Violent thought? You get reported.

usnews.nbcnews.com...

But as lawmakers rush to restrict that access in the wake of recent mass shootings, mental health experts warn of unintended consequences: from gun owners avoiding mental health treatment to therapists feeling compelled to report every patient who expresses a violent thought.

“Many patients express some idea of harm to other people, everything from, ‘I wish I could rip my boss limb from limb,’ to, ‘I have a gun and want to blow that guy away,’” said Paul Applebaum, director of the Division of Law, Ethics, and Psychiatry at Columbia University.

Therapists usually interpret this sort of talk as part of the treatment process, experts say. But under a new law in New York, one of the strongest to be passed to date, therapists may feel compelled to report every instance of violent talk, lest they face legal consequences if something happens. And some say ordinary patients may wind up suffering the most.

“There’s one group of people who are gun owners who may reasonably or unreasonably think, ‘I’m not going anywhere near a mental health person, because if they misinterpret something I say as an indication I’m going to hurt myself or someone else, they’re going to report me and take away my guns,’” Applebaum said.

I really did not want to add to the slew of gun debate threads but this is more important to me due to the implications for those who need mental health. I mean for goodness sake who hasn't said "I could just strangle that woman!!" at one point in your life? Be careful who you speak to.

reply to post by ValentineWiggin


If you feel the need to express your desire to "blow away" your boss with a gun, personally, I think voicing that around anyone is retarded, but maybe avoid mentioning your murderous intentions around someone legally obligated to report you?

I mean... do you joke about bombing an airplane while standing in the security line?

Of course you don't. I think it is worth to however point out the potential for abuse...and scare-mongering towards the therapists to record anything that might be considered violent such as "Oh I could just kill her!" because someone wore your dress to prom, you know what I mean? They don't want to lose their jobs.

The unintended consequences of a policy like that would be enormous. Broke up with your boyfriend? Got his passwords for Facebook? Sucks to be him. Not to mention the fact that it would push the public service departments way past their limits, which would cost more money we don't have.

As we've seen with the brilliance of zero-tolerance policies and the TSA, anything that any normal human being would take as just blowing off steam or sarcasm...well, it will start being taken literally, seriously, and there are a lot of people that may find themselves in the nuthatch or in prison as terrorists.

Originally posted by jimmiec
The unintended consequences of a policy like that would be enormous. Broke up with your boyfriend? Got his passwords for Facebook? Sucks to be him. Not to mention the fact that it would push the public service departments way past their limits, which would cost more money we don't have.

I had not even THOUGHT that far yet, wow what a great point! Man now my mind is going 100 mph...

Well I can't think of better "Thought Police" than therapists.

reply to post by ValentineWiggin

Of course you don't. I think it is worth to however point out the potential for abuse...and scare-mongering towards the therapists to record anything that might be considered violent such as "Oh I could just kill her!" because someone wore your dress to prom, you know what I mean? They don't want to lose their jobs.

Oh trust me, I get that. Most people tend to be able to pick up on sarcasm and separate that from actual death threats, I'd like to think the people required to report this would undergo training towards that skill, but I wouldn't expect it at all.

Anything can be abused.

And the new thread title isn't really appropriate, you can have all the violent thoughts you want in the world. It's up to you not to voice them around someone who would potentially take them seriously.

For example... One of my cats is an a-hole. She's a complete a-hole. I love her, but I'm constantly threatening to punch her in the balls (which is funny for two reasons). Now, taken out of context, someone hears me say "I'm gonna punch you in the balls" and to them, that's a potentially violent threat.

It's silly yes, but the fact remains, if you are dumb enough to threaten someone, joking or not, infront of someone tasked with reporting that type of behavior, you are an idiot, and yeah, if you can't think that far ahead with something as simple as a death threat, I'm not entirely sure you'd be a responsible gun owner.

Just curious -- what's your solution for the Adam Lanza's, the Jared Loughner's, the James Holmes' of our society? Just keep doing what we're doing - which is nothing? I pray that none of us ever has to face the horror of losing our child to a crazy person that got hold of a gun.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by ValentineWiggin

 

If you feel the need to express your desire to "blow away" your boss with a gun, personally, I think voicing that around anyone is retarded, but maybe avoid mentioning your murderous intentions around someone legally obligated to report you?

I mean... do you joke about bombing an airplane while standing in the security line?

The comparison between a private therapy session and an airport security line is absurd. The contexts are completely different.

As was stated, allowing a patient to express frustration or even anger can be and often is necessary for progress to occur. Not to mention that in a therapy setting patients must feel safe and comfortable with their therapist. Common sense needs to be allowed (and is dismayingly so often already lacking in the mental health profession), and with this law compelling mental health professionals to potentially report any violent sentiment this is a potential disaster. There is potential slippery slope aspect to this that is horrifying. What a draconian, ridiculous law.

reply to post by jimmiec

The unintended consequences of a policy like that would be enormous. Broke up with your boyfriend? Got his passwords for Facebook? Sucks to be him.

meh.

Firstly, facebook is already monitoring your feeds, comments, and messages as well as chats, and reports criminal behavior to the appropriate authorities. Google that if you wish, it's a fact.

Secondly, it's quite simple to have facebook verify the access logs if a threat is made under your account by someone other than you. (who gives their password to anyone? idiots who make jokes about bombs at the airport i guess)

As well, I'm not sure that your mental health professional would be browsing your facebook posts.......

This is talking about intent to harm being related to the person, not some esoteric facebook comment, which can already get you in hot water BEFORE this was even dreamed up.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by ValentineWiggin

 

Of course you don't. I think it is worth to however point out the potential for abuse...and scare-mongering towards the therapists to record anything that might be considered violent such as "Oh I could just kill her!" because someone wore your dress to prom, you know what I mean? They don't want to lose their jobs.

Oh trust me, I get that. Most people tend to be able to pick up on sarcasm and separate that from actual death threats, I'd like to think the people required to report this would undergo training towards that skill, but I wouldn't expect it at all.

Anything can be abused.

And the new thread title isn't really appropriate, you can have all the violent thoughts you want in the world. It's up to you not to voice them around someone who would potentially take them seriously.

For example... One of my cats is an a-hole. She's a complete a-hole. I love her, but I'm constantly threatening to punch her in the balls (which is funny for two reasons). Now, taken out of context, someone hears me say "I'm gonna punch you in the balls" and to them, that's a potentially violent threat.

It's silly yes, but the fact remains, if you are dumb enough to threaten someone, joking or not, infront of someone tasked with reporting that type of behavior, you are an idiot, and yeah, if you can't think that far ahead with something as simple as a death threat, I'm not entirely sure you'd be a responsible gun owner.

I will agree that the title could be more specific.

The thing here is that it's a Therapist, in a Therapist office you have some guaranteed privacy. Even years after my Father's suicide there is no way I will EVER get any information on anything that lead up to it. Complaining to a therapist and making an off the cuff remark like I've given examples of earlier isn't exactly making a death threat, there has always been the "Do you think you will harm yourself or others" question which is the ONE they can put you away for, but I can say no to that and say I really want to strangle my best friend right now because she is being irresponsible and not mean it... but in the context of what they are going to consider a violent thought, I'd be reported. Hope that makes sense here.

reply to post by redhorse

The comparison between a private therapy session and an airport security line is absurd. The contexts are completely different.

It's a valid comparison. At the security line, you are well aware that you are being monitored for suspicious behavior. With this law in place, you are well aware that your healthcare provider is screening you for dangerous intent.

It's valid.

As was stated, allowing a patient to express frustration or even anger can be and often is necessary for progress to occur. Not to mention that in a therapy setting patients must feel safe and comfortable with their therapist. Common sense needs to be allowed (and is dismayingly so often already lacking in the mental health profession), and with this law compelling mental health professionals to potentially report any violent sentiment this is a potential disaster.

i can express my frustration and anger without threatening to kill someone, maybe that's a Canadian thing.

There is potential slippery slope aspect to this that is horrifying. What a draconian, ridiculous law.

At least we can agree on that. My pointing out the fact that it's up to the individual to not make death threats infront of someone tasked with reporting that. (I'm quite amazed I've had to type that as many times as i have) is in no way an endorsement of this insanity.

So, yes, common sense needs to be allowed. On the part of the professional AND the patient. I'm sorry, but if you can't express frustration and anger without making threats against people, YOU ARE MENTALLY UNSTABLE.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


I used Facebook as an example. It could be email,word of mouth. The consequences are the same. The more i see, the more i think the definition of Liberalism is doing the wrong thing for the right reason.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
Just curious -- what's your solution for the Adam Lanza's, the Jared Loughner's, the James Holmes' of our society? Just keep doing what we're doing - which is nothing? I pray that none of us ever has to face the horror of losing our child to a crazy person that got hold of a gun.

While I respect your stance on this subject, my intention is to open some minds to the idea that if this type of standard operating procedure is adopted, those Lanza's and Loughner's and Holmes' may not even go to the Dr. in the first place. They had been going, the problem I have here is with how the Mental Health Professionals sweep a lot of patient's under the rug without watching very closely their reactions to medications and pin pointing proper diagnoses.

Mental Health patient's wouldn't know what to do if a Dr. or Therapist actually listened to us and took the time to try and tweak what was wrong instead of shuffling us off to the next appointment.

I don't see how this is going to get more people to the Dr. at all.

reply to post by ValentineWiggin

I really want to strangle my best friend right now because she is being irresponsible and not mean it... but in the context of what they are going to consider a violent thought, I'd be reported. Hope that makes sense here.

Makes perfect sense, did in the OP as well, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Thought it might be fun instead of letting this turn into an anti-gun pro-gun diatribe.

Again though, it really comes down to what type of training, if any, these providers would have to take to be able to make a determination that you might pose a threat.

considering we're talking about a therapist, your therapist would be seeing you on a regular basis, would know your case history, and would probably know how you function as a person, allowing them to differentiate between an off the cuff "I'm so pissed i could punch her" and "I'm going to murder my boss and drink his brain goo".

But this again assumes the therapist is good at their job...

reply to post by jimmiec


I don't get what you mean? I really doubt your therapist is going to take the word of your ex.... Sorry, that has nothing to do with the OP.

But, don't get me wrong, I'm in full agreement that this is logistically unsound, and ripe for abuse.

reply to post by kaylaluv

Just curious -- what's your solution for the Adam Lanza's, the Jared Loughner's, the James Holmes' of our society? Just keep doing what we're doing - which is nothing? I pray that none of us ever has to face the horror of losing our child to a crazy person that got hold of a gun.

To my knowledge none of those shooters ever expressed violent intent until it was far too late, so, like a lot of things lately, that has nothing to do with anything.

If anything, those are examples of how the gun laws and mental health profession have failed, almost entirely. There is no gun law now, or currently proposed, that would have stopped any of those shooters..

And... I'm not exactly pro-gun,

In fact, and here's a comparison I amazed myself with:

Gun control laws(99% of them) are DRM (digital rights management)

They only impact the law abiding citizens and in no way hamper the criminals.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by ValentineWiggin

 

I really want to strangle my best friend right now because she is being irresponsible and not mean it... but in the context of what they are going to consider a violent thought, I'd be reported. Hope that makes sense here.

Makes perfect sense, did in the OP as well, I'm just playing devil's advocate. Thought it might be fun instead of letting this turn into an anti-gun pro-gun diatribe.

Again though, it really comes down to what type of training, if any, these providers would have to take to be able to make a determination that you might pose a threat.

considering we're talking about a therapist, your therapist would be seeing you on a regular basis, would know your case history, and would probably know how you function as a person, allowing them to differentiate between an off the cuff "I'm so pissed i could punch her" and "I'm going to murder my boss and drink his brain goo".

But this again assumes the therapist is good at their job...

Yeah I understand, the last thing I want was this to be a pro/anti gun debate, I wanted it to focus on the Mental Health side of it and the best way to handle that which is why I didn't use the title of the article.

reply to post by ValentineWiggin


I guess the moral of the story, at least what I'm taking from this, is that this will instil fear for those going to therapy, having to watch what they say and do in fear of being put on some list.

Sadly, this is already the world we live in, but I get it now, how exactly can you give yourself up freely and try to find help, if you have to keep your guard up.