Boy Scouts to Admit Openly Gay Youths

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Do you really think gays are the only ones who push relentlessly for change?

Private Golf Clubs Resist Rising Winds Of Social Change

Now, almost a year after the exclusionary policies of the Shoal Creek Country Club in Birmingham, Ala., came under fire before the PGA championship, these last bastions of wealthy white male society, the exclusive old-line golf clubs, are facing increasing pressure for change.

The threat of lawsuits and loss of favorable tax considerations have led to reconsideration of membership policies at a number of clubs. Olympia Fields Country Club, one of the most traditional old-line clubs in the region, now has two blacks on its waiting list.

- The old-line directors of many clubs are passing on, and their slots are shifting to Baby Boomers who were raised to view racial and sexual equality not as a threat, but as the norm. On the boards of some clubs, there is tension between the old-liners and younger members who support changes in decades-old rules.

- Corporations are rethinking perks that connect their employees to country clubs that discriminate. Kemper Group and Centel, for example, which sponsor tournaments on the PGA Tour and LPGA Tour, no longer pay initiation fees at clubs that discriminate against blacks and women. A bill in Congress would eliminate income tax exemptions for dues paid to clubs that discriminate.

But even in the face of these developments, many clubs embrace the old rules so fervently that, rather than open their rolls, they would forfeit the profits and prestige of national professional and charity golf competitions.

``We`re a private club,`` said Peter B. Carey, president of Beverly Country Club at 8700 S. Western in Chicago. ``We expect to stay that way.``

articles.chicagotribune.com...

Now this was written in 1991, so I would imagine that social and legislative pressure has probably changed these private clubs to admit blacks in 2013. Who knows, though - maybe they are still holding out? My point is, discrimination in private clubs may still be legal, but there are people who will fight them with everything they've got. I say, good for them.

reply to post by kaylaluv


We're not talking about everyone else pushing for change, are we? We're talking about one group of activists, represented across multiple named organizations who made it their mission in life to either change or destroy the Boy Scouts of America.

I'm going to keep my discussion to the topic here...not what other groups, in other causes and dealing with other concerns may or may not have done in totally unrelated situations. It's been a 2 sided battle, with the BSA. Not 3 or 4 or 5. It's certainly messy enough for emotion and passion on just about all sides, without throwing even more into it by bringing outside examples in to muddy the basic facts of the situation further, IMO.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

We're not talking about everyone else pushing for change, are we? We're talking about one group of activists, represented across multiple named organizations who made it their mission in life to either change or destroy the Boy Scouts of America.

I'm going to keep my discussion to the topic here...not what other groups, in other causes and dealing with other concerns may or may not have done in totally unrelated situations. It's been a 2 sided battle, with the BSA. Not 3 or 4 or 5. It's certainly messy enough for emotion and passion on just about all sides, without throwing even more into it by bringing outside examples in to muddy the basic facts of the situation further, IMO.

Lame, wrabbit, lame. You don't have a good response to pushing for change in general, you just want to bash the gays for pushing for change. All that proves is that you have a problem with gays specifically.

reply to post by kaylaluv


Well, that's the third personal and direct attack on me, as a member, you've made across two threads now. I'm disappointed. Not entirely surprised, but disappointed. There is a very real high ground of intellectual debate to be had on this topic from both sides of it. In fact, on this very subject, I was placed in the position of debating it from YOUR side. As they say, one doesn't know a topic until one can debate the opposing side and WIN it. I had and did.

So, perhaps the topic will come up again where opinions are respected and not assigned out of hand to 'hate', 'ignorance' or just plain stupidity (Or Lame, as you put it now). There really IS room for difference of opinion without personal feelings of being wronged or having to crusade for the entire cause, alone, as as one person. There is even common ground to be had here.....if people of good Faith are at a table looking for it, of course.

It's starting to look like these won't be the threads to find it or partake in that intellectual give and take. A shame really. The few times I have been in this debate, either side as it happens, where both sides are well informed and determined to win on merit? It's been among the most interesting debates one can have.

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reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I'm not personally attacking you. I want to debate you. That's why I've done my research and included all my links. To have you dismiss my points and not be willing to address them is an insult to me.

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays? There has been nothing done illegally. No one in the BSA has been murdered. Why do you have this opinion that what the gay activists have done is so evil, when they probably learned their tactics from other activists, like the black civil rights activists?

This thread brought tears to my eyes.

"if they don't like it then they can go form their own organization that doesn't allow gays"

That is bar none the stupidest thing I have ever read in my life

They had an organization. It didn't allow gays. It taught children for generations how to be better men.

"accept us, you must accept us" bleeding hearts ruined that organization. The only orientation these kids need to hear about is in map reading.

Close the BSA, hold the rights to the name. Say it's because of the gay agenda. Show them to be the villains they are.

reply to post by kaylaluv

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays?

Did you really just compare being gay to being black in America? Sexual orientation is NOT the same thing as skin color or ethnicity. You can say it is, but it would still be wrong and the comparison is offensive.

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays?

Did you really just compare being gay to being black in America? Sexual orientation is NOT the same thing as skin color or ethnicity. You can say it is, but it would still be wrong and the comparison is offensive.

Why is being gay different than being black?

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


How many blacks "pretended to be white"?

How many signs have you seen posted that say "hetero only"?

How many businesses required gays to use the back entrance? (no pun intended)

How many blacks can choose to be white one day and black the next?

How many people find out they are black when they are 50?

That list is endless. There is a huge gulf between not accepting a choice of lifestyle and systematic exclusion and depredation

reply to post by kaylaluv


Fair enough then... If we can move beyond the personal, I'm sincere in saying I really have debated this from both directions and enjoyed the sheer give and take of it, in both forms. Religion and Abortion I won't debate for real on a bet or for a paycheck...but this topic hasn't become that radicalized yet.

I do see your points. As good faith to what I've said above, I could, if on your side of things, make a great case for how Eagle Scout Awards as well as other Boy Scout designations may not carry 'official' power but absolutely carry 'unofficial' weight well outside and well after the BSA membership of youth. Blocking Gays deprives them of that basic right (Spelled with lower r) , taken as a given and enjoyed by any average kid. See what I mean about needing to be careful? I can debate myself and even beat myself. It's not a pretty sight...lol.... I'd assure you though, personal emotion isn't in this for me, anyway.

It really does come down to just one thing. Can an activist group cause the forced change or destruction of a private organization? I'd have to say, in general terms and evidence, yes. They absolutely can. Both, for that matter. So, where should the line be between economic terrorism (Terrorism is any act of aggression, force or attack to bring about Political or Policy change...so it fits, IMO. It fits well) and society pressure? Should there be a line? How many lawsuits is frivolous? How many efforts to seek out and persuade property owners to disallow the Scouts from meeting at a location is 'activism' vs something real similar to libel/slander and organized harassment?


Many people look at the Gays vs. BSA as just another Gay issue. It starts and ends right there for them. I tend to look a bit wider.

In this context, specifically, if an activist group can, with actual applause, make a mission in life to alter or ruin a private organization? What of the next one? When it isn't the BSA and isn't a cause you find friendly? What then? The approach, impact and precedent are all wrong, outright. Even if the cause itself isn't necessary wrong.

The Ends Justify The Means is a very dangerous slope to attempt to maintain traction on, IMO.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays?

Did you really just compare being gay to being black in America? Sexual orientation is NOT the same thing as skin color or ethnicity. You can say it is, but it would still be wrong and the comparison is offensive.

Why is being gay different than being black?

Gee, I don't know. Were gay people ever brought over by the ship load and forced to work as slaves in America? Were they chained up, whipped, beaten and killed en mass because of the color of their skin or because they were considered savages because of where they came from geographically?

When you go to get a job, an apartment or anything else can you just stop being black? No

When you go to get a job, an apartment or anything else can you just not bring up your sexual preference and eliminate any gay bias by doing so (real or imagined)? Yes

The list goes on and on and on but you wan't some real answers, why don't you ask the next African American you run across how being black is different than being gay in America. That should clear it up.

Originally posted by Helious

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays?

Did you really just compare being gay to being black in America? Sexual orientation is NOT the same thing as skin color or ethnicity. You can say it is, but it would still be wrong and the comparison is offensive.

Why is being gay different than being black?

Gee, I don't know. Were gay people ever brought over by the ship load and forced to work as slaves in America?

I suppose some gay people were brought over and forced to work as slaves in America.

Were they chained up, whipped, beaten and killed en mass because of the color of their skin or because they were considered savages because of where they came from geographically?

Are you asking if gay people were ever killed because of what they are? Well the answer to that is certainly yes.

When you go to get a job, an apartment or anything else can you just stop being black? No

Can you stop being heterosexual? Then I suppose you can't stop being homosexual..

When you go to get a job, an apartment or anything else can you just not bring up your sexual preference and eliminate any gay bias by doing so (real or imagined)? Yes

So because the bias is based on skin color, it is different?

The list goes on and on and on but you wan't some real answers, why don't you ask the next African American you run across how being black is different than being gay in America. That should clear it up.

You certainly haven't.

Originally posted by 200Plus
How many signs have you seen posted that say "hetero only"?

Oh, you mean like the sign that the Boy Scouts just took down?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Well, to your first point, I would say that I truly don't believe gay activists wanted the destruction of the BSA. That was not in any way their goal. Their goal was to allow openly gay boys the opportunity to be part of the greatest boys' club in America. So, they did everything that was in their means - legally - to make that happen.

And to your second point, I think it depends on the general population as to what the next big movement may be. Anything that victimizes people will never fly with the general public. For example, pedophiles will never win anyone over if they try to get themselves admitted to the BSA. It just ain't never gonna happen. But movements that work to include law-abiding citizens are always good movements in my opinion. If KKK members want to work towards getting admission to an all-black college, I'm okay with it, as long as their motives are simply to get an education. My opinion on the KKK is about as unfavorable as you can get, but it's within their right to do everything within their means - legally - to make it happen.

Thanks for the debate.

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays?

Did you really just compare being gay to being black in America? Sexual orientation is NOT the same thing as skin color or ethnicity. You can say it is, but it would still be wrong and the comparison is offensive.

I am not comparing being gay to being black. I am comparing discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination, whether it's against women, or blacks or gay or whites or whomever.

reply to post by MichaelPMaccabee


Let me know if you want to have a real discussion about it. Your counter arguments are absurd. Comparing being gay in America to being black in America is equally absurd.

By the way, the Boy Scouts didn't have a problem accepting African American boys, the reason being because they are not bigots or racists. They didn't wan't to accept openly gay boys because it compromises the integrity of what they are trying to teach the children by introducing unneeded and unwanted sexual aspects into the situation.

Being born a certain color or from a certain race is different from obsessively needing to publicize your sexual orientation to the rest of the world and demand they accept it uniformly in every situation without compromise. It's different because of fundamental, obvious and self explanatory reasons.

Pretending to not understand what they are is not a compelling reason to continue in what you would no doubt like to turn into some philosophical charade.

Originally posted by Helious

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays?

Did you really just compare being gay to being black in America? Sexual orientation is NOT the same thing as skin color or ethnicity. You can say it is, but it would still be wrong and the comparison is offensive.

Why is being gay different than being black?

Gee, I don't know. Were gay people ever brought over by the ship load and forced to work as slaves in America? Were they chained up, whipped, beaten and killed en mass because of the color of their skin or because they were considered savages because of where they came from geographically?

When you go to get a job, an apartment or anything else can you just stop being black? No

When you go to get a job, an apartment or anything else can you just not bring up your sexual preference and eliminate any gay bias by doing so (real or imagined)? Yes

The list goes on and on and on but you wan't some real answers, why don't you ask the next African American you run across how being black is different than being gay in America. That should clear it up.

My example of private golf clubs did not involve beating or enslaving or lynching anyone. Nor did it involve not giving someone a job or a place to live. It simply involved not allowing blacks to join a private country club, very similar to not allowing openly gay boys into the Boy Scouts.

Originally posted by MichaelPMaccabee

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by kaylaluv

 

Why is it okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against blacks, but not okay to fight relentlessly to keep private clubs from discriminating against gays?

Did you really just compare being gay to being black in America? Sexual orientation is NOT the same thing as skin color or ethnicity. You can say it is, but it would still be wrong and the comparison is offensive.

Why is being gay different than being black?

The utter dishonesty of the "gay = black" argument is not only appalling, but it's downright ignorance.

You cannot, under any circumstances, compare the plight of gays in the United States to black people.

Until gays aren't allowed to walk into the same bathroom that I go into, eat at the same establishments, or have had 4000+ people hung or burned to death in town squares, you cannot sit here and speak such nonsense with intellectual honesty.

Ridiculous.