Vatican seeks to rebrand its relationship with science

reply to post by Phoenix267


Nono!! Please keep it going here, you guys haven't derailed it at all!! I was just checking in while the mopped part of the floor dries - and came to see what replies there were.

I see progress here! godlover has always been very brief in his posts (what I've seen of them), and this is the first time I've seen him drawn out enough to explain his views.....
your views also are relevant,
as are mideasts, charles, and everyone else who was motivated to reply to the OP.

ALSO cody and Warrior!! Thanks so much for your contributions. I'm feeling more hopeful now than I have in a long time.
I'm delighted with how it's going!!!


~wild

reply to post by wildtimes


Alright. Just checking. Because we're just discussing our views about religion and science. While the topic is about the Vatican or Catholic church trying to rebrand its relationship science. Felt like I was taking over your thread.

reply to post by charles1952


As about the era of 6th Imam , when the pressure on him was less than ever , he could teach about 4000 students. muslims could gather and establish schools. I know Iranian figures such as Abu ali sina(Doctor , philosopher) , abu rayhan biruni (Chemistry scientist ,discovered Alcohol) , Knaje nezamul molke tusi (made a observatory and wrote books on position of stars) , Mulla sadra (philosopher) , Sheikh bahayi(artist and philosopher) were living on the shining era of Iranian Muslims pioneering in science , religion and art.

Islam is different than what your MSM tells you it is. It is different than extremists do.

sheikh bahayi

َAbu ali sin - also know as ibne sina

khaje Nasir al-Din al-Tusi

Khaje nezal al mulk e tusi

Khayam neishaburi

Mulla sadra

Abu rayhan biruni

reply to post by Phoenix267


Not at all! I'm not a Catholic, Phoenix, in case that helps explain my pov. I don't subscribe to any particular form of religion. I think what everyone here has said is profound, and that together we can figure it out. You see how we're all in agreement on this? That, almost, in my mind, is a MIRACLE! We're breaking down barriers, building bridges, learning more about each other - and that is the ONLY way to move forward, in my opinion.

I do, for now, believe that evolution is part of the 'plan' to begin with - we, as short-lived mortals - are too impatient to see that we are simply blips on the monitor of the Universe's unfolding. There's no reason to think that there wasn't a Divine Plan, as far as I can tell....

and I actually see progress with religion and science becoming more merged to give us both material understanding AND philosophical, spiritual knowledge that has remained 'hidden' behind religious public activity. I believe that the masters - including Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, and, from what I've learned lately of Islam, Mohammed - were likely all teaching the same thing, actually.

I think there's not enough emphasis on the philosophical and esoteric aspects of religion, and this thread is showing me how others think about it that I'd not have suspected. I wish I could APPLAUD all of you!!!!!!!!

Stars and more stars!! Thank you! For helping me hone in on these nebulous, contentious 'opinions' and 'theories' that we all have.

reply to post by mideast


Indeed. I have learned so much from you, logical7, skorpion, babloyi and others, and have very much valued your contributions to helping teach readers more about the 'real' Islam.

Wow. My heart feels swollen, and I can't do enough smiley-faces to portray it.

I LOVE YOU ALL!
NAMASTE! The divine in me recognizes and adores the divine in you all!
Peace

....edit.....okay, I gotta go mop up some more grime.........

reply to post by godlover25

Really only a small percentage of extremist fundamentalist type Christians believe that evolution should be labeled "evilution" and that the earth was created 6,000 years ago and Adam and Eve walked with dinosaurs and that Genesis is to be interpreted extremely literally....

Well they seem pretty noisy around here! Why do we have an inordinate proportion of them on ATS, I wonder? Makes it seem like there are quite a few. (And why do they want to be on ATS to begin with?) Anyway, that's good to know. I was getting worried.

reply to post by charles1952

My understanding is that documents from the last 75 years are still sealed to protect those who are still alive.

From what, charles?

Kind of like letting Benedict stay in the Vatican to avoid prosecution? I don't understand that part, actually.....
but, don't want to go off on a negative tangent here.

Would make an interesting thread, though, to discuss the Vatican's archives. Go for it! I'll play!

reply to post by wildtimes

Dear wildtimes,

Protection of their privacy. The letters weren't intended for public release, it's like opening someone else's mail.

Also, recall that Vatican City is sovereign. It is a massive player in world diplomacy. Converstations between Popes and Commissars, Presidents, Kings, in fact, all leaders are there. That's not the sort of stuff you throw open casually. Countries often make secret deals to accept an evil to avoid a greater evil. It may be that some things might never be known. But no other country is that open either.

On your idea of a Secret Archives thread? I wouldn't know what to put in it. Almost all of it is in Italian or Latin, a lot is on websites, but there haven't been any tremendous scandals or conspiracies exposed. I'm open for ideas.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by wildtimes


I think because ATS attracts the fringe groups of society in general, so it's not too surprising it attracts the Christian whackos too... believe me, my mother in-law is a fundamentalist Christian, and I'm constantly schooling her and pointing out the folly in her infantile beliefs.

On behalf of intellectual, thinking Christians everywhere, I apologize for those Christians who refuse to think beyond what there born-and-raised in Alabama preacher tells them!

I've never thought that Christianity and science had to be mutually exclusive; yet there's a stigma that somehow the Church has tried to stymie scientific development. Ironic really as the man who came up with the big bang theory was a Catholic priest!

I'd also say that basically the Church established many and pretty much set the standard for (in the Western world at least, if not the entire world) what a university is supposed to be.

So, in a sense, I suppose the Pope's statement shouldn't be surprising.

reply to post by godlover25

On behalf of intellectual, thinking Christians everywhere, I apologize for those Christians who refuse to think beyond what there born-and-raised in Alabama preacher tells them!

Excellent point, and thanks for that.

reply to post by mideast

Dear mideast,

I am very glad that there was a time in it's history when Muslim nations accepted and encouraged science. You should be very proud.

I wish I knew what has happened to it. It doesn't seem to be there anymore. But as I was taught by another poster, (maes2, I think) the study of Allah and the Quoran is much more important and desired than science, so I suppose that's a partial explanation.

With respect,
Charles1952

Christians must, MUST stop being anti-science. Science is not the enemy of religion, but religion has become the enemy of science, and really has been the enemy of science for a long, long time. Let's not forget, people were imprisoned, tortured, and killed by the Catholic church for stating things that are now common knowledge.

We as Christians must understand one simple fact: Science is the gradual unveiling of God's creation. Science will never prove there is no God, science will never prove Christianity is wrong, science will never prove Jesus did not exist, was killed, resurrected, and ascended.

Science isn't even really interested in TRYING to prove these things wrong. They're far more interested in the intricacies of the physical universe.

The Catholic church is doing good by wanting to construct a bridge between religion and science. Let's not forget, long ago religion and science held hands and, together, gave us some of the greatest things humanity has ever created or discovered.

reply to post by FollowTheWhiteRabbit

I may be placing emphasis where you didn't intend it, but your first paragraph is intriguing.

Christians must, MUST stop being anti-science. Science is not the enemy of religion, but religion has become the enemy of science, and really has been the enemy of science for a long, long time.

The very idea that the Church was opposed to science did even exist before the Middle-1800's, and it started in the US during a time when Catholics were hated.

Let's not forget, people were imprisoned, tortured, and killed by the Catholic church for stating things that are now common knowledge.

I suppose by that, you mean Galileo. I never seem to hear of other cases. Interestingly enough, he was imprisoned for about 8 years, but not, as far as I know, tortured or killed. One of his biggest problems was that he had taken a position which was opposed by the vast majority of astromoers and philosophers of the day. He turned out to be right, recognized science and the Church turned out to be wrong.

But how much has the Church hated science? Even the briefest look at Wiki gives us this, which is only a small portion of the article:

The Catholic contribution to the development of the sciences has been formidable. From ancient times, Christian emphasis on practical charity gave rise to the development of systematic nursing and hospitals and the Church remains the single greatest private provider of medical care and research facilities in the world. Following the Fall of Rome, monasteries and convents remained the last bastions of scholarship in Western Europe. During the Middle Ages, the Church founded a well integrated international network of Cathedral schools and Europe's first universities, producing a fine array of scholars like Robert Grosseteste, Albert the Great, Roger Bacon and Thomas Aquinas who helped establish scientific method. During this period, the Church was also a great patron of engineering for the construction of elaborate cathedral architecture.

Since the Renaissance, Catholic scientists (many of them clergymen) have been credited as fathers of a diverse range of scientific fields - including physics (Galileo), acoustics (Mersenne), mineralogy (Agricola), modern chemistry (Lavoisier), modern anatomy (Vesalius), stratigraphy (Steno), bacteriology (Kircher and Pasteur), genetics (Mendel), analytical geometry (Descartes), heliocentric cosmology (Copernicus) atomic theory (Boškovic) and the Big Bang Theory on the origins of the universe (Lemaître). Jesuits devised modern lunar nomenclature and stellar classification and some 35 craters of the moon are named after Jesuits, among whose great scientific polymaths were Francesco Grimaldi and Giambattista Riccioli. The Jesuits also introduced Western science to India and China and translated local texts to be sent to Europe for study. Missionaries contributed significantly to the fields of anthropology, zoology and botany during Europe's Age of Discovery. The Church's patronage of sciences continues through elite institutions like the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and Vatican Observatory.

en.wikipedia.org...

Please, I really think you should reconsider your opinion. Perhaps you hadn't had the chance to see this information before.

Originally posted by FollowTheWhiteRabbit
Christians must, MUST stop being anti-science. Science is not the enemy of religion, but religion has become the enemy of science, and really has been the enemy of science for a long, long time. Let's not forget, people were imprisoned, tortured, and killed by the Catholic church for stating things that are now common knowledge.

We as Christians must understand one simple fact: Science is the gradual unveiling of God's creation. Science will never prove there is no God, science will never prove Christianity is wrong, science will never prove Jesus did not exist, was killed, resurrected, and ascended.

Science isn't even really interested in TRYING to prove these things wrong. They're far more interested in the intricacies of the physical universe.

The Catholic church is doing good by wanting to construct a bridge between religion and science. Let's not forget, long ago religion and science held hands and, together, gave us some of the greatest things humanity has ever created or discovered.

My response: We as Christians must be on the lookout for any future superstitious beliefs posing as science as we were warned in 1 Timonty 6:20. I'm sure there are lots of real Christians that are aware of the Hinduistic philosophical beliefs being taught to our children that attempts to explain our origins, today generally referred to as evolution, like the mystical Big Bang theory, where life supposedly spontaneously exploded from nothing, that teaches our children that all life on earth spontaneously evolved from rocks, and other vain babblings that has and continues to destroy a lot of Christians faith by the time they start college. We Christians must be aware of the high probability that this religion called evolution will serve as the unifying foundation of the world under the Antichrist, tacking on the alien/ancient astronaut theories onto the general theory of evolution, and henceforth we must be aware that this Pope may be the false prophet of the book of Revelation that will aid in this deception, as the Vatican has also jumped on the alien bandwagon in the last few years. Grace be with thee, amen.

Exposing the Pagan Roots of Evolution: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by BlackManINC


Where do I start? In your first paragraph you present a logical fallacy with the no true scotsman. Christianity is the worlds largest religion and it will be impossible to explain who a "True" Christian really is. You're also ignorant about the big bang and evolution theories. Since you terribly try to refute those scientific theories. None of this is religion. It's science. I would love for you to browse the links to understand how science views evolution and the big bang theory.
Talk Origins
Big Bang

reply to post by BlackManINC

May I have a word with you?

I agree that Christians should not accept superstitious beliefs disguised as science, but not all science is a superstitious belief. The Church, as I mentioned above, has encouraged using science as one tool in the search for truth.

I may be oversimplifying, but science comes up with a crazy idea, then checks that idea with experiments to see if that explains the physical world better than the last crazy idea. Evolution is one of those crazy ideas that explains some things better than previous ideas, so science tosses the old ideas and keeps looking for new.

One crazy idea that hasn't been shown to be useful is the idea that life popped up out of nothing but non-living matter. Science is playing with it, but no luck so far. Neither evolution or the Big Bang claims to explain how life came from nothing, indeed the Big Bang hasn't figured out how the huge mass they think started everything was created. In fact, scientists don't think they'll ever find the answer. That's why science isn't the only tool the Church has to find Truth. There's room for both. In fact, the Church teaches that both are necessary.

We Christians must be aware of the high probability that this religion called evolution will serve as the unifying foundation of the world under the Antichrist, tacking on the alien/ancient astronaut theories onto the general theory of evolution,

I'm not changing religion because an Alien tells me to, and I suspect you won't either. The Church will go through many trials, and suffer many deaths and persecutions, but I wouldn't suggest assigning probabilities to what they will be.

and henceforth we must be aware that this Pope may be the false prophet of the book of Revelation that will aid in this deception, as the Vatican has also jumped on the alien bandwagon in the last few years.

He certainly doesn't look, act, or sound like the Anti-Christ. Just because people believe that God may have created life on other planets doesn't make them your enemies. I even believe it's possible, and praise God for it.

Grace be with thee, amen.

And may God's grace be with you and your household.

reply to post by wildtimes


This is good news!
What was done with Galileo and other scientists was very unfortunate and the Church should officially apologise(i don't know if it was ever done)
This change is good, there was a time when being left handed was a sin!
Over zealousness and emotional responses are bad no matter what the cause, like for example defending faith.
If faith needs defending from rationality then its a weak one or the defender is weak in faith(although keeping blind faith is also disastrous)

Increase in knowledge will always change the mindset of people in general(except closeminded ones) and the collective tiny changes over time will make bigger changes like in the OP.

Prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "seek knowledge even if you have to go to china" and "the ink of a scholar is better than the blood of a martyr"

Thanks for another good thread Wildtimes!

Originally posted by godlover25
reply to post by mideast

 

Doesn't the Quran have some Surahs that can be interpreted as Allah creating Humans through means of evolution?

yes there are Ayats that can be 'interpreted' to support evolution.

21:30. Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth
were joined together as one united
piece, then We parted them? And We
have made from water every living
thing. Will they not then believe?

24:45. Allah has created every moving (living) creature from water. Of them
there are some that creep on their
bellies, some that walk on two legs,
and some that walk on four. Allah
creates what He wills. Verily! Allah is
Able to do all things.

25:53. And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one
palatable and sweet, and the other salt
and bitter, and He has set a barrier and
a complete partition between them.
54. And it is He Who has created man from water, and has appointed for him
kindred by blood, and kindred by
marriage. And your Lord is Ever All-
Powerful to do what He will.

Well of course they do, they have to remain relevant somehow and
admitting they were wrong and science was actually right, yet again,
is the only way they can seem at the least not just flat out liars, the
funniest thing about it all is this type of thing will lead even more people
to finally break the bonds of religious oppression and admit that the church
doesn't know everything and in fact barely knows anything, if it were not
for science we would still believe the planet was flat and the sun
revolved around us, these people are just plain old con artist.

The hilarity behind this whole lets try to mesh the two ideas is really
getting wonky now, two ideas that simply do not mesh at all, one requires
you to search for the truth and the other requires you believe what they
say is true and not what can be proven as true, they seem to have a major
issue with honesty, but when you lie for a living i guess its part and partial.