Honest question about god!

Originally posted by Leveller

No it doesn't. Who knows why God created man? He may have reasons that are beyond our comprehension.
The problem is that you are making the classic mistake of giving God human characteristics and human motives.

But in fact, I would think the opposite would apply in reference to your above statement. If God wanted man for no purpose other than to serve Him, he wouldn't have given him Freewill would He? He wouldn't have given man a choice to be able to turn away from Him.

You're wrong on all accounts You are in here writing in full support of what you have been told in The Bible about free will and Jesus, because that is what the book states, yet you now imply that The Bible has not told you why God created man. Have you read the scriptures?

I have also addressed the silliness of the notion as to why the free will is nonsense.

Finally, I make no mistake sorry. the words are: "Let us make man in our image " Not in the image of Alpha Centaurians, or as an experiment and see what we come up with, or as imagine I have in mind. Where in any part of The Bible has an angel been described as not looking human? Don't you think if that was the case, such a description would be there at least once?

No it doesn't. Who knows why God created man? He may have reasons that are beyond our comprehension.
The problem is that you are making the classic mistake of giving God human characteristics and human motives.

But in fact, I would think the opposite would apply in reference to your above statement. If God wanted man for no purpose other than to serve Him, he wouldn't have given him Freewill would He? He wouldn't have given man a choice to be able to turn away from Him.

Motivation for creating the "UNIVERSE" is a paradox on it's own. I've concluded that the creation was a spontaneous accord: a categorical imperative of non-tuistism -- driven neither be egoism nor altruism --, but through no motivation whatsoever.

All the anthromorphic personifactions we adhere to God are human constraints; constraints God is above and beyond...


Free will falls to it's knees under the shadow of determinism and causation, in fact, free will would have been a cause of a necessitated event; but, justly, free will and determinism can be copulated together to produce, as Thomas Hobbes coined it, Compatibilism: Free will and Determinism do not clash, but are in-cognito, or so to speak.

Example,

A necessitated precedent implores me to react; Death has come to my ill wife, of cancer, not even God could heal, in the heat of emotional unresolve, i conclude that the town mayor is at fault and must be justly laid to rest in light of vengence of my loving wife now passed. Now, as one assumes, sweet vengence partakes patient and carefull timing, utter cunning, and devine providence. 3 days pass, and on the night of the full moon, i slash the throat of the Mayor and declare my wife avenged.

As we see with the scenerio above, I had time and "free will" to think things through, and, as we see above, these events were all caused by a prior precedent: the death of my wife. Free will, would simply implore good judgement and right action, but, determism was the visercal cause of the chain of events.

That may not make sense, but it's also late here....

That's my excuse !

1) Why would someone have to die for anyone else's' sins? This makes no sense what so ever. How does someone dying make it any easier for someone to be forgiven?
2) Why did an omnipotent god need an animal killed, sacrificed to him? Did it have anything to do with the energy released from this animal at the time of it's death? That something needed and used (feed of off) that energy at certain times. It makes no sense that an omnipotent, almighty god would need something killed for it!

LadyV,

Christianity has created a bastion of circular logic around themselves: We know God exists becuase the Bible says so, we know the Bible is right becuase God wrote it, we know God wrote it becuase the Bible says so.

A sort of necessitated response when one cannot realize the hubris of scriptures written thousands of years passed.

Ask these Christians to give you a praxeological discourse on SIN..

Deep



[edit on 2-11-2004 by ZeroDeep]

Has it never crossed your mind that we sinned the very same sin Lucifer was guilty of, yet we were not automatically condemned to Hell? Satan and his angelic followers will pay their own debt, but God had a plan for us, so that if we go to Him as our Father, we needn�t die. The debt was made and it had to be paid. The blood of the animals was symbolic of the blood of the Son. You continue to be more concerned about the deaths of the animals than the death of the totally innocent Son of God, Who died for your sins so that you would not have to pay the wages of sin, but actually have eternal life. It seems to me that there is a problem, but it isn�t with the expectations of the Creator of the Universe but in the heart of a prideful and rebellious creation.

And.....

Of the multitudes of flaws in this statement, one stuck out like a sore thumb: Jesus Christ, quite simply and to be blatant, did not "DIE", nor "LIVE" to begin with, but, these innocent animals are alive and falling prey to the occult nature of these "so-called" GODLY faiths...

Humans are not born of Sin;sin is something we may commite during our lives, and even at that, sin is a word i have a major quandry with: it is simply relative.

Deep

Originally posted by LadyV

Originally posted by kinglizard

I think it had less to do with God needing the animals soul and more to do with showing obedience to the word of God, an act of faith and sacrifice. Animals were like money, they had a lot of worth and an obedient follower would need to surrender something he valued to God to show his compliance and prove his faith.

That's a good reasoning...but an omnipotent god shouldn't need something like this don't ya think?

Well thats true ... but you don't need someone to say Thanks, or Thank You right? but its just nice.. and common courtesy for someone who has done something nice right? Well you could think of it like that. Its not necessary but it is nice to know that someone notices you.

If he made us in his likeness, then why wouldn't he like some attention too?
Start thinking of God as a Person, not some magnificent omnipotent entity
Imagine all the death and horrible things he has to see us do...
How would you feel?... and not on some TV screen, but he sees it up close, detail, thoughts and all, all of the disgusting aspects, and he is let to contemplate our decisions. We are truly a greedy people, we give such thanks to our Birth parents but NO thanks at all to the person who put us all here. Regardless of who this person/entity is at all, Start swapping shoes.

I'm still having trouble understanding how slaughtering a lamb every time you sleep with the neighbor's wife somehow balances your cosmic checkbook.

I have seen various rationales explained, but still cannot make sense of any of them.

Slaughter and blood sacrifice are the sorts of things associated with demons -- those who demand the subjugation of others. It is a sign of darkness, not divinity. No spirit of light I have ever encountered would demand such things.

A god which substitutes tokens of repentance, especially the slaughter of living creatures, in place of repentance itself is not a god of justice.

Any being which requires my worship is unworthy of it.


[edit on 11/2/2004 by Majic]

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween


You're wrong on all accounts You are in here writing in full support of what you have been told in The Bible about free will and Jesus, because that is what the book states, yet you now imply that The Bible has not told you why God created man. Have you read the scriptures?

I have also addressed the silliness of the notion as to why the free will is nonsense.

Finally, I make no mistake sorry. the words are: "Let us make man in our image " Not in the image of Alpha Centaurians, or as an experiment and see what we come up with, or as imagine I have in mind. Where in any part of The Bible has an angel been described as not looking human? Don't you think if that was the case, such a description would be there at least once?

Sigh.

1) Yes I have read the Bible many times.
2) No, I'm not a "Christian", so I don't follow a literal translation of the Bible.

And God making man in His own image? I don't think that the passage refers to the creation of the physical.

Originally posted by Kidfinger
The Bible has so many ideosyncracies that its not even funny.

Could you name a few? As for the one that you listed that WAS the CATHOLIC church. That church may be the oldest one, but it was distorted through out the ages, it became corrupt.

I posted this in another post but think its relevant here.
How do Christians reconcile factual contradictions in the bible there are many: Contradictions in the Bible Check out this website to read the full list...

Here are a select few:

MT 28:2 An angel arrived during an earthquake, rolled back the stone, then sat on it (outside the tomb).
MK 16:5 No earthquake, only one young man sitting inside the tomb.
LK 24:2-4 No earthquake. Two men suddenly appear standing inside the tomb.
JN 20:12 No earthquake. Two angels are sitting inside the tomb.

MT 28:8 The visitors ran to tell the disciples.
MK 16:8 They said nothing to anyone.
LK 24:9 They told the eleven and all the rest.
JN 20:10-11 The disciples returned home. Mary remained outside, weeping.

MT 28:8-9 Jesus' first Resurrection appearance was fairly near the tomb.
LK 24:13-15 It was in the vicinity of Emmaus (seven miles from Jerusalem).
JN 20:13-14 It was right at the tomb.

MT 28:9 On his first appearance to them, Jesus lets Mary Magdalene and the other Mary hold him by his feet.
JN 20:17 On his first appearance to Mary, Jesus forbids her to touch him since he has not yet ascended to the Father.
JN 20:27 A week later, although he has not yet ascended to the Father, Jesus tells Thomas to touch him.

MT 28:7-10, MT 28:16 Although some doubted, the initial reaction of those that heard the story was one of belief since they followed the revealed instructions.
MK 16:11, LK 24:11 The initial reaction was one of disbelief. All doubted.

MT 28:1-18 The order of Resurrection appearances was: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, then the eleven.
MK 16:9-14 It was Mary Magdalene, then two others, then the eleven.
LK 24:15-36 It was two, then Simon (Peter?), then the eleven.
JN 20:14 - 21:1 It was Mary Magdalene, then the disciples without Thomas, then the disciples with Thomas, then the eleven disciples again.
1CO 15:5-8 It was Cephas (Peter?), then the "twelve" (which twelve, Judas was dead?), then 500+ brethren (although AC 1:15 says there were only about 120), then James, then all the Apostles, then Paul.

The list goes on, and this is in the four approved versions of the gospels, WE haven't even touched on the other eighty versions that were disregarded for no other reason than they told a version of the truth that didnt fit in with the political realities of the day.

Originally posted by Leveller
And God making man in His own image? I don't think that the passage refers to the creation of the physical.

I see. Once more, using that twisted type of logic to make it believe what you will. You take it upon yourself to define your reason at why God gave man free will, because that definition suits you, despite it not being clarified in the Bible:

If God wanted man for no purpose other than to serve Him, he wouldn't have given him Freewill would He? He wouldn't have given man a choice to be able to turn away from Him.

And when given a clarification of something that is, you decide to change that to suit your definition also. I believe I already addressed this selective diagnosis process of excuses those who preach on faith alone go by.

I want to be very precise, so I have copied your questions.

1) Why would someone have to die for anyone else's' sins? This makes no sense what so ever. How does someone dying make it any easier for someone to be forgiven?

This question is like taking a cup of water out of the middle of a stream, and wondering why it has pebbles in it. Why? Because death is a human experience that needs to have meaning and value attributed to it. It is the finale of a life. And so "sacrifice" was a "middle lesson" that needed to be acted out by a MORTAL being [since Cosmic personalities don't die].

Notice, the life and death of "Jesus" was not the first time that "God"-- [whose name alone is YHVH, pronounced "Yahweh" or "Yeewah"] --
has dealt with mankind in our history. We have in the so-called "Scriptures" a history of five Covenants--lessons--that YHVH proceeded to carry out, to articulate experience in a Way that makes sense to Him and will also make sense to us humans.

Your parents taught you to talk. They taught you manners. They sent you to school to have experiences with reading and writing.

God likewise gives and allows us--His human animal/spirit incarnates--to have experiences that articulate values HE promotes because the long-term effects work out well in time. HE is not merely impressed with strength and courage. Predators are strong and fearless. He also is impressed with pacific values of non-predators; and it is very difficult to teach humans to act civilized, patient, caring and tolerant in a world where predation yields great physical advantages.

The first Covenant--stewardship--was with Adam and his wife. The second Covenant was with Noah and his family--that of community--the caring for the weak and vulnerable by the strong INSTEAD of the common practice of predation on the weak that was in vogue at that time.

The third Covenant with Abram and Sarai--literacy--occurred because Abraham [note name change] could not INHERIT THE LAND unless he KNEW who his progeny WAS. So he had to write everything down, from then forward. His practice became the foundation for the Jews later.

The fourth Covenant--Law--took Abraham's practice of writing and put it to work developing cause-and-effect social norms that resulted in health, longevity and strong family ties. But by the time the Essenes, John the Baptist and Jesus [having a spirit of a Cosmic personality] all got here, the Jewish nation had deteriorated due to their wandering off into Talmud Land and making a mockery of YHVH's Law by practices of elitism and usury.

The natural outcome of elitism and usury is that one must learn to give things UP--willingly. Therefore, Jesus' act of sacrifice was the VERY MOST appropriate Lesson for the whole of Mankind to witness at that moment in time.

Does that answer your first question?

2) Why did an omnipotent god need an animal killed, sacrificed to him? Did it have anything to do with the energy released from this animal at the time of it's death? That something needed and used (feed of off) that energy at certain times. It makes no sense that an omnipotent, almighty god would need something killed for it!

Again, we are in the middle of the stream of time and its lessons about the VALUE of LIFE itself.

The Jewish nation needed to eat meat because they were wanderers, right? Yes. And they were shepherds who had flocks and herds and they needed to kill and distribute the meat so that it would not spoil before the people got to eat it.

As you know, the people in Israel participated in Temple sacrifices by EATING inspected, carefully slaughtered, cleanly prepared and sufficiently cooked MEAT. The Tabernacle was a mobile public slaughterhouse that also performed the ritual that all Native Americans perform when they sacrifice a life for strengthening themselves. They prayed over the death of the animal and gave thanks for the strength that its meat and byproducts provided for the community.

What? You think God was going to eat that meat? No. The people did. And so they would tend to bring animals to the Tabernacle and kill cleanly, the whole Shabbos program was centered around Gratitude and establishing a history of being clean, being careful, being generous and learning to be kind. If today our society still utilized the practices of the Jewish Law in handling beef, there would be NO MAD COW DISEASE.

But, no, "profit" is now more important than "prophet."

Remember, they had been slaves. They didn't know anything about kindness or public health or hygiene or ethical business relations or ethical family relations. The people that lived in the areas in which they were settling were known for infanticide by fire. God was teaching these people how to be civilized in an area where farmers were very cruel.

Israelites never killed their own children. As corrupted as they might have become, they never stooped down to that level, to harm their own families. By being "children of God," they learned the VALUE of "Family." This is a value which is now being lost and trampled by the NWO, in order to discourage the birth of more children and in order to guarantee their having control over a globalist and compliant world population.

And that's why they killed animals THAT WAY--to do it "right." And they still do.

Does this answer your second question?





[edit on 2-11-2004 by Emily_Cragg]

I dont want to get any body really mad but...


If this world is filled with pain and joy, a give and take...

Heaven is filled with pure joy, how is leaving a world with pain and joy to a world of pure joy a sacrifice?

If you say it is, then why is it when people die they say, "He is in a better place now." Wouldn't he/she be a sacrifice also.

Originally posted by LadyV
I have two questions...I have asked them before, here and other places. The first one I always get the same lame answer and bible verse quoted which does/explains nothing! The second one is always skipped over and not mentioned at all!

1) Why would someone have to die for anyone else's' sins? This makes no sense what so ever. How does someone dying make it any easier for someone to be forgiven?
2) Why did an omnipotent god need an animal killed, sacrificed to him? Did it have anything to do with the energy released from this animal at the time of it's death? That something needed and used (feed of off) that energy at certain times. It makes no sense that an omnipotent, almighty god would need something killed for it!

EDIT: to correct spelling goofs


[edit on 10/31/2004 by LadyV]

Well to tell you the honest truth God doesn�t ask for you to sacrifice animals or for people to die for your sins. These were created by man. We want to understand the unknown but our way of thinking prevents us from doing so. God exist within all he/she/it is the sprit. all one has to do is listen. You can read all the books you want but the truest way to gain knowledge is through experience. That is why we are on this earth. It is to learn more about who we are. Life is a creative process. If you live by others rules and regulations you are limiting your creative process.

The truth of the matter is that we really don't know anything about the nature of God. This is a wonderful thing because it allows each person to either develop there own relationship, believe what others say or just not believe at all.

That's only wonderful if a person consents to the outcome of the path he or she chooses.

Refusing to consent to be law-abiding has an outcome. Refusing to forgive others their trespasses has a cosmic outcome. Refusing to measure one's words and operate from language that is congruent with one's actions is also a rebellion that has an outcome. Refusing to share resources with the vulnerable and the crushed, has an outcome. Refusing to learn Cosmic history and the responsibilities that come with knowledge has a cosmic outcome.

Anyone can choose to be as non-spiritual and as ignorant as they wish. However, their behavior will have outcomes in the Cosmic dimension they may not want to consent to.

Please notice, every Covenant of God in Scripture is accompanied by a request for Consent.

Consent to nothing, your outcome is not going to be very positive. Refuse to make any commitments at all to others, and your outcome is not going to be very very positive. The Universe doesn't prosper selfishness.

But, it's your choice, as you say.

[edit on 2-11-2004 by Emily_Cragg]

[edit on 2-11-2004 by Emily_Cragg]

Originally posted by LadyV
I have two questions...I have asked them before, here and other places. The first one I always get the same lame answer and bible verse quoted which does/explains nothing! The second one is always skipped over and not mentioned at all!

1) Why would someone have to die for anyone else's' sins? This makes no sense what so ever. How does someone dying make it any easier for someone to be forgiven?
2) Why did an omnipotent god need an animal killed, sacrificed to him? Did it have anything to do with the energy released from this animal at the time of it's death? That something needed and used (feed of off) that energy at certain times. It makes no sense that an omnipotent, almighty god would need something killed for it!

EDIT: to correct spelling goofs


[edit on 10/31/2004 by LadyV]

LadyV I don't know if any of the answers given before have adequately answered your second question. To my knowledge the Sacrificial death (Jesus or animals) where meant to show humans the consequences of sin, Death. So if a human sins, something (a living animal) would need to die in order for them to cleanse that sin (at the time, Jesus was the last sacrifice). I believe that God was hoping that humans would wake up to that and realize that if they continue to sin the result would mean their death. So God did not �Need� the sacrifice, it was merely a representation of the result of sin.

The Urantia Book teaches that animal and human sacrifice are not demanded by the all-loving Universal Father and are remnants of our evolutionary religious past, which is the result of superstition and the god-seeking nature of human beings. Revelatory religion, like that taught by Jesus and The Urantia Book, denounce such teachings and practices.

I highly recommend The Urantia Book to you, as it contains some very good answers to the kinds of questions regarding religion that plague the minds of so many. Papers 99, 100, 101, 102, 103 do a very good job of addressing religious matters in human existence, as do many other papers in Part III, "The History of Urantia."

I am especially fond of this section of Paper 100 that describes the life of Jesus of Nazereth as "The Acme of Religious Living." If we could all learn to live life in the way, the world would be heaven, or "settled in light and life", as The Urantia Book calls it.


[edit on 04/11/2 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by DaTruth

Originally posted by LadyV
I have two questions...I have asked them before, here and other places. The first one I always get the same lame answer and bible verse quoted which does/explains nothing! The second one is always skipped over and not mentioned at all!

1) Why would someone have to die for anyone else's' sins? This makes no sense what so ever. How does someone dying make it any easier for someone to be forgiven?
2) Why did an omnipotent god need an animal killed, sacrificed to him? Did it have anything to do with the energy released from this animal at the time of it's death? That something needed and used (feed of off) that energy at certain times. It makes no sense that an omnipotent, almighty god would need something killed for it!

EDIT: to correct spelling goofs


[edit on 10/31/2004 by LadyV]

Well to tell you the honest truth God doesn�t ask for you to sacrifice animals or for people to die for your sins. These were created by man. We want to understand the unknown but our way of thinking prevents us from doing so. God exist within all he/she/it is the sprit. all one has to do is listen. You can read all the books you want but the truest way to gain knowledge is through experience. That is why we are on this earth. It is to learn more about who we are. Life is a creative process. If you live by others rules and regulations you are limiting your creative process.

The truth of the matter is that we really don't know anything about the nature of God. This is a wonderful thing because it allows each person to either develop there own relationship, believe what others say or just not believe at all.

This is very nicely put. Short and simple. I have to agree w/ this, and also w/ what Majic said. I will worship none that asks for a sacrifice or requires some primitive form of worship.

I do believe that there are reasons why we don't know too much on the existence of God, and part of that being because of our own race denying us access to our spiritual history other than what is written in various "bibles". The other reasons are what is quoted from DaTruth - We are FREE to decide who or what we want to believe in and that IS wonderful.

Emily....How do we NOT consent to the outcome of our CHOSEN path. There is a right and a wrong way, and a way to half*ss everything. Society rules aside, each persons version of right and wrong has variants according to their beliefs. (Not to be confused w/ - "I don't believe the stove is going to burn me if I touch it while its on.") While one religion says this is the way it is, another says that is the way it isn't.

Then there are those like LadyV and I, searching through the doctrines of these various religions to find something that fits. I know that all too well, and after reading most of interest, I still couldn't find one that fit ME. This is where freewill is the most rewarding (although a little confusing to some, obviously). When you are finished searching outward, begin the search inward. What fits? Nothing you've read about? There's a reason for that!

So, LadyV, you may not be all that aware of what you believe, but it IS w/in. I read your other thread on freewill and was a little amazed that you don't see that you are exercising it right now. If your God did not want you to question things, you simply wouldn't. Especially in this area. If you were not meant to find your OWN concept of a power that is greater than you, then there would be no such thing as freewill. The questions you ask are VITAL to your spiritual experience in this life.

In closing...."If the shoe don't fit.................."

Listen. Im a gnostic. I dont believe the way most christians do. The sins of the world were transfered onto him. It wasnt some little symbolic christian thing. it was very pagan in origin. To a gnostic, animals dont have souls. Nothing on earth is real. It is all a lie. Similar to buddhism, but much more extreme. Think of it as the matrix.

Somebody I never met before just emailed me and said he wants to give me a Urantia book and the 50mb file of it.

He's driving 100 miles to bring it to me.

I had two other copies but I gave them away to people, so they could read it. I've ploughed through 1.5 times.

It's a book that incarnate angels seem to attach to, a lot.

Thanks for bringing it up here.

Originally posted by LadyV
I have two questions...I have asked them before, here and other places. The first one I always get the same lame answer and bible verse quoted which does/explains nothing! The second one is always skipped over and not mentioned at all!

I know I'm not your favorite person on this subject , but please humor me.
I wish to answer.......Be kind and dont rewind me.....okay.

1) Why would someone have to die for anyone else's' sins? This makes no sense what so ever. How does someone dying make it any easier for someone to be forgiven?

The use of Jesus was an offering by God to us, It showed love for his creations, However that is the one you refered to above.


Now a simpler alternative reason is to replace an inpersonal sacrifice of a virgin lamb with an offering more substaintual and with more love attached in both giving the sacrifice and recieving it ,,,,,,hence the lamb references to Jesus.

2) Why did an omnipotent god need an animal killed, sacrificed to him? Did it have anything to do with the energy released from this animal at the time of it's death? That something needed and used (feed of off) that energy at certain times. It makes no sense that an omnipotent, almighty god would need something killed for it!

Again it was a physical mannor that man could under stand both in consequence IE the death and blood shed for our wrong doing....Its more for mans benefit.....A conception of Gods would and is to complex, hence the many physical references , like assending to heaven John in a vision was told to perform physical deeds , they were to help him understand the information being expressed,,,,,IE taking the book from the hand and being told to eat it up and it would be sweet as honey and bitter in the stomach, it was a physical manifestation of what I would have to double check on to be sure, but I think it was taking in God and faith was sweet to the mouth, but the darker sides shall show an agression for your acceptance of God hence the bitter reference where in the devil shall attack you with tests of faith and torture like activities to strain your faith in order to break the bond.......But like I said I would have to double check that part.


I hope I didnt make myself a target again , but it was worth it to me to discuss God.




[edit on 2/11/2004 by drbryankkruta]

The answer of your questions is very simple those belief's are human.