images which used to live therein and established for them permanent sanctuaries. I also gathered all their former inhabitants and returned them to their habitations. Furthermore, I resettled upon the command of Marduk, the great lord, all the gods of Kiengir and Akkade whom Nabonidus had brought into Babilani to the anger of the lord of the gods, unharmed, in their former temples, the places which make them happy.
Kurash (Cyrus) the Great: The Decree of Return for the Jews, 539 BCE

So here we have the Messiah King of Kings, Ruler of the World, and endorsed by Post-exile prophets.
Loved by Bel and Nebo, aided by lord Marduk, at the command of Marduk he restored all the gods captured by Nabonidus.

reply to post by pthena


Yes, Cyrus was consider to be a messiah. In Judaism a messiah is someone who is anointed to be king. I don't know if prophets would be consider messiahs. Because Samuel was anointed I believe.

reply to post by deadeyedick

all the symbolism in washington and new york you can see that the signs are there.

Are you referring to Pagan symbols? Is North America claimed by the clan god of Israel also?