The Minimum Wage in One Paragraph

Almost all full-time workers (99.4%) are earning more than the minimum wage, and almost all full-time hourly workers (98.3%) are earning more than the minimum wage. Most importantly, the fact that more than three out of four teenagers (77.2%), who are the least skilled and least educated group of workers, earned more than the minimum wage in 2011 would suggest the minimum wage is mostly an entry-level wage for beginning workers with no skills. The reality of the labor market is that even a large majority of previously unskilled teenage workers are earning more than the minimum wage as soon as they acquire minimal jobs skills and work habits, and can demonstrate their value to employers.

Linked article on subject

I found this very eye opening. 99.4% of full time workers already make more than the minimum wage. So who are all these evil business people paying slave wages? Who are these people struggling to raise a family on minimum wage? If more than 3 out of 4 teenagers have skills that are worth more than minimum wage why is it these adults can't gain the necessary skills to earn more than minimum wage? Could it be because they are priced out of learning skills on the job by the minimum wage laws?

If more than three-quarters of teenagers earn more than the minimum wage, then any hardworking adult certainly can, and it must be a false narrative that full-time workers “are stuck” in minimum wage jobs and trying to raise a family, but mired in a life of poverty. The real issue is that there are many unskilled workers who desperately need that first job that allows them to acquire the skills and experience that leads to higher wages as the teenage data demonstrate. But the minimum wage law prices many of those unskilled workers out of the labor market (especially minority populations), and they are denied the employment opportunities they desperately need (see cartoon above). The real tragedy isn’t that some full-time workers are initially earning $7.25 per hour and supposedly “living in poverty,” but that there are millions of unemployed Americans willing to work but are earning $0.00 per hour and living in poverty because of the minimum wage law.

Did anyone know that less than 2% of full-time hourly workers make the minimum wage? or less than 1% of all full time workers? I sure didn't. It looks like these figures come straight from the BLS

Here and from the FED reserve bank of St Louis Here


Does knowing this information change your opinion on these laws? Do you think having a large minimum wage could actually do more harm than good by creating a barrier for unskilled workers to learn higher wage skills?

ETA: Before somebody mentions it, yes, I realize this is more than one paragraph, the title of the thread comes from here
Tom Woods Blog where I was originally exposed to these statistics and the above linked article.

reply to post by sageofmonticello


Those numbers are fudged, becsuse they assume anuone making $7.35 an bour is above the minimum wage.

I can tell you from personal experience, and looking around for work, that most of the jobs in the country pay less than $10 an hour.

$10 an hour $7.25 an hour, it doesnt matter, as both are not even gonna cover your gas money, unless you have enough for a hybrid, or are lucky enough to live within walking distance of your job.

At $10 an hour , your lucky if your bringing home $8.50, take half that for gas, and now.....ya broke. And you didnt even spend anything yet besides refilling your tank. Now you still have $500 minimum a month for rent, $100 a month for electricity, a minikum of $150 a week for food..... if there is gonna be a minimum wage at all, it at least needs to be worth having.

Snf op, I disagree with the numbers you posted as I mentioned above, but still a very good idea to get folks talking about this, which is where solutions will be found, through dialog, and the sharing of ideas.

reply to post by sageofmonticello


What TPTB will never tell you, is that wages are driven by the market every bit as much as prices are. Any company that wants success absolutely has to hire the best people. A majority of the true minimum wage jobs are held by teenagers and seasonal workers. Your local Taco Bell will gives raises to workers that have proven themselves to keep them around... and if McDonald's offers them more money to work at their establishment? The market drives the wages. Wages drive prices. Increasing the minimum wage will only drive inflation higher.

100% of those making $7.36/hr or more are above minimum wage. 100% of those not working make less than minimum wage. Raw statistics doesn't make things easier. However, many making more than minimum wage make less than $9.00/hr.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

Those numbers are fudged, becsuse they assume anuone making $7.35 an bour is above the minimum wage.

They are not fudged these are the statistics from the BLS. Sure, maybe some people make a nickel more than minimum wage but unless you can go find a source saying that some percentage of people make just above minimum wage all you are doing is simply speculating.

I can tell you from personal experience, and looking around for work, that most of the jobs in the country pay less than $10 an hour.

So you have in fact looked over the entire country and come to the conclusion that the majority of jobs pay under $10 an hour. Sounds like more speculation based soley on your personal experience.

At $10 an hour , your lucky if your bringing home $8.50, take half that for gas, and now.....ya broke.

$10 an hour is $1600 a month. With 30% (a general tax rate as these things change on location) that is $1120 a month. If your are spending $1120 a month on gas I would get rid of the suburban. My wife has an SUV and has a 50 mile round trip to work each day, her gas cost around $400 a month give or take a few bucks.

now you still have $500 minimum a month for rent, $100 a month for electricity, a minikum of $150 a week for food..... if there is gonna be a minimum wage at all, it at least needs to be worth having.

Those numbers seem a little high to me. Taking a quick look in my area I found a 3 bedroom house in a decent neighborhood for $900 a month, split 3 ways (roommates) that is $300 a month. Two ways (husband and wife) that's $450 a month. I spend much less on food than $150 a week and I don't even hunt for bargains or use coupons. I'll give you the $100 a month electric bill but again split 2 ways or more with roommates that isn't much is it. Still a lot of money left.

Nobody is saying that being poor is fun and easy. The discussion I am trying to have is if the minimum wage itself creates a barrier for low skilled workers to actually gain the job skills to command a higher pay.

I appreciate the discussion and your reply, I hope you don't see my reply back as malicious, I just feel like speculation makes a bad argument and I feel like you are exaggerating a bit on the minimum cost of living. Sure it isn't easy to be poor (I am poor) but that is not what we are talking about.

reply to post by Ahabstar

However, many making more than minimum wage make less than $9.00/hr.

Proof please? Speculation makes a poor argument. Also, I am trying talk about if minimum wage laws create a barrier to unskilled workers learning higher wage skills. If all you have is speculation please don't bother. We can speculate back and forth at each other all day. I am not really interested in who is more creative, I am interested in the minimum wage law and it's possible negative effects.

What a crock.. I have known plenty of people who after working with companies for a year getting a 25 cent raise. 3 years with Burger King and they MIGHT bump your hourly pay up a whole dollar.

and that was more like 5 paragraphs..

reply to post by 1/2 Nephilim

and that was more like 5 paragraphs..

I can see you spent a lot of time going over my post with a fine tooth comb. I'm not gonna bother with somebody that doesn't have the time to actually read what I posted before responding.


Here, maybe actually read it this time pal www.abovetopsecret.com...

Before somebody mentions it, yes, I realize this is more than one paragraph, the title of the thread comes from here

Ah, heck with it, I'll respond. You are purely speculating. Can one person please base their argument off of a verifiable fact like I did in my OP.

Besides. This is not a thread about what burger king pays and their promotion program, this is a thread about if the minimum wage creates a barrier for unskilled, less than minimum wage skilled workers to gain higher wage skills on the job.

Does anybody want to speak to that, or is this just gonna be attack the facts with off topic speculation day?

i feel sorry for my single friends that have no roommates. i have a friend who is a machinist, decent pay. he is struggling and working check to check but he refuses to get a roommate. times are tough, i think he's making $16 an hour. lets say he takes home $2000 a month, after gas money, car insurance, $800 a month rent, groceries and bills he is living like a pauper. the real problem is that wages have not kept up w inflation and the obscene amount of profits that have been happening by most corporations.

we keep being told we are in a recession and that companies cant afford to pay more? all the while worker productivity is at an all time high.

materialism is also another reason people are so broke, we have so many more bills that our grandparents didn't have to worry about. cable, cell phones, designer clothes, credit cards, outrageous health insurance costs etc etc.

my grandfather was able to support my grandmother and 5 children working at a factory, own several homes and help his children buy homes. try doing that now.

what happened america?

If so few people earn the mimimum wage then there's no real reason not to raise it - it won't destroy the economy or put people out of work - problem solved!

So if this is true there will not be any repercussions if they do raise minimum wage. As far as inflation goes a 20% hike for the bottom one percent of workers would at most make prices go up by .2%. That's point two percent. Figuring in that those 1% only bring in about .25% of total wages we are actually looking at inflation of .05%. So your loaf of bread that costs $2 will now costs $2.01 instead.

-Also need to add than many of these "minimum wage jobs:" no longer work people "FULL TIME"- most are cutting back to approx 29 hours per week . So your stats are for "FULL TIME" and the reality is that most people at the bottom are not working that much.

reply to post by sligtlyskeptical


Your missing the point. Here it is:

The minimum wage is irrelevant to almost everyone(that point you got), so increasing it isn't a serious answer to people with low incomes, but it is harmful to people trying to break into the job market in the first place whom currently don't have any income and a lack of skills that may not be worth the minimum wage to an employer.

That is what I am trying to discuss here.

You realize that the last large jump in minimum wage was in July 2008, nothing bad financially or economically happened that year going into 2009 and still continuing today did it?

Originally posted by DarKPenguiN
-Also need to add than many of these "minimum wage jobs:" no longer work people "FULL TIME"- most are cutting back to approx 29 hours per week . So your stats are for "FULL TIME" and the reality is that most people at the bottom are not working that much.

I hear what you are saying and I understand that the statistics can be read different ways. Your reply is all pure speculation though. Do you have a reply that can verify your speculation? I have already mentioned several times that this is thread dealing with facts, not speculation. I appreciate your reply and I am not trying to be mean to people but I ask that you back it up with SOMETHING verifiable. Please.

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
If so few people earn the mimimum wage then there's no real reason not to raise it - it won't destroy the economy or put people out of work - problem solved!

Your missing the point.

I interpret the data this way: the minimum wage is irrelevant to almost everyone, so increasing it isn't a serious answer to people with low incomes. But it is harmful to people trying to break into the job market in the first place who don't possess the skills necessary to command a higher wage.

Originally posted by sageofmonticello
reply to post by sligtlyskeptical

 

Your missing the point. Here it is:

The minimum wage is irrelevant to almost everyone(that point you got), so increasing it isn't a serious answer to people with low incomes, but it is harmful to people trying to break into the job market in the first place whom currently don't have any income.

edit on 27-2-2013 by sageofmonticello because: (no reason given)

If the government truly wants to help the impoverished worker, cut taxes. What is $9.00/hour after taxes? Social Security taxes? Medicare taxes? Unemployment taxes under the guise of "unemployment insurance"? State taxes? Local taxes?

Even military wages are taxed, which are paid by taxes. Taxing tax dollars. Taxing those taxes. Where does it end?

You can raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour, then tax it down to $9 an hour... and say "yes, U.S workers now make insane amounts of money", but the end result is the same...

Originally posted by sageofmonticello

Originally posted by DarKPenguiN
-Also need to add than many of these "minimum wage jobs:" no longer work people "FULL TIME"- most are cutting back to approx 29 hours per week . So your stats are for "FULL TIME" and the reality is that most people at the bottom are not working that much.

I hear what you are saying and I understand that the statistics can be read different ways. Your reply is all pure speculation though. Do you have a reply that can verify your speculation? I have already mentioned several times that this is thread dealing with facts, not speculation. I appreciate your reply and I am not trying to be mean to people but I ask that you back it up with SOMETHING verifiable. Please.

Lol, no- I do not have (nor am I going to hunt down) statistics. I am basing this on what I am seeing in my home community and have no clue what is going on nationwide... I also live in Michigan where our manufacturing has been decimated.

-That said, I was more or less making the point about statistics being skewed.

If 10 people on my street made $100,000/year last year and this year 9 of those people lost their jobs but the remaining worker got a new job making $1,100,000 - Statistically my "street" is doing 10% better than last year. Statistics are generally easy to make any point at all when the data is scrutinized.

-Personally I think raising the minimum wage is STUPID right now and will do more harm than good. But I think it needs raised if/when we have an actual recovery- Now is NOT the time. But that is my opinion.

reply to post by DarKPenguiN


Well, your are honest, I can appreciate that. I can understand people having opinions without having facts basing it on their personal experience and whatnot.

The thing is though, if one is going to have an opinion, and one is going to make that opinion public one should be expected to back up that opinion with something that can be verified. We can give each other our opinions back and forth all day and that could be fun but we are only spinning our wheels in the mud, not actually getting anywhere.

How valuable is an opinion that isn't based on anything that can be verified? Just some general thoughts, not necessarily for you but for anyone reading this.

I don't expect anyone to go and hunt down facts on my command, but I would expect me to have a reason for my opinion that can be verified and I am simply asking that of others who say my opinion is bunk. Seeing how I did go through the trouble to actually bring some facts to the discussion... I don't think it is asking to much to have a verifiable basis for someones counter argument, though I understand if people simply don't have the interest but than I have to wonder why they posted in the first place. I mean what is the point?

I mean how is one to ever learn anything new if they never challenge their opinion with facts that may say the opposite? Or if they never look to qualify their opinion with something that can be verified?

The people in this article are interpreting these statistics to make the situation not as dire as it seems. What a surprise... All these findings show is that the majority of full time Americans aren't making EXACTLY the minimum wage. It says nothing about people making slightly more than minimum wage or part time employees. In fact you really can't draw many conclusions at all from this data besides obviously biased ones.

ETA: If you really wanted to make a point, how about posting some statistics for part time workers or wages between min wage and say $10?