You don't have Free Will.

Put simply, we have conditioned free will.

Our "free will" choices are conditioned by our values, desires, aspirations, past experiences, environment, learned behaviour, acquired habits, and so many other factors which influence us to choose one action over another.

From a metaphysical point of view, there is also the consideration of deep impressions from previous lives and the adjustment of karmic balances.

We may be free to will, but I wonder if even that much is unconsiously conditioned?

Originally posted by jheherrin
Whether people accept it or not, the fact remains that we are controlled by our unconscious instinctual drives and urges. We are much more animal than we truly understand, and our behavior, the wars, the building of cities and roads, the corruption, bullying... all of it, is as natural to us as nature can be. Genetic and cultural influences control us like robots. A fundamental flaw in the bible is your are admonished not to judge. I tell you truly, you judge everything that comes into your senses, if only unconsciously, and you will make a judgement whether you try to quiet your mind or no. It is impossible not to judge.

The illusion and lies of the concept of freewill will fall apart the more we begin to understand our true nature and explore more into the mysteries of the brain. And an ugly and scary truth will eventually emerge (imo); that we are much more like robots than what we think.

...and WHO would be compelling me to expore?...and through what process could you determine that you have understood? (you would have to assume that these are lies and illusion also)...

A99

I have free will. In my opinion, these studies are another scapegoat, meaning, they exasperate societies problems like all of the other soft-kill agents that are set in place, they are there to destroy the good that comes from accepting responsibility for one's actions.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
Yes but there are other factors at work. Such as the factor that the justice system is not really there to dispense justice but more so there as a means of eliminating and containing those that do not fit the mold. So in the overall scope of things its just protecting the overall illusion.

Yeah, that's a good point. But my point was more to do with the fact that western civilization has become/is becoming so politically correct and liberal that whenever somebody did something that defied convention it would just become a shouting match of "But it wasn't my fault! Science says so!"

Instead of pleading 'insanity' people would just start pleading 'lack of free will'.

Originally posted by Wonders
I have free will. In my opinion, these studies are another scapegoat, meaning, they exasperate societies problems like all of the other soft-kill agents that are set in place, they are there to destroy the good that comes from accepting responsibility for one's actions.

Even if your conscious choices are governed by unconscious influences, you are still the agent performing those actions with conscious awareness, so the responsibilities and consequences belong to you.

Free will is possible, not likely though. Not only is 95% of your "choice" subconscious, but also the chance that you will free your will is the remaining 5%

Think about your dream state. How many dreams have you had where you were following a script? Most of us make small decisions within the dream, maybe which way to run from the monster chasing us. But we certainly didn't free will the monster into the dream. This script runs 95% of the dreams that we experience.

The 5% is when an individual becomes lucid, or "free" Then and only then can the person choose to face the monster head on, because they somehow realized it is only as real as their fear, and that there is no need for fear in the dream realm. They can then spend the remainder of the dream script free.

I am trying to remember what I am, and where I will wake up when this extended dream is over. Then and only then can I free my will, my chances? very slim, as are yours.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by NazcaP
"Fate cleverly disguises itself as free will." -- Haruki Murakami

It's called Destiny if you win and Fate if you lose, but it's always declared in retrospect to either rob you of the credit or absolve you of the blame.

I like your response. (also agree) It reminds me of what I call "the blame game".

I would argue that unconscious decisions are still free will, they're just free choices made on auto pilot.

reply to post by SpearMint


Flick your privates real hard, and force yourself to do it.

Boom...free will

reply to post by TheBandit795


what you just described is my free will

Just because you dont' doesnt' mean everyone is the same as you

sadly some of us are contained by our own loved ones,people who cant see beyond there own selfish needs.this is almost as restrictive and bad. sorry guys having a bad time with my partner at the moment.feels like mental torture.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
At least in the way we define free will: The act of consciously making decisions. That doesn't exist in the way we think it to be.

In fact, at least 95% of all decisions you make, of all actions you make, even your thoughts are done on auto pilot. You function on autopilot almost all of the time. Your posts and threads here on ATS, almost 95% done unconsciously. Your thoughts and actions that you make during your entire lifetime? Done without you being consciously aware of it. And the biggest surprise of it all: This automatic behavior can be steered or influenced by outside forces. In fact, controlling your mind is pretty easy it seems.

These sort of studies are nearly always done by either physicists or people that do not make a living by studying consciousness or creativity. Determinism based ideologies are usually down to in part from physicists trying to find correlations between outdated deterministic world views of the laws of nature and human behavior.

"Our actions are very often initiated even though we are unaware of what we are seeking or why," Custers says"

Honestly personally cant remember the last time I started doing something to later think "why the # I spend an hour doing that"

I'm a pretty creative person though and tend to live more in the now than most people. I guess I just enjoy the felt presence of direct experience more than I do following old habits.



It can be spooky though how much some do rely and fall back on lazy ways of existing.

Originally posted by RAY1990
reply to post by Freenrgy2

 

You raise the question that most use to legitimize the concept of free will. Sure, you are FREE (i.e. not restricted) to make choices, but the freedom to make choices does not constitute free will. If you WILL something, can you do so in the context that the choice you make, has not been influenced or caused for you to make that choice at that particular time. In order for you to absolute FREE WILL, you must me able to make choices without them having been caused for you to have made them in the first place.

This is why this whole topic is very thought provoking when you break it down everything is in being because of outside influence and the only thing that has ever had true free will is the creator, it is impossible to implement this idea of free will as it's described because every thought we have is influenced by things in existance.

So instead of free will, it should be said I have freedom of choice... within reason

Exactly right!!

As humans, we'd like to think we have ultimate control of our own destiny. That God gave us free will to make choices that affect our future. However, the bible mentions no such thing. Sure, we have a will, but who ultimately causes everything.

Sometimes the simplest truths are the hardest to accept.

I love how one immediately jumps into "we're nothing but robots" if free will doesn't exist. To say that something causes you to make a choice, is not the same thing as saying that everything in your life is pre-determined. However, I also believe that God has caused some people to be some of the most evil, vile people who have ever walked the planet. Why? It's part of His plan. We can't fathom the depths of His knowledge.

If one believes that the Creator is the creator of everything, then one must believe that God created evil. To believe otherwise assumes that other creatures in the universe possess free will. Did Lucifer possess free will to become Satan and be cast out of heaven? Would it make more sense that the God of the universe who created all things, created Lucifer and caused the events that led to Lucifer making the choice that he did.

Here's how I look at it. I don't believe that I possess free will. My will is not free to make choices outside of external causes. However, I make choices. I do not believe I am a robot as well. What I do believe is that I want to make choices that make the most out of my life and the lives of those around me.

As Christ said, "Yet not what I will, but what YOU WILL." Christ understood that only GOD could truly WILL anything to happen outside of any causes because HE CAUSES ALL THINGS.

Who is this 'god' guy people keep mentioning? Ive yet to see him, or santa.

And from what I can judge from his facebook group, he seems a bit of a douche.l

Originally posted by mysticnoon

Originally posted by Wonders
I have free will. In my opinion, these studies are another scapegoat, meaning, they exasperate societies problems like all of the other soft-kill agents that are set in place, they are there to destroy the good that comes from accepting responsibility for one's actions.

Even if your conscious choices are governed by unconscious influences, you are still the agent performing those actions with conscious awareness, so the responsibilities and consequences belong to you.

I quite agree.

Thank you for that food for thought. It makes me think about how a woman described demons to act. She said that evil spirits are lazy, that they say a few key trigger words and people run with that. If you'll read one of my threads you'll see that there was a time where I spoke in tongues, and during that time, an evil spirit said, "You sound soo stupid." I immediately was made aware that it was trying to get me to willfully stop what God was doing with me, but because I didn't command the demon to leave in the name of Jesus, it persisted, because I didn't resist it. As James 4:7 says: So humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
God is so much bigger than our problems, he is able and willing to take care of us mentally physically and spiritually for as we live in these bodies the three can not be excluded from one another as they are all interconnected.

reply to post by TheBandit795


If 95% of my actions are done unconsciously then what 5% actions are done consciously? What I think the OP is trying to state is that we are used to a certain lifestyle so the things we do we don't really think about it we just do them because that's how we have been brought up to live.

What about when I start thinking hard of what to do...plan A or plan B...that is defiantly conscious thought.

making the unconscious conscious through purposeful intent is the path to attaining true freedom over and within one's own life.

until then, however, it is true - we are on autopilot. unless we awaken to a deeper truth - that we have quite a bit of power over ourselves, more so than our mainstream culture/conventional society communicates that we do. no, not necessarily over everything in our lives... some things are, and will always be, out of our direct control. but we always, 100% of the time, have the capability within us to respond with intention, in any manner we choose, to external events (and even internal - our feelings are OUR CHOICE) if we choose to take the responsibility for them on.

person A harms person B - maybe there was nothing person B could have done to prevent person A from harming them. but person B has the control (if they choose to take it on) over how they react to the actions of A. and if person A is a negative/vampiric individual, person B could learn from the situation and reflect on some of the character traits exhibited by person A to be able to recognize similarly unsavory people in the future. people that might not be the best to be around - from strangers on a bus (beware of those with creeper stares, idk) to close friends (those that are manipulative, or take more than they give). and do things slightly better next time around, choosing better people to be around as much as possible, without making excuses (thereby giving their power, or "free will" away), or blaming everyone else but themselves (also handing over ownership of their own person to the hands of others), etc.

truly, learning what one can (and should!) be responsible for, or control, in their own lives and what they can't control (i.e., the behaviors of other people) is a KEY component of free will. one must be conscious of this power, or they will be easily controlled and manipulated. they will not perceive very much of their lives at all as being of their choosing - and even if someone lives in a more oppressive environment, there are still ways they can harness more individual power... even if it's only over their thoughts and feelings (if they're physically oppressed).

just my $0.02

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
You raise the question that most use to legitimize the concept of free will. Sure, you are FREE (i.e. not restricted) to make choices, but the freedom to make choices does not constitute free will. If you WILL something, can you do so in the context that the choice you make, has not been influenced or caused for you to make that choice at that particular time. In order for you to absolute FREE WILL, you must me able to make choices without them having been caused for you to have made them in the first place.

I think the problem arises when people conflate two different levels of perception.

From God's perspective, we can surmise that everything is predetermined. (Biblical "even the hairs on your head are numbered"). From our human perspective, we do have conditioned free will. They are two distinct perspectives, not one and the same.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by Mizzijr

 

What is described here is the LAW of Cause and Effect. Nothing escapes the principle of Cause and Effect, but there are many planes of Causation. We have free will as we know it, the problem is that many of us can't understand or comprehend the 'cause' in which we are affected by. Therefore we have a limited amount of choices in which we can 'effect' the situation at hand.

One way to look at it I suppose, another would be that the law of cause and effect is like a vast ocean that has existed long before we were here and will be here long before we are gone. So we are not freely choosing our decision we are merely reacting to outside forces and stimulants given our choices within the vastness of the ocean known as cause and effect. We are not choosing so much more as we are reacting, much like an animal would react to a fire, or a predator, is that really free will? No it is not, it is merely and like you said the law of cause and effect. And our choices are limited to those scopes which bind us to the mortal coil. We do not have free will, we have a cumulative effect usually over long periods of time on the overall aspect of cause and effect.

Yes, yes you are right. But that doesn't mean you can not become a 'mover' in this big game of "Cause and Effect". If you become a 'causer' you become a ruler of other people or things in your OWN space. True that outside forces such as the All acts upon us. But we must use one law against another law to overcome those outside forces. Let's say that fire that can burn us and causes us to flinch can be effected by us instead. We can cause a lot of things in fire such as death of the flame. We can take that same flame and cause fear in animals, we can take that same flame (not literally) and make weapons and cause wars and death and famine like we do now. So remember cause and effect works both ways. Every truth is but a half truth and there are two poles to everything.

You, my friend can cause a revolution. You can cause anything you want, although you must obey the law and the law must be used on higher planes of causation in order to cause anything to be effected on the lower. You must climb the ladder. Remember, we are within the All, although too.. The All is within us.

Now I may be completely missing the point. If everybody here is talking about doing things on a whim at any moment. Then no, we are not free. We are all bound by natural laws within the All. How can we be any more free while escaping death at the same time?

You speak of the impossible... inside of the flesh that is

Originally posted by akushla99
reply to post by vethumanbeing

vethumanbeing
"It is a hard thing to image my being as a corpse, even if perfectly manicured and preserved, I will fight this idea form to the death (it is so undignified). Oh nice cars I would imagine some not (worker clunkers should get allocades too). So the vehicles were not driven by a suicidal owner; that is good news. Sometimes as far as the commitee is concerned, it is not 'out to lunch' just trying to decide where to eat and in the process blows the hour time permit. Presuppose the everfaithfull roach coach delivery truck at 10:30 will have pizza. Are you saying there are others involved, the 'real decision makers' may be lurking (NOT THE SNEAKY SOUL STEALERS)."

akushla99
Oh, I credit the carapaces that just 'got me to where I needed to go'...was really an affection based on beauty, although some of the beautiful ones were not practical

...rusted out 'corpse'...you leave them behind to organically rejoin the elements, where a vehicle that has outlived its stated purpose can break down to make another...dust to dust...
'Lurkers'...bardo thought form, in your ear, transmigrational, basically dumb, eat fear food, loves to play, son of sam dog made me do it...lurkers...
Other 'Lurkers'...intuition, gut feel, transmigrational, civil conference-room, It's your deal - we're only here to advise...lurkers...

If rust and oil and decomposing a car body is Earths version of a 1000 years of transmutation so be it. If I were it Id rather an un-embalmed human corpse that the native specie of insect/beetle and carrion eater extrordinaire take care of it: buzzard, crow, coyote; for the bones the mule or white tail deer chew them up as they love the calcium contained within (they applied for the job description, and I have their resumes somewhere in a file drawer). You have feet to get you where you are going, but rubber round ones that spin are better than lightening bolt grounders. Its the intuition that lurks within the human, its the lurker in the brain we fail to recognise, that other thing that looks back at us in the mirror. Its my deal and I need all of the help I can get.