ILLEGITIMATE PASTORS non-accreditation,

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

Who cares about accreditation to teach/preach the gospel? I don't think Peter and Paul had any accredited education.

Who cares about accreditation?? This is absurd.. You have to be someone trained in the understanding of Gospel to preach it properly.. The disciples were exactly that, students of the time, and conveying what they were learning from Their teacher.

I think my problem is that, some pastors totally overlook what is taught and written in Scripture simply to defend their personal ways of living. I will give an example: some (married) pastors, believe anal and oral sex with their wives is okay, and something that Jesus Christ would find acceptable.. Do you agree?

edit on 17-5-2013 by tony9802 because: (no reason given)

Ephesians 4 declares that the offices of pastor, evangelist, prophet, and teachers are gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many of the greatest leaders and pastors of the faith through the centuries didn't rely on academia to feed the sheep, but the gifts and empowerment of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. That's it.

I've seen pictures of some pastors who looked like prior thugs, probably ex-criminals with tattoes and bizarre hair-cuts on their bodies, and the impression they give is of being even ex-cons maybe even ex-pimps who suddenly become ordained as pastors!! I don't know, I just sort of think accreditation and proper schooling is important to teach.. but you be the judge, maybe these ex-thugs were likewise chosen by the Holy Spirit..
Hallelluaih

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

Who cares about accreditation to teach/preach the gospel? I don't think Peter and Paul had any accredited education.

Who cares about accreditation?? This is absurd.. You have to be someone trained in the understanding of Gospel to preach it properly.. The disciples were exactly that, students of the time, and conveying what they were learning from Their teacher.

I think my problem is that, some pastors totally overlook what is taught and written in Scripture simply to defend their personal ways of living. I will give an example: some (married) pastors, believe anal and oral sex with their wives is okay, and something that Jesus Christ would find acceptable.. Do you agree?

edit on 17-5-2013 by tony9802 because: (no reason given)

Ephesians 4 declares that the offices of pastor, evangelist, prophet, and teachers are gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many of the greatest leaders and pastors of the faith through the centuries didn't rely on academia to feed the sheep, but the gifts and empowerment of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. That's it.

I've seen pictures of some pastors who looked like prior thugs, probably ex-criminals with tattoes and bizarre hair-cuts on their bodies, and the impression they give is of being even ex-cons maybe even ex-pimps who suddenly become ordained as pastors!! I don't know, I just sort of think accreditation and proper schooling is important to teach.. but you be the judge, maybe these ex-thugs were likewise chosen by the Holy Spirit..
Hallelluaih

reply to post by tony9802


I've only seen one, Todd Bentley. So that would be an extreme exception trying to be pushed off as the rule,..

which is a huge fallacy.

Originally posted by tony9802
reply to post by benrl

 

I will believe you if you are someone who actually reads German or Old German and Latin buddy, the truest of doctrines would then be from Greek Orthodox, and the G. Orthodox very much resemble Catholic doctrine..



Americans aren't particularly monastic.. so what's the point. There's also the song of songs by the way, and some people will interpret those verses as being carnal, whereas spiritually minded doctrines, will interpret them as spiritual.. You're either Eros or Agape.. It's not that difficult to figure those two out and to see the difference between things Holy, and things carnal...

Was raised partially in a Greek Orthodox church (my grandfather demanded it), I am one quarter greek... My upbringing lead me to be agnostic/atheist.

I came to my faith through in part my study of theologies of the world religions, through my most militant atheistic phase I studied every flaw in the religions of my youth to fight against them.

The whole reason I found my faith again was through movements like the Calvary movement and a very personal saul like moment, its why I chose the schools I did, to learn more about the protestant faiths.

As they much closer (not 100%) follow the bibles teaching, but there you go again, trying to blind yourself with an appeal to authority.

Since you have dismissed my views, well Ill bow out of this as I feel nothing I can add to this conversation will sway you.

"His fruit was sweet to my taste" is a metaphor for fallacio.


PERFECT! Now the gay community can stand up and claim that scripture makes positive commentary about sodomy.. that's all I needed to hear. Are you saying Jesus Christ condones fallacio then? I am being serious by the way about pastors and their sexual practices.. I will have to look up the article again, but apparently there are a number of pastors who state that all sexual acts with their wives are acceptable.. so long as it is with their wives..
Therefore they probably excuse their inappropriate sexual behavior with Old Testament writings.. all the while condemning gays for the same sexual acts. The New Testament, clearly states the relationship we are supposed to have with the body.. it just seems as though alot of american churches and american pastors do not know how to teach those statements..

Like I said before, monastic tradition is not something that is taught by these very same pastors!
I think it's great.. because you have all of these over sexualized instructors of scripture not telling us the truth..
as it is written in the NT..

Time to leave Amerika..

Originally posted by benrl

Originally posted by tony9802
reply to post by benrl

 

I will believe you if you are someone who actually reads German or Old German and Latin buddy, the truest of doctrines would then be from Greek Orthodox, and the G. Orthodox very much resemble Catholic doctrine..



Americans aren't particularly monastic.. so what's the point. There's also the song of songs by the way, and some people will interpret those verses as being carnal, whereas spiritually minded doctrines, will interpret them as spiritual.. You're either Eros or Agape.. It's not that difficult to figure those two out and to see the difference between things Holy, and things carnal...

Was raised partially in a Greek Orthodox church (my grandfather demanded it), I am one quarter greek... My upbringing lead me to be agnostic/atheist.

I came to my faith through in part my study of theologies of the world religions, through my most militant atheistic phase I studied every flaw in the religions of my youth to fight against them.

The whole reason I found my faith again was through movements like the Calvary movement and a very personal saul like moment, its why I chose the schools I did, to learn more about the protestant faiths.

As they much closer (not 100%) follow the bibles teaching, but there you go again, trying to blind yourself with an appeal to authority.

Since you have dismissed my views, well Ill bow out of this as I feel nothing I can add to this conversation will sway you.

edit on 17-5-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)

Love Greek Orthodox! Calvary Chapel though follows the whole Moses Model for governance, and while it seems like it would be okay... nothing in the NT tells us anything about that Model.. Authority is sort of important, and looking at some of the ancient Christians, and how they did things, would serve as better model and authority. Not trying to impede your evolution, but modern day pastoral america seems very gone, and so removed from original near eastern traditions that it makes me sick. You can actually become ordained ONLINE if you want to, and obtaining these "Certificates" through internet studies is available as well. I'm sorry I just see all of this modern stuff as totally bogus and not true to the grain..


In the meantime, no one is answering the question about Christ's position on sodomy.. any hands?
I've known girls that are total bimbos, and yet call themselves good practicing Christians.. I think it's hilarious,
but thank god for the Monks.. I guess..

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

I've only seen one, Todd Bentley. So that would be an extreme exception trying to be pushed off as the rule,..

which is a huge fallacy.

My sister used to date this Cuban-American guy who was totally thuggish, and talked gangster and did not have a lot of learning under his belt- this guy, from the looks of it, had bad grades in High School, and just did not seem like a very good, decent sort of person.. anyhow I found out later that he had become a pastor (I don't know if he does his pastoring in English or Spanish..) but I thought it was so bizarre that someone like him with his background and group of Cuban friends and entourage, like really raunchy totally impolite people that I actually met, would become a pastor of all things! It's funny because like I've been stating this whole issue of accreditation is in many ways meaningful.. Someone like him goes to a night school or adult school for a few months, and then goes to a 2 year college to learn about the Bible, and then suddenly he becomes a pastor!

I am happy for him and his vocation and if he is teaching Cubans and ex-gangsters in Miami Florida a few things about the Gospel I think it's wonderful, but it also tells me an awful lot about the American educational system, in terms of bible and scripture..

This guy simply was not a good person, and I personally feel like a serious turn around towards God is so out of the question that I would not trust his pastoring, motives or intentions.. I don't know don't mean to be rude or impolite, but in his case, it's just too much.. His name was Ricardo Jimenez in case you're in hot flashy Miami!

Anyone can become a Pastor...without accreditation...my wife is a lay pastor....a few friends are also youth pastors.

Your point?

And...they ARE LEGITIMATE practicing, counsuling Pastors.

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
Anyone can become a Pastor...without accreditation...my wife is a lay pastor....a few friends are also youth pastors.

Your point?

And...they ARE LEGITIMATE practicing, counsuling Pastors.

Thanks for your response.. My point is that I think the vocation of Pastoring should be governed by the American Educational System.. not by "do it on your own." organizations. Like one person posted, anyone can start a church, any church any time, and there will not be any regulation over it, nor it's accreditation. I would like to see Pastoring as a vocation become something that is governed by legitimate Universities, in the same way that they govern who is actually deemed an "Anthropologist," an "Archeologist," or any other "Profession,". Do you understand my drift? The discipline and vocation of becoming a "Pastor," needs to be controlled and authorized by higher authority somehow; and accredited. Nice to hear that you wife is actually a practicing lay-pastor. I commend her highly. In the meantime though, this whole "industry" (religio-spiritual industry?) needs to be governed by a rational authority where grades are grades and learning is learning. Thereby ensuring that teaching, is indeed teaching. A "Psychologist," is exactly that, a Psychologist, based on their credentials as is any other important of say for example the medical, financial, dental community, Why isn't that the case with Pastors? Or Ministers? Or Reverends for that matter? Gosh, I wonder if people understand what I'm saying here. This industry, the industry of "Preaching," is totally ungoverned by any unified body, which is one of the reasons, in my opinion, for the demise of American Christianity. Anything goes, and it should not be that way.

When I see a doctor, I make sure he's accredited. Why isn't that the case with pastors? Are they above the rule of law, simply because nothing rules over them? It's just kind of dangerous, and I think that's what sort of scares me nowadays about who's teaching what, how, and to whom. I wouldn't let the wrong individuals teach my kids..

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
Anyone can become a Pastor...without accreditation...my wife is a lay pastor....a few friends are also youth pastors.

Your point?

And...they ARE LEGITIMATE practicing, counsuling Pastors.

Thanks for your response.. My point is that I think the vocation of Pastoring should be governed by the American Educational System.. not by "do it on your own." organizations. Like one person posted, anyone can start a church, any church any time, and there will not be any regulation over it, nor it's accreditation. I would like to see Pastoring as a vocation become something that is governed by legitimate Universities, in the same way that they govern who is actually deemed an "Anthropologist," an "Archeologist," or any other "Profession,". Do you understand my drift? The discipline and vocation of becoming a "Pastor," needs to be controlled and authorized by higher authority somehow; and accredited. Nice to hear that you wife is actually a practicing lay-pastor. I commend her highly. In the meantime though, this whole "industry" (religio-spiritual industry?) needs to be governed by a rational authority where grades are grades and learning is learning. Thereby ensuring that teaching, is indeed teaching. A "Psychologist," is exactly that, a Psychologist, based on their credentials as is any other important of say for example the medical, financial, dental community, Why isn't that the case with Pastors? Or Ministers? Or Reverends for that matter? Gosh, I wonder if people understand what I'm saying here. This industry, the industry of "Preaching," is totally ungoverned by any unified body, which is one of the reasons, in my opinion, for the demise of American Christianity. Anything goes, and it should not be that way.

When I see a doctor, I make sure he's accredited. Why isn't that the case with pastors? Are they above the rule of law, simply because nothing rules over them? It's just kind of dangerous, and I think that's what sort of scares me nowadays about who's teaching what, how, and to whom. I wouldn't let the wrong individuals teach my kids..

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by benrl

As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.

yea that's a spiritual message not a reference to sex at all...

The diatribe of the first twenty verses of Ezekiel ch23 is written in such brutally sexual language that it cannot be read out in churches, and yet nobody has any problem understanding it as an allegory about God's relationship with his people.
The Song of Solomon is a more optimistic version of the same thing.
Hold onto your hats, because from next week onwards I'm going to be demonstrating this point by working systematically through the whole book.

It would be great if you sent me a message to my inbox when you choose to begin the thread.. I wouldn't mind sitting in on it.. Remember though, that for Gospel folk, the Old Testament is read spiritually for a NT perspective.. "and drinking milk and honey.." is no longer sexual language, but spiritual referencing.. Thanks,

Who would set the rules...what version of the bible is considered the legal version...would be setting up a situation the same as what it was that sent loads of people to the states in the first place since they wouldn't be allowed to worship properly since they wouldn't have a minister

Really the best that could ever be done is that if you follow x faith then you check that the person has done enough studying to be worthy of the title from somewhere you trust

Originally posted by Maxatoria
Who would set the rules...what version of the bible is considered the legal version...would be setting up a situation the same as what it was that sent loads of people to the states in the first place since they wouldn't be allowed to worship properly since they wouldn't have a minister

Really the best that could ever be done is that if you follow x faith then you check that the person has done enough studying to be worthy of the title from somewhere you trust

The P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible

Everytime time I write P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible, here on ATS, it disallows the proper spelling.. maybe ATS wants to hide something about P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible?? You decide...

Personally, I think the best idea is to look at the original version of scripture (bible), the NT is originally in Greek, although the people who follow the Pe#ta version, of the bible, believe that perhaps the original version of the new testament is Aramaic. Either way, Greek or Aramaic, I personally believe we need to follow the original folks who read this material first-hand.. they know best.. but that would be 2000 years ago, and following those folks is like following Socrates to the letter.. I just say look at the grand-parents.. they knew best. Everything afterward becomes sort of funny and twisted. The very early monks and Christians understood what J.C. was saying.. and also there was alot of sexual debauchery during their time as well. Sexual debauchery, in and of itself wasn't necessarily evil.. it was just common, maybe too common. Common, common, common. Adversely common,

How to overreach the common and reach for the uncommon..
To better answer your question though, look to the original,, not to the copy. The original writings and not their American off-springs. We just need to learn how to fast on bread and water.. and then maybe, we can learn how to pray better.. But you need to make your body, and pride, humble. You need to crack yourself.

I know this Cuban guy (through my sister) , and he actually thinks he's a PASTOR. but all he thinks about is his carnal relationship with God.. he calls himself a Pastor.. but he's Cuban for God's sake, and he doesn't know anything about the New Testament, he, es not look at scripture: all he knows is that God is the woman God placed in front of him.. and that God made his babies.. He honours God to defend his CARNAL BODY, and his reproductive nature.. sort of sad, but true.. just read the entire thread. It's just hilarious, this cuban american guy wants to teach me, that Jesus Christ, is a baby factory.. Sure people want kids, but coming from some Cuban Scarface Pastor, I certainly beg to differ. By the way, I do not attend his church, but to put it in milder terms, let's just say the devil contacted me about this Cuban pastor.. this is so scary to me!! Because I have the pastor who THINKS he has genuine legitimacy, telling me that coitus and having a family is the ONLY way to God. In other words, according to him, you cannot have God unless you get laid.. WOW!!

Originally posted by tony9802
Everytime time I write P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible, here on ATS, it disallows the proper spelling.. maybe ATS wants to hide something about P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible?? You decide...
]

Just for information, there is a sequence of four letters in the middle which will always be deleted by the ATS automatic censor, whatever the context.
Thus on the occasion when I wanted to talk about the incident at Shiittim, I was obliged to change the spelling

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by tony9802
Everytime time I write P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible, here on ATS, it disallows the proper spelling.. maybe ATS wants to hide something about P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible?? You decide...
]

Just for information, there is a sequence of four letters in the middle which will always be deleted by the automatic censor, whatever the context.
Thus on the occasion when I wanted to talk about the incident at Shiittim, I was obliged to change the spelling

.

edit on 17-5-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

[/quote

I was trying to write P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A, on ATS and it wouldn't allow it.. kind of scary.. is that homeland, securite..
whoa..

Originally posted by Maxatoria
I seem to remember that its upto the religious organisations to issue titles etc as theres no government control over religion (separation of state and religion) so you can 'create' your own religion tomorrow and grant yourself any title such as "Arch Grand Prelatorian Knight who goes boing boing wibble wibble" and thats it... but getting legal recognition may be a bit harder for tax purposes but anyone can set them selves up and perhaps some people should vet their pastors before giving them a position of power

You can become a pastor in calif by registering with the state and paying $35.

This is done by members of biker gangs so that members can visit there buddies in jail without being recorded by the cops. this allows them to warn other members of what the cops are trying to find out about or find and make up alibis.

The law in the US forbids the cops from recording the conversations between defendants and there lawyers and there pastors/clergy/ministers/imam/ayatollah/rabbi/hazzan/ LDS Bishop or branch president ECT, ECT, ECT.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by tony9802


Theres your problem. Youve stated the "American Educational sytem". What about all the thousands of Pastors, Reverends, Deacons and Preachers from around the rest of the world? You lumped them all together as though it involves only your 1 idea of one church in one spot...irregardless of you knowing the particulat pastoral requirements of any of them. There are lots. A ton.

Again, by definiton...a "pastor" does not need certification. Some do for some churches of course, but to assume its necessary for all the congregations of all the different churchs, denominations...is incorrect.

To state as you did that my wife (a lay pastor) is illegitimate as one...is insulting to all others.

Everytime time I write P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible, here on ATS, it disallows the proper spelling.. maybe ATS wants to hide something about P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A Bible?? You decide...

"Just for information, there is a sequence of four letters in the middle which will always be deleted by the automatic censor, whatever the context. Thus on the occasion when I wanted to talk about the incident at Shiittim, I was obliged to change the spelling"

I was trying to write P-E-S-H-I-T-T-A, on ATS and it wouldn't allow it.. kind of scary.. is that homeland, securite..
whoa..

Originally posted by ANNED

Originally posted by Maxatoria
I seem to remember that its upto the religious organisations to issue titles etc as theres no government control over religion (separation of state and religion) so you can 'create' your own religion tomorrow and grant yourself any title such as "Arch Grand Prelatorian Knight who goes boing boing wibble wibble" and thats it... but getting legal recognition may be a bit harder for tax purposes but anyone can set them selves up and perhaps some people should vet their pastors before giving them a position of power

You can become a pastor in calif by registering with the state and paying $35.

This is done by members of biker gangs so that members can visit there buddies in jail without being recorded by the cops. this allows them to warn other members of what the cops are trying to find out about or find and make up alibis.

The law in the US forbids the cops from recording the conversations between defendants and there lawyers and there pastors/clergy/ministers/imam/ayatollah/rabbi/hazzan/ LDS Bishop or branch president ECT, ECT, ECT.
en.wikipedia.org...

OH MY GOD! BEFORE THEY TURN OFF MY COMPUTER.. YOU ARE TOTALLY BEAUTIFUL. I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THIS, EVER-- WOW. Thanks so much for the information. Now I feel like Fonda driving through the desert southwest.. To be honest with you, this is particularly important information,,, now we can see why so many people wish to obtain "a Certificate of Pastor.." when they maybe in reality, may not actually be one. This certainly is important. Thankyou

reply to post by tony9802
This subject opens a can of worms. Accreditation is proof that the contents of a subject is transferable to another school that teaches the same subject. That may be rejected teaching elsewhere. It is not proof of a good education. It cost the school money for this and in the case of a christian school the award is useless out side of yours and the other school. You find some traditions, false teachings, and so called important practices should be rejected on the bases of clear scripture over time anyway. I went 6 years part time to a bible school. A see you need a deeper commitment, narrow down of a final objection and a bear trap close. Also a Jesus kicker in the side. :-)