Why do people assume one to be egotistical & pretentious if they've had various spiritual experienc

Here's something I'm wondering about, and it definitely has to do with Philosophical thought.

Throughout the years on ATS, I've posted on debates and various threads, that through various Spiritual and philosophical paths, I've come to experience all sorts of Mystical experiences, illumination, enlightenments, and various glimpses of states where there is no me anymore.

While this does not make me any different or any better than anyone else, it does set me in a category of "Those who have experienced certain things" as opposed to "those who have not experienced these same things."

Somebody always comes along and makes statements such as:

"So you've become a pretentious, & Holier than thou." or "So you think your better than everyone else."

There are always all these assumptions that project egotism and pretentiousness, and it's just not the case. But no matter how my stance is defended, people just carry along with assumptions & projections.

If this is the case, then Buddha, Jesus, all Mystics and Philosophers that have ever claimed to have experienced rare mystical experiences are also egotistical & pretentious, by the logic of these assumption and projections.

The one defense I have in my pocket (although the assumptions and projections will continue unclouded) is that, particularly in Buddhism (amongst many other spiritual paths and philosophies), there is mention of the trap of creating a Holier than thou spiritual based pretentious ego based on those experiences. It is mentioned that it is a trap for beginners and mentioned how to get past this trap and continue forward.

Also, Buddha said not to take his word for it, but to test his philosophies for yourself experiential where going within and your very own consciousness is the inner laboratory with which to test these premises.

But instead of testing any of these things, there is quite a few folks who continue to assume & project without any inner insight to whether these are true.

My whole point and motivation for bringing up these experiences is because they are AWESOME, and things that both Jesus & Buddha taught, I've tested myself and saw that they are true and out of Love and compassion, I wish others to be able to experience these things as they are a key to acquiring peace & love in this world where everything that is bad is caused by the Ego ....and I've seen places beyond the ego and have seen that the Ego is not I.

But of course assumptions & projections, without testing themselves the premises, will continue

I dont know if youve noticed but there is a growin trend of emotional responses and "know it alls" here. Know it alls are closed minded and if what you say isnt what they know then your wrong or dumb or anything for that matter. Emotional responders are unable to see past their emotions and respond accordingly. There is also a growing trend of "realist" here who are quick to shoot down any conspiracy saying that not everything is a conspiracy.

All of those represent what we wish to avoid here.

Originally posted by onequestion
I dont know if youve noticed but there is a growin trend of emotional responses and "know it alls" here. Know it alls are closed minded and if what you say isnt what they know then your wrong or dumb or anything for that matter. Emotional responders are unable to see past their emotions and respond accordingly. There is also a growing trend of "realist" here who are quick to shoot down any conspiracy saying that not everything is a conspiracy.

All of those represent what we wish to avoid here.

edit on 16-12-2012 by onequestion because: (no reason given)

Hey thanks for your reply and your right. Quick to respond based on emotion and lacking insight. Your so right about that. Star for you and thanks for taking part in the thread

it is a matter of reflection/projection and feelings brought on by their own egos feeling left out.

"i haven't felt this so surely no one else has because that would insinuate that this person got something i didn't and that isn't fair to me so i deem it impossible."

yet we need to get over ourselves? if you got over yourself, you might feel it, too! or you might not.

either way...just because you're not invited doesn't mean there isn't a party tonight!

reply to post by dominicus


These 'conditioned' responses are just that. It is no different than someone saying "oh, you're a conspiracy nut" when you ask legitimate questions about JFK, 9.11, etc;

With spirituality you are testifying to experiences that extend beyond the 5 senses. We have barely exited the Kali Yuga which is a period where the uninitiated are incapable of realizing anything beyond the 5 senses.

The average human is unwilling to look into the deepest, darkest areas of their mind and/or soul. The shadow owns them.

By calling you 'egotistic' they are 'drawing' first in a duel and taking away any ability to point out that their ego rules them too.

When you find someone like minded, have the discussion. Otherwise, don't take it personal. I suspect 90+% of the population is totally satisfied living in the material world and that is ok.

Originally posted by dominicus
Here's something I'm wondering about, and it definitely has to do with Philosophical thought.

Throughout the years on ATS, I've posted on debates and various threads, that through various Spiritual and philosophical paths, I've come to experience all sorts of Mystical experiences, illumination, enlightenments, and various glimpses of states where there is no me anymore.

While this does not make me any different or any better than anyone else, it does set me in a category of "Those who have experienced certain things" as opposed to "those who have not experienced these same things."

Somebody always comes along and makes statements such as:

"So you've become a pretentious, & Holier than thou." or "So you think your better than everyone else."

Indigo children, fundamental Christians and post-Buffy wiccans have all lead me to be wary about 'enlightened beings'.

Thank you for starting this thread because this issue needs to be addressed in some form. There is a certain individual in our ATS community who I believe is paid to DEBUNK peoples personal spiritual experiences. If one doesn't have a clue of who I'm speaking of then one needs to be more aware of what is going on in our community and be more attentive. I always hold myself back from commenting to this individual for the sake of T&C because I personally had enough.

Some people will NEVER comprehend spiritual experiences because they are too much of a left brained logic people. It takes certain amount of effort, dedication and overall belief to step away from ones mundane "reality" to a more "mystical" and "spiritual" realities and thus experience it. A swimming fish has no clue what is happening outside of the ocean life, just the same way these people have no clue about spiritual experiences until they put their logic brain aside and step into another reality. I personally choose not to share my spiritual experiences here for these same reasons. I believe it and that is enough.

reply to post by dominicus

ahh yes,lots of positivism/nihilism here lately
and there is an agenda
Sorry, But Your Soul Just Died Tom Wolfe
From neuroscience to Nietzsche. A sobering look at how man may perceive himself in the future, particularly as ideas about genetic predeterminism takes the place of dying Darwinism. . www.orthodoxytoday.org...

psychohistory has some answers and guides
i'll let peter carroll speak for himself:

THE PSYCHOHISTORIC MECHANISM OF THE AEONS

A superficial examination of the paradigms which have dominated aeons of cultural development indicates that three major worldviews have arisen to dominance in succession. These are the magical, transcendental, and materialist paradigms. A simple picture of these views rising successively to prominence has a certain descriptive use, but it lacks explanatory or predictive power and cannot account for the persistence or resurgence of a particular paradigm at some other point in cultural development. For this a more sophisticated model is required which includes a consideration of the various opposition philosophies which invariably complement the prevailing cultural paradigm. If the linear time frame of materialism and transcendentalism is combined with the cyclic Of recurrent time frame of magical philosophy, a graph can be derived which represents both the dominant and opposition paradigms in a form which exhibits considerable explanatory and predictive power, the Psychohistory model.

If there is a tide in the affairs of men then it is caused by deep changes in our views of self and reality, and politics are mere eddies and ripples on its surface. Armed with the psychohistoric model of aeonic change, the magician can readily see what factors he or she should work on to hasten, impede or reverse aeonic development in a particular culture or sub-culture.
***
However, one hopes that the primary concern for contemporary magic is to ensure the safe and speedy birth of the pandemonaeon from within nihilist culture. To assist in this transition. magical philosophy must strive for three things. Firstly, it must strive to eliminate any remaining transcendental or religious concepts which still contaminate it. These are destined for the dustbin of history for a long while. and when they eventually reemerge it will be in a completely different form anyway. No useful part of magic ought to be thrown away with them. Secondly. it must seek to present its ideas and techniques using maximum rational camouflage. Magic must enter popular consciousness using a series of Trojan horses. Thirdly. as a precautionary measure. magic should attempt to undermine the decaying remnants of monotheism without offering itself as a target in the process. For example, parapsychology is a threat to fundamentalism as it can show that " miracles" do not prove anything other than that some people can sometimes exercise miraculous abilities. On the other hand. the existence of various idiotic satanic cults often provides very convenient enemy figures for fundamentalists who often tend to invent them if they do not actually exist. Dangerous times lie ahead. Millennial apocalyptic beliefs present in monotheism may still yet trigger disaster during the death spasms of transcendentalism. A fierce rearguard action may be expected from materialist philosophies as they slide further into a nihilism whose adherents will. for a while, demand ever more of what is not working . ever more luxury and sensationalism in an ecology unable to support it. The birth of the pandemonaeon as a generally accepted paradigm could be a long and bloody business. If things go badly it could be preceded by a catastrophe which precipitates us into a new stone age rather than an interstellar age. Although there will be important niches for magicians in either situation, I would prefer my descendants to perform their sorceries among the stars rather than huddled in the ruins.

excerpted from Peter Carrolls Liber Kaos

excerpted from Peter Carroll's Liber Kaos chapter 2 Aeonics [The Psychohistorical Model of History]

In the materialist paradigm the universe is believed to consist fundamentally and entirely of matter. Energy is but a form of matter and together they subtend space and time within which
change occurs strictly on the basis of cause and effect. Human behavior is reducible to biology,biology is reducible to chemistry, chemistry is reducible to physics and physics is reducible to mathematics. Mind and consciousness are thus merely electrochemical events in the brain and spirit is a word without objective content. The causes of some events are likely to remain obscure perhaps Indefinitely, but there is an underlying faith that sufficient material cause must exist for any event. All human acts can be categorized as serving some biological need or as expressions of previously applied conditioning or merely as malfunctions. The goal of the materialist who eschews suicide is the pursuit of personal satisfaction including altruistic satisfactions if desired.
***

In my experience a lot of the 'enlightened' ones bring misfortune on themselves by taking a superior position and then getting insulting whenever anyone doubts them. It's even the case that certain avatar choices provide an indication of the general input they're likely to generate. Transcendental imagery and a tendency to shades of purple in their fonts/backgrounds are like mini-red flags.

This won't include every 'enlightened' claimant however a few have done enough damage to the notion that many ATSers are on their guard straight away.

As an outcome of this experience I usually just leave them to it. After all there's no real harm in a bunch of spiritual elitists having a chat about their chakras and starring each other's posts. Each to their own...

Originally posted by dominicus
Here's something I'm wondering about, and it definitely has to do with Philosophical thought.

Throughout the years on ATS, I've posted on debates and various threads, that through various Spiritual and philosophical paths, I've come to experience all sorts of Mystical experiences, illumination, enlightenments, and various glimpses of states where there is no me anymore.

While this does not make me any different or any better than anyone else, it does set me in a category of "Those who have experienced certain things" as opposed to "those who have not experienced these same things."

Somebody always comes along and makes statements such as:

"So you've become a pretentious, & Holier than thou." or "So you think your better than everyone else."

There are always all these assumptions that project egotism and pretentiousness, and it's just not the case. But no matter how my stance is defended, people just carry along with assumptions & projections.

If this is the case, then Buddha, Jesus, all Mystics and Philosophers that have ever claimed to have experienced rare mystical experiences are also egotistical & pretentious, by the logic of these assumption and projections.

The one defense I have in my pocket (although the assumptions and projections will continue unclouded) is that, particularly in Buddhism (amongst many other spiritual paths and philosophies), there is mention of the trap of creating a Holier than thou spiritual based pretentious ego based on those experiences. It is mentioned that it is a trap for beginners and mentioned how to get past this trap and continue forward.

Also, Buddha said not to take his word for it, but to test his philosophies for yourself experiential where going within and your very own consciousness is the inner laboratory with which to test these premises.

But instead of testing any of these things, there is quite a few folks who continue to assume & project without any inner insight to whether these are true.

My whole point and motivation for bringing up these experiences is because they are AWESOME, and things that both Jesus & Buddha taught, I've tested myself and saw that they are true and out of Love and compassion, I wish others to be able to experience these things as they are a key to acquiring peace & love in this world where everything that is bad is caused by the Ego ....and I've seen places beyond the ego and have seen that the Ego is not I.

But of course assumptions & projections, without testing themselves the premises, will continue

Some people will always be stuck inside the box no matter how many times you try to show them the light, these people are not yet ready to ascend, nothing you do will wake these people, your message will always fall on deaf ears, instead concentrate on the positive energy and the people who are willing to receive the message we have been given, do not waste your time on fruitless labor, I understand how frustrating it can be and the need to try to wake these people, I have come to accept that some people are not ready to wake up!

reply to post by dominicus

Well because when somebody has some special power or ability it can lead to it getting to their head. So if somebody says "I'm telepathic," it's like them saying "Do as I say!"

If they believe they're telepathic, it'll probably get to their head, understand?

People who have special powers don't always get haughty, but I think when somebody feels different, it's inevitable that they start to draw lines between themselves and others. They start to make excuses that others don't understand them and that they're somehow in a league of their own.

That and most people that say "I'm telepathic." are kind of, ummm, loopy in the head.

I'm really really glad I'm not a telepath, although I've often wished for the ability to instantly get someone's attention if I need it, but I guess that might be annoying for the other person. I've also wished for the ability to be invisible and to have a photographic memory and to fly.

I think some people, maybe including myself (I'm known to fantasize), are susceptible to the notion that if we just had special power X or Y that our life would be so much more enjoyable. But life isn't defined by how awesome we're, it's defined by how well we use the resources given to us.

reply to post by dominicus


One man's mystical experience is another man's hallucination, delusion or coincidence. I've had weird experiences involving synchronicities etc. but then I remember the unfathomable amount of non-synchronicities I've had, which it seems the mystical crowd refuse to consider.

I would, however, never assume one to be egotistical or pretentious without knowing them.

reply to post by jonnywhite

People who have special powers don't always get haughty, but I think when somebody feels different, it's inevitable that they start to draw lines between themselves and others.

And yet everyone is different. No two people are alike on this planet.

They start to make excuses that others don't understand them and that they're somehow in a league of their own.

An elite athlete, antique watch maker, master mechanic, doctor, architect, brain surgeon, quantum physicist, and many other specialists are in their own leagues when it comes to their crafts, I can personally respect them for it and have an understanding that they hold a set skills and knowledge that I do not. If there is something wrong in my life, car, health, broken antique watch, I can go to any of the experts and trust their level of skill and knowledge.

Sure some of these specialists may have an over inflated position based ego, but not all of them do. Same applies to those who claim spiritual experiences.

That and most people that say "I'm telepathic." are kind of, ummm, loopy in the head.

There are many more claims being made of the Spiritual kind then just telepathy. So let's keep that in mind.



reply to post by LesMisanthrope

One man's mystical experience is another man's hallucination, delusion or coincidence.

According to Buddhism and various nondual philosophies, the mystical experiences are true reality and everything that isn't that, is a hallucination. If that's true, then we can say 99.9% are hallucinating. Woldn't that be something!!!!

I've had weird experiences involving synchronicities etc. but then I remember the unfathomable amount of non-synchronicities I've had, which it seems the mystical crowd refuse to consider.

While one could possibly consider coincidences as falling somewhere in the category of being SPiritual or mystical, I was leaning more towards very powerful experiences such as the whole body feeling on fire due to kundalini, the third eye opening and seeing other realms and through walls, leaving the body as non-local consciousness, and merging with the All (where there no longer is a subjective you) amongst other things.

I would, however, never assume one to be egotistical or pretentious without knowing them.

Bravo!!!! That's the way it should be. Unless you personally know the person well, egotism and pretentiousness are merely projections and assumptions

To answer the question you used as title for this thread. Reread=Since they had various spiritual experiences.

reply to post by dominicus


Many philosophies believe they can conceive reality properly but every single time, at least to me, they are inadequate and merely represent artistic interpretations through the eyes of one single man/woman. Everyone is capable of coming up with his own interpretation and applying it to his own perspective without the need for thinking it applies to others. Mystics, of course, like all dogmatists, think that their perspective is somehow relevant to the perspectives of others and that it somehow represents a fundamental truth common to all humans. But this obviously isn't the case.

I used to be Buddhist, even to the point of making a pilgrimage to Tibet. I used to gravitate towards mystical beliefs but only because I thought they brought significance to my existence. After disposing of that need for meaning and purpose, I sent my body into extremes, ie. fasting, meditation, self-hypnosis, self-medication etc, to test the boundaries of my reality. And although I saw different dimensions, had out of body experiences and even a near death experience where I spoke to the dead, I couldn't tear these visions from their cause and context—namely, the methods through which I was deceiving my own body. We don't live life self-hypnotized, or on drugs, or separate from our senses, and these became to me not reality, but methods through which to explore the limits of one's perception of reality.

I've spoken to stroke patients, people with head injuries, drug addicts, the clinically-dead and the delusional. In almost every case they relayed the same experiences I've had, except mine were self-induced and happened on my own accord. These people were not mystics, but had very similar mystical experiences.

The only thing evident was that the body is capable of some amazing things. This, to me, became truth, and these realities I once sought became my own fabrications. Now that I've seen them I don't need to retreat to them again, for every single time, I'm brought back to the reality I never actually departed from in the first place.

I think it is the Mystics who, when people don't believe them or don't require their methods to live life, discard these people's points of view as petty and superficial, when in actuality we find the opposite is the case.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope

I think it is the Mystics who, when people don't believe them or don't require their methods to live life, discard these people's points of view as petty and superficial, when in actuality we find the opposite is the case.

As a Mystic, I don't discard anyone's pov, as everyone has One and I understand where you are coming from.

However, for me, I remember pre-existing prior to taking on a body here on earth and have met others who remember pre-existing. In that case, there is much more going on than meets the eye.

Now, as far as I go, since I was a child, all of this existence in a human body, who my dad and mom were, friends, physical death, this all seemed so artificial and not right. Like there is a schism in existence and I set out from childhood to find out what is really going on here. My existence here bothered me so much and I hated myself so much that I sought suicide once upon a time. What I finally realized, is that it was the ego construct which I was hating, which was artificial to my true nature. My investigations led to Direct experiences that have remained with me since, brought me to a detachment, a timelessness, compassion, and transcendence that I have never had prior to all this.

I find myself now complete, lacking, nor fearing nothing. I've directly seen that I am not the body, nor the mind(which itself superimposes illusions over a naked reality) and have met many MANY others who are now where I have come to.

There are man traps, trickery, and illusion of the mind along the way. I would consider, or at least wonder about in your case, if you've brought about your experiences by certain methods and have believed them to be artificial or illusions, when in all actuality that was not the case.

So I've since found the collective narcissism and egotism to be the cause of the world's ills and not truly who we really are. I've figured it out in myself and have seen in others how they've imprisoned themselves with delusions of the minds making and I've tested what Buddha, Jesus, Socrates, Nisargadatta, and many others have taught and found them to be true Universally across the board and applicable to everyone and have found a few thousand, if not more, folks who also agree with this by seeing for themselves (some here on ats as well).

Along with this, as most scriptures and philosophies around the world say, we are going to evolve towards that regardless, and technology may give us a hand in that arena (Imagine a spirituality machine that allows everyone to access higher consciousness directly and makes it permanent)

So I understand where you are coming from, however wonder about your conclusions as the psyche/minds self justification of sorts

reply to post by dominicus


I have no beef with critical thinkers claiming to have mystical experiences. Problem is, I haven't met a critical thinker that has had any of these experiences.

Those claiming to have had 'special' events happen to them are merely assigning a false higher meaning to that which is downright common. We all do it, but the difference is once the critical thinkers analyze the experience they fully realize that the logical answer far outweighs the mystical.

Just today I was in desperate need of leg cramp medication. I hadn't slept in 36 hours because my legs wouldn't let me. I thought the pills I needed would cost me $5.39. I had $3.00 on my atm card, one dollar in my wallet and some loose change. I also had a lottery ticket worth $1.00. This would cover the pills.

I went to my corner store to cash in the ticket, but the lottery machine wasn't working for some reason. I explained to the store owner that I was in terrible pain and needed that dollar to buy some medication at CVS. Saying that he would run the ticket through the machine later, the owner gave me the dollar and asked me if I needed another dollar just in case.

I was sure I was all set, but I took the extra dollar with the idea that if I didn't need it I would return it to him. Keep in mind that the owner and I are not friends or anything, but I am a regular customer. When I got to CVS I found that the price of the pills were EXACTLY $1.00 more than I had expected.

So, I got the pills and all the way home I wondered why in the world the store owner would offer me an extra dollar? It wasn't some random number like offering to loan me five bucks. And the owner had no idea what the price was for the pills I needed. That one dollar was exactly the extra I needed or else my next 24 hours of leg cramps would have been hell.

Was there magic at work here? Was this a miracle?
Is there really a god and a guardian angel looking out for me?

Of course, the naive believers would say "YES! God is great and wonderful and takes care of us!" And anyone that challenged this belief would be met with deaf ears and an arrogant attitude.

The critical thinker, however, would also have to ask these questions:

Is god so weak that he can only manage to toss me a buck while millions go starving around the world? Does he care more about my leg cramps than he does about those dying of cancer? The answer is, no, the store owner giving me that extra dollar was just a fluke thing that happened. It was simply a nice guy doing a nice thing for me.

More to the point, if there really was a god there is no way I would insult him by giving him credit for such a small thing while he ignored the big troubles in this world. If there is a reason why he allows such pain and suffering in this life, then he certainly wouldn't waste his time on leg cramp medication for me. And, this god would know that I would be sickened by the thought of him helping me while there are BILLIONS of people in dire need of everything.

There is no god. There is no magic. Life is ONLY what we make of it.

reply to post by jiggerj

I have no beef with critical thinkers claiming to have mystical experiences. Problem is, I haven't met a critical thinker that has had any of these experiences.

perhaps you've only met a handful of people in life then. Who knows. But they are out there.

Those claiming to have had 'special' events happen to them are merely assigning a false higher meaning to that which is downright common.

Perhaps you're merely assigning the above false higher assumption.

We all do it, but the difference is once the critical thinkers analyze the experience they fully realize that the logical answer far outweighs the mystical.

An NDE, timelessness, consciousness leaving the body, the Awe of a grand sunset, the beauty of abstract art, that deep soulful feeling inside for a good song ........all illogical, not to mention existence itself ...all this from nothing, illogical, abstract, and infinite math.

Logic & reason have their place, but lacks another hemisphere of the brain, lacks heart, lacks intuition. If we're discussing human existence, we need not leave out the other portions. The experiences I speak f, are not accessed through logic (though they can be in philosophy), but mostly accessed through a balance of both hemispheres and intuition.

There is no god. There is no magic. Life is ONLY what we make of it.

opinion...... no proof. Have you spent years looking within and finding out that you are a soul that can freely travel outside of the body and remembered pre-existing prior to taking on a body?

I cannot deny this. I hear where your coming from because being born on earth, we forget our true nature and who we really are and come from. So the only conclusion is to embrace logic and science (both which are limited and incomplete) and impossible to use to fathom the ineffable.

Logic & reason will tell you that logic and reason is limited. Realty/Existence all happen prior to what you think of it, prior to logic and reason, which play's catch up in retrospect to piece together what just happened in the present moment. By the time you figure it out, the moment is gone, and the next one is here.

And, this god would know that I would be sickened by the thought of him helping me while there are BILLIONS of people in dire need of everything.

God is Infinite Consciousness. He's not necessarily some guy on cloud with a beard. It's like the infinite potential of the number 0. You can go to negative 1 or to 1, and in between 0 and 1, there are an infinite number of slices there, i.e, 0.1, 0.01, 0.001, 0.001 ad infinitum.

So everything we see is slice with free will. We can literally band together tomorrow, bring in the best minds, and solve all the world's biggest problems (disease, war, hunger, etc). And we will get there through science and spirituality. The two are married and they will eventually quantify each other. It's the next logical evolutionary step. Even tech can create spirituality and empathy machines that will light up electromagnetically certain corresponding brains centers, giving people perspective guns, etc. ...it will be the end of what you see here, but it's all in our hands....free will buddy, that doesn't mean a source doesn't exist

reply to post by dominicus

An NDE, timelessness, consciousness leaving the body,

As an atheist I can select what I believe in. Evolution - yes. The Big Bang - not as described. The idea that there was once a state of absolute nothing - no, not possible.

But, this is where critical thinking goes out the window. Once that metaphysical door is open just a crack, it flies wide open. If people believe in an imaginary god, then they automatically believe that all of the nonsense is possible: angels, demons, spirits, ghosts, heaven, hell, miracles, reincarnation, NDE, OOBE, levitation, astral projection...

It's an embarrassment to mankind.