It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by NarrowGate
This is an example of why it is fruitless, you know nothing of Christian theology.
What an utterly moronic statement. You have no clue what I know of Christian theology.
1) In our religion any "god" who is not the I AM, Christ, is false. Many of them are surely demons (Moloch for instance, Baal is another example...there are thousands of demons though), and it is valid logic to assert that they all are.
So a person who calls God Yahweh or Allah is worshipping a 'false' God?
Originally posted by NarrowGate
My claim that you know nothing of Christian theology stands. You have read about it probably, but not experienced it, and therefore do not know if what you are reading is real or not.
Your sources are not credible I am saying that for your benefit, not to appear intellectual or make me "right" and you "wrong". If you really seek the truth of the world, you should re-consider this extreme point of view.
I am aware of the claims that Christians just "made Satan up". I have researched it.
If you met someone who has had friends killed by demon(s), and has had to fight through years of demonic oppression, you would jump to the conclusion that they are crazy.
Moral cop out? We list sins in confession, not demons. We are responsible when we fall, possession is rare and does take away any responsibility of that soul for their actions because they are not the ones performing the actions.
I am also aware that some (not many, I would like to think 0.00001%) Masons worship demons and know what they are doing.
Originally posted by NarrowGate
in short - Not even close.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by NarrowGate
My claim that you know nothing of Christian theology stands. You have read about it probably, but not experienced it, and therefore do not know if what you are reading is real or not.
I was raised Roman Catholic and was probably one longer then you have been alive. I have experienced enough Christian theology personally to know exactly what I am talking about.
Your sources are not credible I am saying that for your benefit, not to appear intellectual or make me "right" and you "wrong". If you really seek the truth of the world, you should re-consider this extreme point of view.
What source is not credible? Learn to be specific.
I am aware of the claims that Christians just "made Satan up". I have researched it.
Then link your 'research' so we can discuss its merits.
If you met someone who has had friends killed by demon(s), and has had to fight through years of demonic oppression, you would jump to the conclusion that they are crazy.
You are certainly correct there. Anyone who tries to tell me their pal got killed by a demon after being possessed by one for years is certainly nuts and was not a very good friends for allowing them to suffer the anguish of mental issues without getting them some serious help to treat it.
Moral cop out? We list sins in confession, not demons. We are responsible when we fall, possession is rare and does take away any responsibility of that soul for their actions because they are not the ones performing the actions.
Possession is bull and there is not evidence to the contrary. If you think people can exonerate themselves by claiming 'demons made them do it' then you really need to reassess what it means to take responsibility for ones self and holding yourself accountable for your actions.
This is exactly what is wrong with the world, it is always someone else's, or in this case, something else's fault that you acted horribly.
I am also aware that some (not many, I would like to think 0.00001%) Masons worship demons and know what they are doing.
Such as? More internet innuendo.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by NarrowGate
in short - Not even close.
Your answer is not understandable.
Are you saying, yes or no, that a person who calls God Yahweh or Allah is worshipping a fasle god?
Originally posted by NarrowGate
Originally posted by darkhorserider
Originally posted by muzzleflash
reply to post by darkhorserider
Sorry to nitpick but people can worship something unknowingly.
For example money, most will do anything for it, but claim
they don't worship it.
Point is, people subconsciously exalt all sorts of things without
being fully aware of theirthoughts or actions.
Meh...... I dunno about that.
Of course we sarcastically mention things like money, and football as religions, but people don't really look to those things for spiritual guidance. People definitely prioritize money above all else, and they definitely dedicate more time to pursuing money than spiritual growth, but it isn't "worship."
I do not believe a person could unknowingly worship an evil entity, while thinking they were worshipping something good. If all their time and energy is poured into worshipping and emulating the good parts of a religion, and then someone pulls a gotcha and says, it was really Satan all along..... so what? If the time and energy went into good works, and good deeds, and honorable actions, then switching the names is meaningless. There is no way someone could trick you into doing great things for an evil entity.
Although, sometimes I wonder if the opposite might work. It seems a lot of people get tricked into doing evil things in the name of a good entity.
I have not read all of this thread but I had to respond to this post right when I saw it.
1) I am a Christian so bear with me. I know you don't believe that Satan exists as an independent spirit with free-will so create a "hypothetical" situation in your mind where it does and it is not just a symbol of evil (this is actually reality). I do ask this question - what is the most commonly held belief about Satan among Masonic Christians?
2) I do not believe one way or another about Masonry being inspired by Satan. In the last year I have become aware of the fact that I know very little, and to speculate on such a thing *and* "preach it as doctrine"(slander) could be dangerous not only to my soul but to anyone in the world I influence as well.
Please keep that in mind while discussing this with me, if you choose to respond (and I would welcome responses from any Masons actually).
A. People do worship money. I once worshiped money. Only when I realized that I was engaging in border-line idle worship did I see what the word "worship" really means. When you put money before God's Law in your life, you are indeed worshiping money. Your life is an act of worship, you are choosing your path not only in your Faith but also in your *actions*. Jesus has made the path to eternal life clear.
B. It is a known Truth that Satan appears as the Angel of Light and will continue to until Revelations.It is a subtle evil of the worst kind. It is a whitewashed wall, pure and loving on the outside but dirty and hateful on the inside. The lesser demons are *more or less* responsible for the *blatant* hate in the world.
That being said you bring up an extremely valid point. IF Masonry is Satanic - so what!?While it would in that situation be extremely dangerous to brothers and sisters in the Masons (in the human sense of the words, not fraternal), and put their eternal soul's in jeopardy - God is allowing them to be. In fact, we know for certain God is allowing Satan to be as well (for the time being, his fate is sealed and he is beyond redemption). ALL things work for the good of believers. Let the wheat and the weeds grow together until the harvest. One thing that is very annoying to me is all of the hype and *slander* among supposed Christians. As we know, YOU DO NOT KNOW. You are speculating and then potentially turning your speculation into slander. If Satan had a goal here, I think he accomplished it in you just as much as in them. You stray from God's word you lose *every time*, I don't care if the reason you are straying from Him is to kill Satan himself. I don't care if you are a Mason or a Roman Catholic or both (side question - are there a lot of those?).
Do not slander Masons as evil. If they are unintentionally falling to Satan, then who are you to judge. You have too, that much should be evident to you.
Satan needs division to conquer. One thing I will say though - if Mason's do not allow the name of Jesus in their lodges and take His name out of His prayers THAT is a very red flag. You can not worship with people who are worshiping false God's and as any Christian knows it would actually violate the Commandment of not having any false God's in front of the Lord. Furthermore, to pretend it is okay for a man to never find Truth ( which is a person, Jesus) and then call him brother is very evil IMHO.
I have more questions and speculation for later.
Originally posted by NarrowGate
2)I did not say possession I said oppression. You obviously know ABSOLUTELY zero about this topic (the difference between possession and oppression is very basic) and have never looked into it because it does not appeal to the "intellectual" in you.
If you go back through this discussion you will see where you ignored what I said multiple times, and pretended I did not answer questions that I infact already did.
I have absolutely nothing against Masons and have considered joining more than once, but I am loyal to God first and must reconcile it with my beliefs before I even consider it more.
4) Many Roman Catholics have no idea what the Church actually teaches. You have never read the Catechism, that much you have made apparent but go ahead and say you did.
5) Exonerate? God is in control. If you get possessed God allowed it and will account for it in His plans for your salvation. No need to exonerate anyone...
6) This is exactly what is wrong with the world.Intellectuals who think they know everything, and think that everything that happens has a human being that needs to be blamed and held accountable. Not only that, but think they can actually figure out which human is accountable.
7) there is an example of a Rosicrucian (claimed) worshiping Molech in this very thread.
There are more that responded about the other demons they worship// they just call them gods. Are they Masons? IDK... maybe I am asserting something I don't know.... 0.00001% hardly sounds like innuendo. You can not prove anything with a percentage that small.
8) You really do remind me of a politician. I hope you are not a man in a position of power...that would be disastrous for anyone under you. Your idea of responsibility and accountability is another example of an EXTREME point of view. The truth in this life is almost always in the middle.
Even without demons, sometimes people are just not responsible for what happened.
Are you one of those people who will never consider that they could be wrong?
Originally posted by NarrowGate
No they are worshipping the I AM. They are a couple thousand years behind, but worshiping the true God.
Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by NarrowGate
Since Molech, Lucifer, and Satan are not the same people, your who premise is a moot point. Early Christians didn't even believe in Satan, which is a concept derived from other works. God was essentially himself and hades, in a judge, jury, and executioner style. Molech is a god of wisdom, derived from the owl, which is wise because it can see the light in the dark. Lucifer is literally the light-bearer and is based on Venus. Satan is a made up catholic concept to keep Christians from questioning 'God'. All gods eventually lead back to one source - The Great Architect.
Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
I am also aware that some (not many, I would like to think 0.00001%) Masons worship demons and know what they are doing. Does that mean Masons worship demons?
Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
Have we even been in the same thread? I am done talking to you now. You are more interested in being right than an actual discussion.
I ask any Christian Masons out there - IS THIS MAN A GOOD REPRESENTATION OF YOUR BROTHERHOOD!?
Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
Please can a Christian Mason clear this mess up for me before I end up thinking you are all this naive?
Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Is it really so intimidating that the Alpha and Omega might not go by the name you're comfortable with?
Fitz