James; Waiting for God

This thread, incidentally, is a sequel to the attached;

James; The fate of the wealthy

Originally posted by Spike Spiegle
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

That's funny and impossible to answer.

Answer me this, whats your point?

I wasn't saying the colonization of the Americas was a good or bad thing...


I was just stating as fact, remember; Guns, Germs and steel?
Guns, Germs and Steel



SS

My point is, stuff happens, and sometimes it's because it's meant to happen. History repeats itself.

S&F good read.
In my opinion, those who follow Jesus are going to be persecuted or rejected by many at the very least.

"Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also." (John 15:20)

"Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matthew 5:10-12)

At a local church, I remember the pastor's wife spoke about how "blessed we are not to have to deal with persecution". I do recall the pastor going on about how "We're all sinners, *points to random persons*..say ALL,... *nearly everyone says 'all' in unison* ..There's none righteous. Your works are like dirty rags in God's sight."
Instead of being told, "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of rightousness..", people are being told "We're blessed because we aren't persecuted, and we're not ashamed to admit that we're sinners either."

Originally posted by Spike Spiegle
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

I'm sorry but if you make a thread on, or about religious matters you will be called upon to defend said values...

Let's say i made a thread on or about George Carlin and I happened to mention he was an Atheist.

I would then be prepared to defend my values/ beliefs,as befits a public debate forum.


No?


SS

No, actually, he doesn't have to do anything. He's merely presenting his view on the topic and one that a lot of us here do appreciate. He puts a lot of work into his threads for a troll like you to come by and destroy the first page so please go away.

reply to post by Wonders

Yes, when the absence of persecution is called a "blessing", people are using the word in a looser sense, meaning the kind of thing for which we ought to be grateful, like food and health.
Though, to be fair, the saints of the Old Testament would have regarded "Peace" (i.e. not being harassed by enemies or any other kind of troubles) as a "blessing".

The argument on the other side, of course, is that the absence of persecution may well be a symptom that the church is too much at peace with the world, and that a church which was really doing God's will would probably end up being persecuted.

Anyway, the advice in the New Testament is more about dealing with persecution when it comes, than about wishing it upon ourselves.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Wonders

 

Yes, when the absence of persecution is called a "blessing", people are using the word in a looser sense, meaning the kind of thing for which we ought to be grateful, like food and health.
Though, to be fair, the saints of the Old Testament would have regarded "Peace" (i.e. not being harassed by enemies or any other kind of troubles) as a "blessing".

The argument on the other side, of course, is that the absence of persecution may well be a symptom that the church is too much at peace with the world, and that a church which was really doing God's will would probably end up being persecuted.

Anyway, the advice in the New Testament is more about dealing with persecution when it comes, than about wishing it upon ourselves.

"wishing it upon ourselves", I'm not wishing persecution upon Christians but I do know a Christian who was going around telling people that he was praying for persecution in America, I'm not that person.
HOWEVER, Jesus didn't say that those who follow him "would probably end up being persecuted."
Most Christians REFUSE to believe what Jesus says, and it friggen shows.

Apparently this verse bears REPEATING.

"Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also." (John 15:20)

reply to post by Wonders

You're right, of course.
Point taken.
I appreciate your interest in this discussion.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Wonders

 

You're right, of course.
Point taken.
I appreciate your interest in this discussion.

Thanks, I appreciate people who are willing to see something for what it is.
With all of the ambiguity in the world, don't forget that some things are promises and not merely threats.

Interesting comparison; James and Revelation

James ch5 vv7-11 has the same background as the book of Revelation. In both cases, the community is dealing with the experience of persecution.
Not surprisingly, we can find similarities in the way they deal with the problem

James tells the brethren to wait for the Lord’s return.
This can be identified with the “last days”, when the persecutors will lose their wealth, and the “day of slaughter”, for which, all unconsciously, they’ve been preparing themselves.
Similarly, the purpose of all the plagues of Revelation is to express God’s wrath against the persecuting world, culminating in the downfall of that world.
The Lord’s victorious return to the world is described in Revelation ch19.

James tells the brethren to be patient while waiting for this event, and to be steadfast in their hearts.
Similarly Revelation has the refrain “Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints” (ch13 v10, ch14 v12), which neatly sums up the reason for the book’s existence.

James points the brethren to the example of Job.
Similarly, some of the observations in Revelation are indirect allusions to the same story.
In the time of the fifth trumpet, people long for a death which does not come (Revelation ch9 v6), just as Job did (Job ch3 v21).
In the time of the fifth bowl, they suffer from pains and sores and curse the God of heaven (Revelation ch16 v10), just as Job suffered from loathsome sores and was invited to curse God (Job ch2 vv7-10).
So the fifth trumpet and bowl are describing the spiritual state of a world which suffers, like Job, but lacks the ultimate Faith which he was demonstrating.
The implied moral is what James states outright, that the patience of Job is the right example to be followed in the midst of suffering.

Finally James draws attention to “the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful”. I suggested that he was pointing the brethren to the story of Christ and the gospel message.
Similarly Christ is the central figure in the hopes of Revelation.
The first chapter highlights his resurrection, which implies that Christ is able to save the church from persecution through the same resurrection power.
The fifth chapter presents the death and resurrection of the Lamb as the central event of the whole book; they make it possible for Christ to “open the seals” of the scroll which contains the rest of salvation history, and that sets in motion all the remaining events, right down to the appearance of the “new Jerusalem”.

These similarities are not surprising if James and Revelation come from what is fundamentally the same community, sharing that common experience.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
(see, for example, Hebrews ch11 vv32-38, which James might have read)

I would justify this suggestion by pointing to the way that ch2 vv19-26 appears to allude to different parts of Hebrew ch11.
I discussed these allusions in the thread on "Faith and Works".

For information;
The next thread in this series will cover the final portion of the letter of James, and will probably be published in ten days or so.

reply to post by DISRAELI

For further information;
Once the series is complete, there will then be an "Index" thread, similar to (but less ambitious than) the Index thread which I attached to the Revelation series.

Now that the series on James is complete, an Index of the various threads can be found at this location;

James; Teacher of Faith and Wisdom