Planned Parenthood endorses post-birth abortion

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by beezzer

 

If you want to deny rights to those who have no voice, then you are free to do so.

Do I wanted to deny the same rights as human beings being granted to fertilized eggs? Yes, because it's a stupid idea as they are not human beings. There's the short answer for you.

You and I are the result of "fertilized eggs".

Are we not human?

reply to post by tothetenthpower

You'd have to first show me a single case where a EMPLOYEE of planned parenthood made a decision in the place of a mother/father or doctor.

If they've never done that ( which to my knowledge they have not) then what does their opinion of appropriate procedures have to do with anything?

I find it hard to figure out, how their opinion, factors into a piece of legislation that would either prevent, or allow the death of a baby.

The truth is that it doesn't. She answered the question truthfully, because the only thing Planned Parenthood can do is either support the decisions made by doctors and parents, or not.

OK, now I have cooled off and your not telling me I don't have a right to think a certain way........whew

Here is where I am coming from Tenth, I am a big anti Eugenics person. So with that being said, maybe you can understand where I am coming from?

Your right in the fact that she did not say "yes she agreed or no she didn't agree"! She chose to stand in the abyss of ignorance. Which I must say, if I was in her shoes, and I chose to serve my masters to save my job and career OR taking a stand on what I believed was right and what I believed was wrong.....

She is much more than an employee for planned parenthood as well. I highly doubt a lowly employee would come in front of a state legislative committee for questioning.

Now! Not only do I look at the history of Eugenics, I also follow the future of legislation. I am referring that, as to your reference to the doctor/patient relationship. With that being said, has the Affordable Health Care Act not taken that relationship out of the hands of the doctor and patient?

reply to post by beezzer


I find it evil to outlaw a woman's choice.
Women have always, women to this day in ME countries and other countries that abortion are illegal in, have ways to take care of an unwanted pregnancy, modern medicine has a much safer way to do it. Outlawing abortion won't stop abortion, just criminalize women for deciding on whether they want to or can be a mother at that time as well as put the health of the woman at risk and if it fails could have a profound effect on the development. You're a doctor of some sort aren't you? You know the stages of pregnancy, most abortions are performed very early before there's even technically a fetus

post-birth abortion

My opinion on this is based on whether I consider them persons or not, the same as with conventional abortion. So when the brain is not developed enough (before 4-5th month), these foetii have no right to life, no matter if inside or outside the mother. After this time, killing them should be forbidden both inside and outside (unless it is done to save the mothers life).

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Do I wanted to deny the same rights as human beings being granted to fertilized eggs? Yes, because it's a stupid idea as they are not human beings. There's the short answer for you.

This is a thread about post abortion-ed living human beings.
If they came out alive it means they passed the threshold of fetal viability meaning they are individual entity´s who can survive on their own outside the uterus.
Stay on topic.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by beezzer

 

I find it evil to outlaw a woman's choice.
Women have always, women to this day in ME countries and other countries that abortion are illegal in, have ways to take care of an unwanted pregnancy, modern medicine has a much safer way to do it. Outlawing abortion won't stop abortion, just criminalize women for deciding on whether they want to or can be a mother at that time as well as put the health of the woman at risk and if it fails could have a profound effect on the development. You're a doctor of some sort aren't you? You know the stages of pregnancy, most abortions are performed very early before there's even technically a fetus

Point one; when a woman becomes pregnant, she shares her body with another. This other body has no voice, no rights, no say in what happens.
It's kind of like slavery.

The fate of the body within is at the whim of the mother.

Point two; outlawing abortion will not end abortion. True. Teaching the values of a human life, teaching morality, might.

Point three; we are talking about post-birth death and the total lack of value placed on a human life here.

GODS! I wish people would listen to people like me. I've seen the ugly, totally immoral debasement of human life in war.

The first time I aided in giving birth, was to a woman who fell down a flight of stairs because she was drunk. She didn't give a tinkers damn about her child. She was pissed because her last beer bottle broke. Her daughter was beautiful, though.

I wept.

You are a mother, how could you NOT hold your own and weep against the miracle?

reply to post by seeker1963

Your right, the OP has nothing to do with gun ownership!

Yes it doesn't. The OP has nothing to do with gun ownership, nobody in this thread stated that they oppose legal and responsible gun ownership.

Just so happens in this case that it is the woman who holds the cards on whether or not she has unprotected sex!

How does she "hold all the cards" again? Given the fact that she is the one that falls pregnant, she is the one that has to take the full bodily pain of pregnancy, she is the one that has to chase up maternity tests from the man trying to escape his responsibilities. Men do walk off from the responsibilities of pregnancy, often they do, but this doesn't matter to you does it?

In 2010, 26.8% of all custodial parents sought the government’s assistance collecting child support.
The Amount of Child Support Owed:

$35.1 billion dollars in child support was owed during the year 2009.

The average amount of child support due was $5,960 per year

60.9% of that money—an average of $3,630 per year—was received.

54.9% of custodial single mothers were awarded child support in 2010.

singleparents.about.com...

But you want to put women into a more disadvantaged position by forcing them to go through pregnancy regardless? No, this argument didn't fly 40 years ago and it doesn't fly now.

Big Government, doesn't have a damn thing to do with adults being responsible!

But you want big government to force them to be responsible according to your standards. hmm.

So are you saying a woman who is raped responsible for it happening to her?

No, this is what you're saying. You claim abortion is murder, that murder is wrong, but then in another breath you claim that you make an exception in the case of "rape", yet it still doesn't change the fact that by your definition they are committing murder. You're trying to draw your own lines when it suits your argument. To me, either you think a fertilized egg is a human being that should be granted full rights as that of a human being or you don't. Make up your mind.

reply to post by beezzer

Originally posted by beezzer
You and I are the result of "fertilized eggs".

Are we not human?

Are we human beings now? Yes. Were we human beings from the moment of conception, as fertilized eggs? No. I understand you personally disagree, and you're entitled to your personal opinions Beezer.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by beezzer

 

Originally posted by beezzer
You and I are the result of "fertilized eggs".

Are we not human?

Are we human beings now? Yes. Were we human beings from the moment of conception, as fertilized eggs? No. I understand you personally disagree, and you're entitled to your personal opinions Beezer.

Semantics.

Are we the people we were at the age of two?

No.

Are we the people we were at the age of 18?

No.

Human life is sacred. Or, at least it used to be.

reply to post by Exitt


Oh I am on topic, this thread is well within the abortion debate. If you don't want to debate with me, then don't debate with me. You have that choice.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Here ya go darling/dude!!!!!! The FACT that you made the statement comparing a woman who is RAPED is NOT different that a woman who willingly spreads her legs for a few minutes of pleasure,,,,,,is ENOUGH to make me look at you as a disgusting human being!!!!

If you think I am going to argue any more with you after making that comparison, you are badly mistaken!!!

SEX and RAPE are NOT to be compared in ANY WAY!

So argue your little Progressive heart away with anyone who wants to debate with you! You showed your true colors when you made that comparison!

I do not know very much about though babies develop or how complete the are at which trimester so now that I have explained that I am by no means well educated on the facts on this issue I have some questions.

It my understanding that after a certain trimester abortions will not be performed so if a fetus survives a botched abortion that is being done within the law wouldn’t the baby/fetus be at a horrible disadvantage developmentally if it were to survive?

I am imagining a baby missing limbs undeveloped brain lungs and internal organs. Am I incorrect about that?

What is the life expectancy of a baby born from a botched abortion done within the law and what is the quality of life that child could expect? Is there even a chance that the child wouldn’t be severely retarded or depend on some form of life support for the rest of its life?

What if the only thing the baby is capable of is breathing?
If someone knows the answer to these questions I would appreciate it. I may be completely wrong on my assumptions.

Anyway this song and video is what I imagine life to be like for a baby who survived such a thing.
This issue reminds me of the Metallica song and video ONE.

I can't remember anything
Can't tell if this is true or dream
Deep down inside I feel to scream
This terrible silence stops me

Now that the war is through with me
I'm waking up, I cannot see
That there is not much left of me
Nothing is real but pain now

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please God, wake me

Back in the womb it's much too real
In pumps life that I must feel
But can't look forward to reveal
Look to the time when I'll live

Fed through the tube that sticks in me
Just like a wartime novelty
Tied to machines that make me be
Cut this life off from me

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please God, wake me

Now the world is gone, I'm just one
Oh God help me
Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please God, help me

Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute horror
I cannot live
I cannot die
Trapped in myself
Body my holding cell

Landmine has taken my sight
Taken my speech
Taken my hearing
Taken my arms
Taken my legs
Taken my soul
Left me with life in hell

The video is far more powerful than the lyrics there is a bit more to it than just the lyrics. Most of you will probably remember the video but I imagine some here have never seen it.

I don’t know about the rest of you but that would be hellish nightmare of a life IMO. That video used to creep me out.
My biggest fear when went to combat in the military was something like that happening personally I would rather die.

reply to post by beezzer

Originally posted by beezzer
Human life is sacred.

Human life isn't sacred. Sperm contains human life and you don't see many people arguing about preserving their rights now do you? It's kind of silly. You know that a piece of hair contains human life as well? What is human life? Well human beings form the definition of "human life" but they aren't necessarily one in the same.

Personally I don't support abortions for my own personal morals believe it or not, but I don't believe there's any legitimate reason to grant fertilized eggs a human being other than to take away what should and must be a choice left up to the woman in question.

reply to post by seeker1963


Tell me, is "murder" justified in the case of rape and incest? Let me remind you that it was you who claimed abortion was a murderous act, so considering you made this little exception in the case of rape, let me know. Forgive me but I'm still a little perplexed about your position in all this.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Surfrat

 

I DO agree that they should attempt to save the life of a baby who lives through that horrific ordeal.

What? Why do that at all? They're trying to kill it. Doesn't make sense. You either want it dead or want it alive.

But, it's the woman's choice I guess. Just like it was my choice to skip out on the kid I made by accident. But I'm a dead beat dad who owes child support.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by beezzer

 

Originally posted by beezzer
Human life is sacred.

Human life isn't sacred. Sperm contains human life and you don't see many people arguing about preserving their rights now do you? It's kind of silly. You know that a piece of hair contains human life as well? What is human life? Well human beings form the definition of "human life" but they aren't necessarily one in the same.

Personally I don't support abortions for my own personal morals believe it or not, but I don't believe there's any legitimate reason to grant fertilized eggs a human being other than to take away what should and must be a choice left up to the woman in question.

Hate to correct you, but sperm is not human life. It is a haploid. It needs it's complement (egg) to create life.

Again

The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing
-Edmund Burke

If we stand back and do nothing, say nothing, then we are as guilty as those that commit these disgusting acts.

Coming back to the core argument of the OP, whether the planned parenthood representative endorsed post-birth abortions, this is a lie, she never endorsed it neither did the organization. Do I support the killing of those born from botched abortions, of course not. However I am yet to come across a case where a baby born from a botched abortion was killed for no legitimate reason, I am yet to hear of such a case. If there is a case where this was committed for no good reason, and the people, physicians, were not charged or held accountable, let me know, I'd like to read up on it.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by beezzer

 

Oh I love it alright. I love it because it just kills people like you to know that women have choices. You personally believe that the minute a women is pregnant, her rights ceases and she should then be controlled like some doll, but fortunately we've long moved on from that era. Thanks as well to technology it's getting easier for women to make those choices

That's a fairly typical response. It's a woman's RIGHT, by God, and blah blah blah. Heard it for years. That's the way it has been framed, but that is not the only way to look at it.

When a woman gets pregnant, she has essentially rented out a room for nine months. By her actions she let it happen. That doesn't mean she owns the tenant and it certainly does not mean she has the right to kill the tenant to get rid of it. By letting it happen in the first place she "signed" the lease, which she now wants to break. But it's not as if the tenant can find another room for nine months, is it?

The mistake in the reasoning here is the idea that a woman "owns" her body, therefore all decisions are hers. But it's not HER body we're talking about here. It belongs to someone else: the tenant with the nine month lease.

It's true that Planned Parenthood did not come out and say they endorsed "post abortion" murder. They clearly stated they felt that decision was between mother and doctor. In other words, they implicitly acknowledged that such a decision was possible. THAT'S the issue. They could not even be bothered to say killing a live person was wrong. It was simply lawyer-speak for skirting the issue and refusing to take any responsibility for it--just like Mom for her baby.

Libs are fond of accusing conservatives of lacking compassion, then they turn right around and endorse killing a million babies a year. That's completely hypocritical.

Originally posted by beezzer
Hate to correct you, but sperm is not human life. It is a haploid. It needs it's complement (egg) to create life.

And I hate to break to you, it does contain human life. It contains the building blocks to a potential future human being. Unless you are to argue that women don't need men to fall pregnant at all? I'm sure this isn't your argument here Beezer.

There is never a “dead” phase — life is continuous. Sperm are alive, eggs are alive; you could even make the argument that since two cells (gametes) enter, but only one cell (a zygote) leaves, fertilization ends a life. Not that I would make that particular claim myself, but it’s definitely true that life is more complicated than the simplistic ideologues of the anti-choice movement would make it.

scienceblogs.com...

You don't have to agree, but you are not entitled to your own facts.

If we stand back and do nothing, say nothing, then we are as guilty as those that commit these disgusting acts.

You may not like abortions, but there are woman who have legitimate reasons to choose this option. I'm sorry but the world isn't all gum drops and gummy bears Beezzer. You'd better spend your time supporting assistance programs for single mothers, young mothers, who choose pregnancy. Spending all day demonizing them, throwing around the murder label isn't changing anything. You think you're the first one to come up with these arguments in the last 40 years since Roe V Wade? You're more certainly not, and it hasn't gotten people like you anywhere.

Originally posted by schuyler
The mistake in the reasoning here is the idea that a woman "owns" her body, therefore all decisions are hers. But it's not HER body we're talking about here.

It is HER body we're talking about here whether you like it or not. She is still very much in control with it, nature has given her this ability and rightfully so. Women aren't slaves to their biology and you can't make them so, sorry. In the end the choice lies with her and it has always been this way. You don't have to LIKE it, you don't have to ACCEPT IT, but this is the way it has always been and this is the way it's going to continue with more technology on the way and more choices.

The days of bare foot and pregnant women are over schuyler. It's long gone, and good riddance.