There Is No Such Thing As Non-Physical Reality!

You heard it right! I am sorry to disappoint all you spiritual people out there. Everything is physical! There is no such thing as transcendence of physicality. What we call spiritual existence, or higher planes of reality, are simply more complex, and more subtle, levels of physical reality.

Your thoughts, your dreams, are physical phenomena. I cannot claim to accurately describe the exact mechanisms behind the physical reality of thoughts and dreams. Let me just propose one possible degree of extreme subtlety, to help you conceptualize. Suppose that thoughts, and mental images such as those in dreams, create a disturbance at the atomic level. As you think things, and your emotion changes, there are changes to your atomic configuration. You can see how at least this level of change must occur.

If you consider that, not to mention changes at a neural level, which is a much larger scale, then let us think of the implications. Your conceptualization of this is probably under the particle interpretation of reality, yet there is a wave-particle duality to take into account. Physical reality is really both wave and particle, depending on how you look at it. If we consider the alteration at the atomic level previously spoken of in wave-form, the implications become more clear. With your thoughts, there is a shift in atomic structure, which in this case means a shift in its wave-form. This wave-form is not limited in space, and so simply spreads out with the energy all-around it, causing an alteration in the wave-forms of everything. This implies a level of reality where thoughts, and other phenomena we consider to be 'non-physical' take place.

The acute reader will understand the implications, and will likely associate this with the law of attraction. That is correct, upon analysis you can see this as a working mechanism behind the law of attraction. Once we have established some of the implications of what I am saying, which may have at first seemed anti-spiritual and materialistic, I will have to now apologize to the materialist. What I am speaking of is, in a way, very strict materialism, but this mode of thought followed to its end leads to what has been called spiritual, though is not truly non-physical. What I am speaking of is physcal in the strict sense, relativistic, quantum, uncertain. An update to our understanding of what 'physical' actually means demonstrates no contradiction between the physical reality of materialists and the transcendental realities of the spiritualists.

Spiritual transcendence is a very unique idea, what makes you think the laws of the universe would necessarily even apply?

This is something that has been talked about for pretty much all of human history, stating something as fact on the matter isn't going to stop that.

oh nvm you answered me i give up.

reply to post by TheJourney


Everything in our world has physical implications, I believe that is correct. But it doesn't mean that the physical level is all there is. Your drives, motives, perception, attention, memory (etc.) helps the ego (Physical too?) to operate in the physical world, but they are operational definitions. How can you measure the above? How can you measure perception? You cannot measure it by itself, you need a physical relation to make an observation and relate perception to it, but you cannot separate "perception" by itself from the rest of the neurons and call it "perception".

Does it makes sense?

we all must be acute readers.

When humans accomplish creating actual virtual realities, which we're moving closer to, you'll start to wonder if maybe there are higher beings who created physical reality. Just stop right where you are and let yourself grow mentally to accept the fact us humans don't have the answers to much. We don't even fully understand ourselves, after however many years we've actually been around, we're stupid beings in a world where we're slightly more advanced than the rest.

Isn't dark matter non-physical?

Explain your understanding of "physical", because at the moment scientists believe non-physical matter and energy make up most of the universe.

reply to post by TheJourney


I have a feeling that after reading your post, the only arguments we would have would be over the definition of "spiritual" and "physical." It is rare on here, but you seem to have an understanding of advanced quantum psychology that I have been studying and working on as well. At first, your post seems to contradict my beliefs, but it must be read very carefully as it is very complex. Would you agree that we have free will? What about an afterlife?

Although you can explain thinking through quantum phenomena, are you taking multiple universes into account here? Also, would you be willing to separate the realm of ideas from the physical realm? Or would you want a new label for what we had previously determined to be physical in order to take into account the broader definition of physical that you promote?

In the end, I think your basic idea is that spirituality can be explained through science, which I am also a proponent of. Maybe you are saying that once something can be explained by science it becomes "physical?"

I think that a lot of thought should be put into word choice and usage, especially regarding "physical" and "spiritual" for your theory. Possibly even creating new words that are more descriptive in their definition to cover certain, more specific aspects.

I would avoid having an agenda in the definitions (like making them out so that they sound like they contradict spirituality when they don't) but instead work on a balanced set of them.

In the end, theories like this, if worded properly, have the potential to change the world. I would work on respecting and integrating your theories into religion, especially Eastern religion, that might be something to look into.

Originally posted by TheJourney
I cannot claim to accurately describe the exact mechanisms behind the physical reality of thoughts and dreams.

And this is the big promissory note given by all physical reductionists. I don't know how someone can claim that all reality can by reduced to the physical, and yet at the same time not provide a sufficient explanation for this claim.

Originally posted by TheJourney
You heard it right! I am sorry to disappoint all you spiritual people out there. Everything is physical! There is no such thing as transcendence of physicality. What we call spiritual existence, or higher planes of reality, are simply more complex, and more subtle, levels of physical reality...
An update to our understanding of what 'physical' actually means demonstrates no contradiction between the physical reality of materialists and the transcendental realities of the spiritualists.

edit on 30-7-2012 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-7-2012 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)

The way you've written your post makes it sound like you're really just looking for a for a fight, and so I must say I'm sorry to disappoint you, sir and/or madam, because I won't be giving you one. What we have here is a textbook case of the "tomayto-tomahto" problem. Those phenomenon commonly referred to as "non-physical" are what they are independent of the vocabulary used to describe them. Framing them in the jargon of the reigning materialist paradigm doesn't change anything.
The map is not the terrain, words are not the concepts they point to.

your line of thought does not account for the actual reality of Duality

consider good-v-bad, light-v-dark. cold-v-hot... now consider Physical-v-spiritual

when i engage my brain into Alpha or Delta states. sure that is a physical, electro-chemical process,
but when i transcend into that reality and , let's say Astral Travel...my other self is actually transported to other points in time-space and into other environs of a spiritual nature...both are available to an Astral Projection
the RV (remote viewer) is interested only in other time-space locations of this present Earthly plane (scale or dimension or level as the case may be)


look up the sprectrum of influence by our 'third eye'...see:

The Hypothalamus and Pituitary Gland
Mar 20, 2003 ... It would be difficult to overstate the influence of hypothalamic and pituitary hormones over physiologic processes. The target cells for most of the ......
www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/...

also:

The Third Eye and the Pineal Gland
To activate the 'third eye' and perceive higher dimensions, the pineal gland and the pituitary body, must vibrate in unison, which is achieved through meditation ......
www.strayreality.com/lanis_strayreality/...

reply to post by darkbake



a good example of your line of thought would be the example of Poetry...

Poets carefully use language to convey flows of thought & mind and elevations of emotion to journey into the other realm or reality which coexists alongside the mundane world.

Originally posted by Toromos

Originally posted by TheJourney
I cannot claim to accurately describe the exact mechanisms behind the physical reality of thoughts and dreams.

And this is the big promissory note given by all physical reductionists. I don't know how someone can claim that all reality can by reduced to the physical, and yet at the same time not provide a sufficient explanation for this claim.

You appear to take a stance in opposition to the op; Do you believe in a non-physical aspect of reality then? Do you know how it works, or can you describe it?
I believe most of reality is non-physical. I believe that my ancestors continue to exist on some level, despite the fact that their corpses are rotting in the ground, and that their memories and experience are still accessible, and that they guide my actions. I believe that even though it has no physical existence yet, the future can be known.
Can I describe how any of that lunacy works? I'm four years in to a potentially futile attempt to do so, and I'm not even trying to be scientific about it, so for now, the answer is no. Does that stop me from believing or claiming it's true? Not for a second.

reply to post by No_man4


I'm not taking any stance at all. I'm advocating for critical thought. The op is taking a stance that reality is, at bottom, merely physical. That is the claim. But the claim is not given a sufficient explanation. The op itself says there isn't a sufficient explanation. The op goes on with some statements about wave-particle duality and the law of attraction, but it certainly doesn't elucidate the claim that all reality is physical.

There's been a lot of research trying to understand if a merely physical system, such as the brain, can generate consciousness. That is the million dollar question in neuroscience. So far, the nature of consciousness cannot be explained merely on the basis of a physical system. There are some researchers in the eliminative materialist paradigm that hold that all talks of mental states should just be eliminated or supplanted, in the way that we no longer considered people suffering from epilepsy to be possessed by demons. But simply eliminating talk of mental states does not explain them away.

Oh, fer pete's sake, of _course_ there are non-physical real things. I'll give you a biggie: information. Go look up Landauer's Principle or John Wheeler's "It From Bit" interpretation of the holographic principle. No, in fact, there's some evidence that the informational level of reality actually holds a greater existential primacy than the material (again, see the holographic principle).

It's a big idea, no doubt, but it does seem to be the case.

Given a choice between physical monism and mental monism, I think mental monism makes more sense, especially considering the facts that parapsychology sheds on psychic ability. Mind transcends time, space, matter, energy.

reply to post by TheJourney


So it's just a different physical reality.

As in ...it's just a different frequency....

I'm not sure how you mean this.

I'm not sure if people really think this one through when they say transcend the physical, as in do they mean they are just mist or nothing but still feel.

I use the term physical to mean, this very slow moving, lower frequency body suit and world, which is "waves".

However everything with Consciousness/Spirit Soul is just as physical feeling, its even more. This could be compared to a black and white insubstantial dream compared to the real worlds/realms/channels and even exiting the dream lab altogether, ie waking up back home.

As you consciousness increases in the schools and you grow in awareness, virtues love and intellect, of course would be even more real for you would see, undersand and experience more of what is in Infinity, more colors, more flavors, more notes, more depth and sensation to feelings, more understanding, more information and learning, more skills, etc etc etc.

Originally posted by No_man4

Originally posted by TheJourney
You heard it right! I am sorry to disappoint all you spiritual people out there. Everything is physical! There is no such thing as transcendence of physicality. What we call spiritual existence, or higher planes of reality, are simply more complex, and more subtle, levels of physical reality...
An update to our understanding of what 'physical' actually means demonstrates no contradiction between the physical reality of materialists and the transcendental realities of the spiritualists.

edit on 30-7-2012 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-7-2012 by TheJourney because: (no reason given)

The way you've written your post makes it sound like you're really just looking for a for a fight, and so I must say I'm sorry to disappoint you, sir and/or madam, because I won't be giving you one. What we have here is a textbook case of the "tomayto-tomahto" problem. Those phenomenon commonly referred to as "non-physical" are what they are independent of the vocabulary used to describe them. Framing them in the jargon of the reigning materialist paradigm doesn't change anything.
The map is not the terrain, words are not the concepts they point to.

I never knew too many people who have read Science and Sanity. I can't even find it in any bookstores anymore. So kudos for the Korzybski quote, even though you didn't give credit.

But as you point out, there is no such thing as a non-physical or even a physical reality—just reality. There's no need to attempt to separate it into two. If people want to believe their eyes over their feelings, then so be it. If people want to trust more in their emotions and abstractions than their senses, then so be it. But they will never be free of their own senses and feelings. So why not use both? Why make it a materialist vs idealist debate, when we are all both at the same time?

Originally posted by BlueMule
Given a choice between physical monism and mental monism, I think mental monism makes more sense, especially considering the facts that parapsychology sheds on psychic ability. Mind transcends time, space, matter, energy.

edit on 30-7-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

In order for anything to make sense, it must first employ the senses. Neither realities you mention make sense on their own because they can't. And mind cannot transcend even the body, let alone time, space and matter.