The Utterly Ridiculous Nature of the Public During a Tragedy

Originally posted by yourmaker

I thought you knew by now that I love to read all sides of an argument.
What I don't like is the specific targeting of a specific side for a certain agenda.

Aww.. You ought to know by now, I debate topics, not people unless I open a reply by using someone's specific name ..then it's personal and just as rarely as possible at that. Agenda driven attacks? In all fairness, I see a lot of that being accused ...and among a few frequent fliers to the ban status, I suppose it's true. Outside of those being banned and causing trouble on a regular basis? I see ignorance (In the mirror occasionally too! ) but not really agenda driven posting?

I can agree with government, and I can agree with terrorists. It doesn't make me a sympathizer with either.

And likewise, I don't jump to extreme conclusions about everyone here like they seem to be doing to each other lately.

Well, now then I must say I misread you and perhaps mistook your wording to be too similar with others who have become first, last and always about Anti-Cop, Anti-Military, Anti-America and Anti-anything they don't control or personally interact with in their own life. In that? Ooops... (holds paw out to be slapped) My bad, if misread

I don't try to cling to any one idea. I may still do it though, unaware.
But what i'm seeing is the close minded out to close everyone's mind the same.

Do you mean pro or anti-government sentiments? I'm honestly not sure because as much as I see people saying 'conspiracy theories aren't tolerated like they used to be', it's the few voices suggesting 'Hey? Maybe there isn't a whole conspiracy to this after all?' that seem to be mercilessly attacked and stomped?

Like my reply to this thread, was deserving in your mind, to warrant a reply with your idea.
I read it, and now feel compelled to react.

I appreciate your reply too. This thread does hit on a MAJOR issue I think is impacting our little community here and the members of it. I've almost walked away myself, a few times in recent months. I know some big names have by the private goodbye notes sent to myself and others.... It certainly is a valid point to ponder.

As far as leaving? Wow.... Yeah... I guess it is about that these days.

I said why. It's because it feels like some people are specifically targeting others.

Now I did misread that. I took it for a 'this changes or I'm outta here!', as is put forward so often... You're right about the tendency to be personal, nasty and downright vicious. Sometimes I think it crosses into outright intimidation and bullying, too. Not near how it happens elsewhere, but then nothing here is quite like it is elsewhere, right? lol....

Respect the people, hate the idea all you like.
I get the impression that because I talk about something in particular that I am instantly liable for scrutiny because of it.

You too eh? lol.. Okay, I think this is one of those instances where lack of inflection, tone and context is a real killer online. We feel 100% the same on that point. I recall even having a few different people say, publicly in posts to me, "I thought you were one of us.....??' and 'I sure misread you! You're one of them!'.

The first one stands out as one I've read more than once. It isn't right to be personally judged by the opinions on topics, is it?

What if I didn't hold the particular beliefs I stated in this thread but only said them as part of devil's advocate?

Coming to the end of this? I half suspect you did just that. If so, well, it likely made folks think and sure added some life to the discussion, eh?

Yes, there are people who jump to conclusions and who do not utilize common sense. Some of these people see a conspiracy everywhere they look, which is not a good thing, because along with that belief usually comes some of the aforementioned lapses in common sense and judgement. However, I do not think anyone should trust the government or police so much that they blindly accept every single thing these people say. If they had a track record of telling the truth and doing things the right way, then I could understand this "blind faith," but the truth is that this is not the case. Some of the biggest criminal cases in American history, especially a case like 9/11, are so inconsistent, have so many eyewitnesses to the contrary of the official story, are lacking evidence to back up the claims made, etc., that to accept the official story actually makes a person more ignorant than those who see a conspiracy everywhere they look.

There are certain pieces of information that cannot and should not be released, as they could compromise the case, as you stated. However, it is not as if this information will be released after everything is said and done. Going back to the 9/11 case, what in the world is the purpose of still keeping all of that information and "evidence" locked up from the public view? And not just 9/11, but virtually any major "terrorist" action ever carried out on US soil. Do YOU forget who gives the government their power? Do you forget who the government MUST answer to? The government always forgets who gives them their power and who they must answer to. While on a related subject, I will mention firearms as well, as I would be willing to bet you are all for banning them outright. Since it has been PROVEN that the government lies to the people, and that the government does carry out false flag events, and yes this is proven by documentation and personal testimony both, it is obvious that the government as a whole does not care about the fact that they work for the people. And because the possibility would always be there that the government might forget this little fact, the US Founding Fathers included the 2nd amendment, whose purpose was to offer the people a means to fight a government who overstepped their bounds, and did not wish to relinquish their power.

And you can bet that RIGHT NOW, if the people attempted to peacefully do something about the fact that the government is disobeying many different laws, even those in the Constitution, the government would NOT let that happen. They would declare these patriots to be terrorists and criminals, even though all they were doing was attempting to hold the government accountable, which is their legal right. It is actually their legal duty, not right. So the 2nd amendment becomes obviously necessary when placed in this context, and it was this context our Founders had in mind when including this amendment.

And I am aware that this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, at least not at first glance, but looking a bit deeper it actually does. I included this because you are part of those with the mindset that anyone who accepts or believes in conspiracies, even though they have been proven to exist both by direct and circumstantial evidence, is somehow a nut, or is somehow wrong. So you want to rant about those who do not prove things, but rather just rant, but we both know that even if the proof that these people included was actually true, you and those like you would not be inclined to believe it. You would likely simply dismiss the issues just like the government does when dealing with the people. Of course you may believe a conspiracy has occurred if it is plastered all over the MSM, but that is not likely to happen, given that the MSM is commercially and corporately controlled, and that the US government does in fact interfere with what is shown or said on the MSM networks. And this HAS been proven by US government documents, at least in that a plan was drafted to control the media. This can be found in declassified papers and has been discussed on ATS many times.

So someone should not see a conspiracy everywhere they look, but they darn sure better be keeping their eyes open for one, considering all of the lies and wars and whatnot that occurred after 9/11. Bush knew, and this has been PROVEN, that there were no WMDs in Iraq. Again, unrelated, but still relavent in that we are talking about not only actions of individuals, but MINDSETS. You were criticizing the conspiratorial mindset, while I am criticizing the mindset of those who buy every little thing officials spoon feed to them, when there is a plethora of evidence that officials WILL and DO lie to the public, even though they work for them.

reply to post by darkangel831


An excellent post, darkangel 831....I agree with you entirely.

Unfortunately, this is among other things a conspiracy website.( Most of which is rubbish, with a few gems thrown in.)

A.T.S. attracts legions of armchair crackpots and nutters, who, rather than use clear thinking and reasoning, choose to let their egos override common sense, and not to wait until facts gave been established.

This, of course, is their right. As it is also the right of the logical thinking, reasoning contributors to challenge them.

It does make for good entertainment ...

If you don't like people discussing outlandish thoughts, in your opinion, then just don't read the threads? Your on a conspiracy site and complaining about the ideas people post about. Really?

THANK YOU to the OP for putting into words exactly what I've been thinking these last few days.

reply to post by yourmaker

I couldnt agree more. This is a conspiracy website.

Yet the establishment mantra is becoming more commonplace on a daily basis.

Soon we'll be forced to go to the mainstream sites so we can discuss alternative theories...

It's a trust and control issue of course and it's understandable to want to protect those who might be endangered by release of certain information and those who will seek to abuse this information. It's a hard problem to deal with as almost all nation states have a track record of lying to the public, the abusers being politicians to further their agendas and in turn endangering the public by further control of the masses. On the other hand we have criminals (non-official politicians in a sense) who might seek also to abuse this information to destabilize the grip of the current law makers and shape the world in their image or possibly just to hurt involved parties physically for some more minor reason. Of course official politicians will also struggle within for different goals, some more honest then others.

A delicate balance of power, currently however it seems the law is more corrupt than honest and thus eligible of as much scrutiny as possible to expose these lies. The institution however is still a necessary evil as evidenced by the general public's conduct toward his fellowman, but the conduct is also created by the very same institution which seeks to abolish this. But when this institution has been permeated with corruption it no longer seeks to equate the balance, it only serves itself and those who work for it. Fortunately truth seems to have certain tendency to leak out no matter what, maintaining the house of lies takes so much work that eventually all have to put in work to keep it standing i.e 1984.

Relevant video from an Alan Watts speech for the engineers at IBM called "Who guards the guards?"

reply to post by darkangel831


couldn't agree more the sharing of photos of innocent people on here was shameful and dangerous. accusing innocent people of being the bombers and suggesting victims are actors was embarrassing to see in here. just like the threads suggesting the grieving parents at a school shooting are all actors or faking grief.

It's a shame there used to be a lot of interesting stuff on here now i feel embarrassed if my husband sees me looking at the site,i think my time reading on here will come to an end soon, it's getting too hard to wade through the crap to find decent threads

hope it improves for everybody soon

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I can accept that the government uses MSM as it's propaganda tool - to sway public opinion. So I stay diligent and I research and form an opinion with views from many sides.

So why can't others understand - that terrorist's use the internet for their propaganda machine?

How is it only one side has propaganda? Do you really think in the terrorist's play book - there aren't detailed instruction on how to use the internet to radicalize a young mind? And I saw those radicalize youths come out of the woodwork after this tragedy - and start beating their war drums. To foster in others hearts hate - not a healthy dose of mistrust - BUT hate for their own people and the government that governs them - made up of those same people!



Cirque

Man, this thread turned into bickering quick.

I suppose it can't be helped, considering the OP sounds kinda biased.

Any hint of bias, and people from both sides will rush to their allies' aid in argument. There's a fine line between bickering and debating, guys... where is it? Its hard to see... but it exists, I promise.

Don't get so riled up, guys. Otherwise, you won't be able to think straight.

Agreed,

I think the conspiracies coming out of the Boston bombings are pathetic, I read one that was showed a picture of one of the suspects feeling the scene claiming that he still had his backpack on after the bomb went off. When that picture was scrutinised and blown up and clearly showed that no he didn’t have his backpack on another thread sprung up now claiming that the picture had been photoshoped to remove the backpack.

Its like the posts that say “that man is wearing a hat that looks like it might have a CRAFT symbol on it so it must mean it was a false flag”. I mean seriously, so what I have a punisher t-shirt and even if they did work for CRAFT (it now seems they were actually national guard) it doesn’t actually mean anything.

If people can’t see how absurd these theories are then they shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet as it’s probably going to be detrimental to their health.

Alright. Any further insults to anyone will be dealt with posting bans. Decorum people.

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
Most people here are trying to push their agenda, only concerned with whether or not they turn out being right. And even when their shown, with evidence that they were wrong - they won't believe it. And continue to scream whatever theory they have convinced themselves is truth.

Well said!

What bothers me is that the "internet investigators" are people who are hundreds or thousands of miles away, who are not involved in the investigation, who don't have all the details that the people on scene have -- and yet feel that with this incomplete information they are able to decide the whole truth and that they couldn't possibly be wrong about things.

Alex Jones and his ilk don't help, either.

It does create a sort of "panic news media" where the wildest rumor is taken as truth and nobody vets the sources (how many people falsely said they were in Boston and saw parts of the manhunt, only to be outed later as liars?)

Those people might have been killed by some citizen thinking they were going to save everyone from another bomb.

A good point. In this case, some of the victims received death threats because they were flagged by conspiracy theorists. One man found his picture on the front page of the news paper, accused of being the bomber.

The Atlantic has a very good story about this, and about the horrible consequences of Internet Lynch Mobs.

And as for those who think "government coverup/false flag", I would suggest that you go visit North Korea for awhile (or similar countries -- and for the record, I've lived abroad) and see exactly what REAL false flag/government coverups look like. Yeah, America does some stupid stuff and the government does stupid stuff. But it's nothing like East Germany under the Communists (I have been there, by the way) or any one of a dozen similar examples.

I'd like to go back to the real conspiracies instead of the wild "everything is a false flag" reports we've been getting lately that mostly stroke someone's ego by making them feel important -- but divert attention away from bigger questions (like, did that fertilizer company in Texas fake its emergency plans to avoid fines?)

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
I can accept that the government uses MSM as it's propaganda tool - to sway public opinion. So I stay diligent and I research and form an opinion with views from many sides.

Actually, if you want to do some direct research, start listening to old radio shows and old commercials from the 1940's and 1950's. There's some pretty heavy-handed propaganda there (even in the commercials) and learning what it sounds and looks like from back then helps you understand what's likely today's propaganda and what isn't.

i've found a clue that this bombing may be a set up but unable to create a new thread so writing this just to let you know will hopefully be up at 21:00gmt