Who receives God's Grace? To law or not to law?

reply to post by EnochWasRight

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

What you quoted in your post was my response to your claim that "The risen Christ is the church.".
Paul is making an analogy about the people in the church playing different parts according to their gifts, calling the church the body with Christ as the head.
That is not supporting your claim.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Why does it matter if one sees the Christ as mystical and another understands him through worldly knowledge?

I matters to me personally what I want to put my energy into.
Someone else can, if that's there thing.
I have a big backlog of things I am interested in that I want to get to and it doesn't include other religions of some esoteric aspects that some Christians want to get into.
It's just not my topic. I'm not criticizing it, it is just not on my radar screen.

reply to post by sacgamer25

It is my understanding that Grace is God's unconditional love.

The understanding of what?
You can think of a word, then create a definition of it, so what?
What matters to me on this forum was what the writer of the New Testament was thinking when he used that word.

Rather than me going through your post word for word saying. "Not", I'll just say that the above applies to the entire rest of your post. You redefine everything to suite you own personal theory. That is not something I have any use for, sorry.

reply to post by jmdewey60


www.abovetopsecret.com...
Dewey, Go to this post and read the entire thing. There is more than enough scriptural support for me to claim that God unconditionally loves his entire creation. Since light/love/Christ/Holy Spirit is the first thing he created. All things were created by love for love. This is a correct interpretation of the gospel, simply because it cannot be against the gospel. The bible says exactly what I am saying.

You have to separate yourself from that horrible hell doctrine that causes you to sit in judgment. You are just a man; nothing you believe can guarantee you anything. But if you love others you will find love. I believe in heaven after life but I also believe that heaven is a spiritual state of mind that one can enter today.

I actually believe it is possible for us to bring the messianic age to full understanding now. We have to let go of religion if we are to pursue Christ.

I hope this is not too offensive. But to me religion is like a group of kids on the playground all screaming God Loves me more. Can we grow up and realize that God pours his love out on us in accordance to our deeds. Can we not just see if you love others that we find love? Can't we agree that love is the only concept known to man that is worth worship/pursuit? Anything short of love is failure.

reply to post by sacgamer25

. . . God unconditionally loves his entire creation.

I don't believe in a God who created the universe.
We all love each other, some of use are better able to put that feeling into practice.
Some are God, who has less incumberances so can be helpful in a way that we can't, but we have a duty to perform acts of love, to whatever ability we do have.

We have to let go of religion if we are to pursue Christ.

"Religion" in the New Testament means to perform acts of piety.

You have to separate yourself from that horrible hell doctrine that causes you to sit in judgment.

I don't believe in a "doctrine". Hell is in the New Testament, plus I know Hell from personal experience having died twice.

reply to post by bb23108

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

The Grace of God is God's business. All one can do is prepare the body-mind through fully turning oneself to God in love. This gift of turning is indeed Grace that is given, even from the very beginning, and if one's responsive turning is true, then the Divine will likely gift one further with real spiritual embrace and transformation - but when or how is not one's rightful concern nor one's business, only surrender is.

edit on 18-4-2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

To me, this is one of the most profound posts I have read in these forums.

I believe every soul is constantly showered in Grace, but not necessarily receptive to this Grace.

If a bucket is placed upside down in the rain, it will never collect any water. So it is with our relationship to Grace. Unless we become receptive through turning the bucket of our soul towards the unending shower of Love and Grace, we will remain ignorant of this Love. But the paradox is, that it is only through Grace that we become receptive. So as bb23108, all we can hope to do is surrender, and even that is not in our hands...

reply to post by mysticnoon


Only one thing to remember. Although all things are up to God we have still been instructed to feed the sheep. What this means may differ for all but to whom much is given much is expected. We are all one after all.

reply to post by jmdewey60


And I know hell having lived once. Some things simply have more than one meaning. I understand what hell means to you, I know where you are. I am only trying to tell you that fear is truly only the beggining of wisdom. When you can submit completely to the lord the fear will go. All things are under his direction, they always have been. As Jesus said "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven".

If fear is the beginning of wisdom than love must be the end. For none can be made perfect through fear but love makes all things perfect. You can both be a pawn in the great game of life and be called to be more. God loves us all unconditionally. We should always fear the lord but not in the way you understand. Their is a fear that is born out of love, that is the fear that makes a man Holy.

Fear not that heaven does not await, rather fear that you have not done everything in your heart to do. Pursue love with all you are and leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit. The spirit will come to anyone who seeks, he who seeks finds.

reply to post by mysticnoon

Originally posted by mysticnoon
To me, this is one of the most profound posts I have read in these forums.

I believe every soul is constantly showered in Grace, but not necessarily receptive to this Grace.

If a bucket is placed upside down in the rain, it will never collect any water. So it is with our relationship to Grace. Unless we become receptive through turning the bucket of our soul towards the unending shower of Love and Grace, we will remain ignorant of this Love. But the paradox is, that it is only through Grace that we become receptive. So as bb23108, all we can hope to do is surrender, and even that is not in our hands...

Thank you for your kind words. And thank you for bucket metaphor too.

The commandments of love are a paradox in the sense that they require surrender to God first rather than simply trying to fulfill them by one's own creature power and thereby expecting as a result that one will somehow surrender to and love God fully. So they are a paradox to the unsurrendered aspirant.

But the beauty of the commandments of love are that true surrender becomes the only option. One realizes (usually after trying in various ways) that no separate ego-I is going to love God with the whole heart, soul, mind, and body nor one's neighbor as oneself - only God can provide the means for such love. It is actually very presumptuous of anyone to assume they can do this without surrendering to God first.

Of course, this paradox does not let one off the hook in terms of fully loving God. On the contrary, one does everything possible to avail the whole body-mind to God's Presence/Love by living rightly in terms of supporting whole bodily equanimity for constant surrender to and reception of God. And this requires living practical disciplines of right diet, exercise, work, service, non-promiscuity, devotional/spiritual practices, etc. In other words, one surrenders with the whole feeling body-mind - physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, as Jesus' commandments state - with the whole being.

On this basis of true surrender to God, one recognizes we all arise in a non-separate field of relatedness (unity) and so can also love one's neighbor truly as oneself (or as one's very self).

reply to post by sacgamer25


I thought the whole point of Jesus's message as "God is Love" was the pinacle proclaimation. Why is it that this has been missed or miss-interpreted. It seems very clear. Should another word for Love Energy been used? Call it what you like, 'radiation' would be my first word explaining a life giving abundant never ceasing energy that duplicates itself, as in feeds itself in not a sanctomious way (God interpretation), one that is apparent real and physically applies to the circumstance of the HUMAN experience and never the Godliness for some reason (as it is not physical). Emminant Domaine which is Creature based comes close to the overrunning of civilization, not based in scripture or a God factor. We as Americans did this to the Native American. the Catholic Church has no redemption or explaination if its CAUSAL factors (riches to be found to fund themselves, the Italian Aristocracy, Spanish, etc...VATICAN CITY). What a joke; and no one sees this?

reply to post by vethumanbeing


You simply have to believe that even the misunderstanding came about for a universal purpose that is playing out each day. Any day could be the day of judgment for all of us. When one chooses to judge himself he can then learn to let go of judgment, but many refuse to accept this message. Capitalism is the exact opposite of judging oneself, since one becomes the only true self. In your pursuit you become disconnected from the body. You can't gain at the expense of others and expect to profit with spiritual gifts.

My now 8 year old daughter said to me the other day. I can see that poor people have more love than people with money. I said you know what baby I believe you are right, because they are not so loaded down with the anxiety that accompanies wealth.

I have met a wealthy man who was happy but his employees were also very happy. So you can know that they felt rewarded for their efforts according to what was right. I have met men with more wealth who are miserable because they refuse to stop pushing for the last penny. It is as though greed has consumed them, if no one intervenes they will die in their greed.

It is perplexing how the answer has always been right there. And although we may choose different language to understand it. It all points to love being the evolution of spirit, and the only remaining step in the evolution of mankind. Many seem to be "awake" if that is even a term, but what does it mean? Is it possible that we are ready to evolve as a whole body, or will only a few find the truth like before?

I was born optimistic so I'm hopping to witness the birth of the Messianic age, the age of love, the age of Aquarius, I don't care why you believe that an age of love could dominate, just believe and do it. What is the worst that can happen if we choose to love one another? Why does this not make since to everyone?

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

You simply have to believe that even the misunderstanding came about for a universal purpose that is playing out each day. Any day could be the day of judgment for all of us. When one chooses to judge himself he can then learn to let go of judgment, but many refuse to accept this message. Capitalism is the exact opposite of judging oneself, since one becomes the only true self. In your pursuit you become disconnected from the body. You can't gain at the expense of others and expect to profit with spiritual gifts.

My now 8 year old daughter said to me the other day. I can see that poor people have more love than people with money. I said you know what baby I believe you are right, because they are not so loaded down with the anxiety that accompanies wealth.

I have met a wealthy man who was happy but his employees were also very happy. So you can know that they felt rewarded for their efforts according to what was right. I have met men with more wealth who are miserable because they refuse to stop pushing for the last penny. It is as though greed has consumed them, if no one intervenes they will die in their greed.

It is perplexing how the answer has always been right there. And although we may choose different language to understand it. It all points to love being the evolution of spirit, and the only remaining step in the evolution of mankind. Many seem to be "awake" if that is even a term, but what does it mean? Is it possible that we are ready to evolve as a whole body, or will only a few find the truth like before?

I was born optimistic so I'm hopping to witness the birth of the Messianic age, the age of love, the age of Aquarius, I don't care why you believe that an age of love could dominate, just believe and do it. What is the worst that can happen if we choose to love one another? Why does this not make since to everyone?

Why does universal spirit intrepretation have to be a misunderstanding? I realize the point of planet Earth (CUT OFF FROM GOD) is for us (that choose the experience) is an excellerated learning school. Allright, here is the problem, only 5 percent of humans here realise this. WHY. We disconnect when we leave this body and only then; even with somnobulistic meditation you are still connected to your physical. Greed I think you misplace for sustainance, home hearth etc. You speak of the poor being happy, in context to what, their peers, the wealthy? Which is the most privilaged. The poor in knowing the value of suffering or the rich in devaluing life to having a doorman and live-in maid (in exact not living anymore, letting others do it for them; the laundry necessities of life). The planet has to evolve and desires to include its human animal flora inhabitants. Whether it will do so is a question. Civilizations have incarnated in totality, I can name two with certaintude, the Maya and the Egyption. Poof, there they occurred. No question, no pre-form, the buildings everything at ONCE. Who did this and why; to uplift the human once again, failure upon failure and at least leave a vestige of monumental building expertise. The Love element has not had a mathmatical formulae put to it, as mass has or energy. Once someone does that we may have a start at understanding its FORCE-thereby ITS CREATOR. No one has yet to attempt a mathmatical description of God; only its creations.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Interesting using math to prove love theory? I know we have brain science that can prove love theory, but math would be the final piece. If love could be proven as a theory of math than all would at least have to believe that love is real. So many accept such a poor substitute, why they don't spit it out at some point is quite confusing.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Interesting using math to prove love theory? I know we have brain science that can prove love theory, but math would be the final piece. If love could be proven as a theory of math than all would at least have to believe that love is real. So many accept such a poor substitute, why they don't spit it out at some point is quite confusing.

I really wonder why no one the best of mental/math minds have not tackled what is described (adnausem) in the popular culture nomenclature "LOVE" (the answer to all "all you need is love" factor). It is a force not an emotion. Everyone seems to shy from defining it (I KNOW IT HAS AN EQUATION JUST LIKE GRAVITY oops or not). Religous types tout it, where/why (not Galileo still imprisoned in a tower) are the Vaticans Mathmaticians at work on this 24-7. They are all astronomers working at the Vatican Observitory on Mt. Graham AZ LOOKING FOR GOD. Someone there must have some theoretical physics knowledge or algebreic fundimentals. Out of all of human brilliance, no one has attempted to solve the Love angle formulae OF FORCE expressed not proven.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Interesting using math to prove love theory? I know we have brain science that can prove love theory, but math would be the final piece. If love could be proven as a theory of math than all would at least have to believe that love is real. So many accept such a poor substitute, why they don't spit it out at some point is quite confusing.

I really wonder why no one the best of mental/math minds have not tackled what is described (adnausem) in the popular culture nomenclature "LOVE" (the answer to all "all you need is love" factor). It is a force not an emotion. Everyone seems to shy from defining it (I KNOW IT HAS AN EQUATION JUST LIKE GRAVITY oops or not). Religous types tout it, where/why (not Galileo still imprisoned in a tower) are the Vaticans Mathmaticians at work on this 24-7. They are all astronomers working at the Vatican Observitory on Mt. Graham AZ LOOKING FOR GOD. Someone there must have some theoretical physics knowledge or algebreic fundimentals. Out of all of human brilliance, no one has attempted to solve the Love angle formulae OF FORCE expressed not proven.

edit on 25-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

I will give you this because I think it points to a creator. Einsteins therory of relativity to me proves a creator. It both predicts black holes but leaves science with the answer infinity. To me that is God saying everything you see had to be created at one time and if you don't believe me I left you a fingerprint to prove the concept of infinity.

Science hates this. This is why the search for other possibilities. But even then if the equation works the black hole is still infinity or 0 which it obviously cannot be unless it too was created, simply to break the law. So that no one is blameless.

Originally posted by sacgamer25

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Interesting using math to prove love theory? I know we have brain science that can prove love theory, but math would be the final piece. If love could be proven as a theory of math than all would at least have to believe that love is real. So many accept such a poor substitute, why they don't spit it out at some point is quite confusing.

I really wonder why no one the best of mental/math minds have not tackled what is described (adnausem) in the popular culture nomenclature "LOVE" (the answer to all "all you need is love" factor). It is a force not an emotion. Everyone seems to shy from defining it (I KNOW IT HAS AN EQUATION JUST LIKE GRAVITY oops or not). Religous types tout it, where/why (not Galileo still imprisoned in a tower) are the Vaticans Mathmaticians at work on this 24-7. They are all astronomers working at the Vatican Observitory on Mt. Graham AZ LOOKING FOR GOD. Someone there must have some theoretical physics knowledge or algebreic fundimentals. Out of all of human brilliance, no one has attempted to solve the Love angle formulae OF FORCE expressed not proven.

edit on 25-4-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

I will give you this because I think it points to a creator. Einsteins therory of relativity to me proves a creator. It both predicts black holes but leaves science with the answer infinity. To me that is God saying everything you see had to be created at one time and if you don't believe me I left you a fingerprint to prove the concept of infinity. Science hates this. This is why the search for other possibilities. But even then if the equation works the black hole is still infinity or 0 which it obviously cannot be unless it too was created, simply to break the law. So that no one is blameless.

Science does not like to believe in "a creator" after all they have the mathmetical equations to EVERYTHING except maybe the most important, least looked into GOD FACTORISM (failed at it or never attempted). I completely agree that God has a tremendous sense of humor; and probably is still waiting for an explaination of itself to itself/whether it be equations or it SHOWING ITSELF. Perhaps as you say it is in the quest for understanding the human realises some things may not be answerable. NOOOO, if we truely do a vision quest will find we are God playing the greatest joke upon ourselves EVER. I think about the center of our galaxy, the black hole, I at times envision it as childish playtime sucked into and lost for a while to reappear as brilliance un-acknowedged (MISSED), Let me name them; every possibility imagined to/for mankind (the trick is to recognise the SUBTLE FORCE).