Do we really have free will?

Originally posted by juveous
The entire thread is a repeat of every other Free will vs Determinism thread asking same question

You had the free will to not state the obvious. When someone says to you, "Looks like we're in for some rain," do you say, "That comment has been made a trillion times,"?

Maybe this conversation has been done before, but not with me in it. What's old becomes new again.

You believe you are the thinker. But thought is just a 'thing' that is seen and known.
Thought cannot choose, thought is just images appearing (stories about what is not happening). The seer and knower of thought sees thought as just another appearance appearing.
If you have identified yourself to be a 'thing' or a 'thought', or the 'thinker' you cannot choose because you have wrongly identified yourself to be something that you are not. You are lost and confused in a big scary world. You have identified yourself to be a 'thing' in world full of 'things'.
When there is a belief in 'things' there will always be conflict. The human condition of suffering.

When it is seen that there is only 'being' there can be no conflict. What is happening presently is what is 'being'.
This being of this ever present isness, is all there is. There is nothing outside of this, so there are no things.

'Things' are no more than beliefs. Thinking is thinging.

All thought is based on your wrong definition of yourself. You think you are a thing that can be defined. The thought that i can choose is assuming that i can separate myself from the event. I am not separate from the event.
It is all happening as one.

The study of the brain proves that your brain makes choices instantly although you are still able to think about the choice unaware that it is already made (predetermined)...

So this automatically means that we have free-will of thought...

The brain LOCKS-ON to the choice without allowing it to be changed even if the person is still thinking about the choices and which on is better. They will always pick the choice that the brain originally picked, even though they aren't aware that it is already decided and they are still thinking thought about it and which choice should they choose!





Sometimes we can buy things not knowing that something even BETTER existed. Ignorance can hinder our free-will if we are unaware of something we can not choose it so no absolute free-will definitely...


This is the best argument that I've heard so far and it is proof that ABSOLUTE free-will can NOT exist. It still leave the door open for "preferential freewill (free-will among available choices)....

Our preferences are NOT free-will. We just see something and like it or not. I do admit that preferences can change but they are NOT free-will.

So if your preference is to HATE chocolate and LOVE vanilla and someone asks you "Chocolate or Vanillla?" do you really have free-will or was that just an illusion and it was already predetermined by the brain..


So far, the studies with neurology is saying "yes", it is predetermined and it is created by illusion of us thinking thoughts about the choice when in reality it is already made.

I have not read the whole tread, but i will give my notion on free will.
For free will to exist there must be the ability to choose, otherwise free will is a bit of nonsence.
We can choose so there is free will, we have a free will.
But when it comes to life and relation between one another, there can be none or should be none, if there is choice, it means division, being divided.
That division between one another is the root of all violence.

Originally posted by akushla99
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

"For one thing, we have free will with limitations. We are limited in what we can do as humans, so really, at the most, we have only human free will."

I'm not sure we even have human free will. Consider identical twins that have been separated at birth. Now, I'm too tired to do the research so I will only write what I have heard many times over the years. Many of these twins (though they have never even met) end up at the same college and have relatively the same course of study. This is how they finally meet, and discover that they have more alike than not alike.

Their life choices are uncannily similar. So, how can this be free will if twins are predestined to make the same choices?

Originally posted by earthling42
For free will to exist there must be the ability to choose, otherwise free will is a bit of nonsence.
We can choose so there is free will, we have a free will.

You didn't prove whether we are actually choosing or if it is an illusion as neurologists are now realizing.

For there to be the ability to choose there must be a 'chooser'.
Can you find the one that chooses?
Locate the one who decides.

youtu.be...

reply to post by Itisnowagain


The people who actually work with the brain KNOWS that the brain is making the choices even though we confuse ourselves with thought. It's simple.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

The people who actually work with the brain KNOWS that the brain is making the choices even though we confuse ourselves with thought. It's simple.

You can look to see where the 'thought' appears directly. Speaking about 'brain specialists' looking at a screen with an image of a brain cannot determine where thought appears or how it appears, or from where it appears and where it goes when it is no more..
You are the knower of thought. A brain specialist might see something but he does not experience the texture of thought, only you can do that.

Is the brain choosing to beating your heart? Or is your brain only working because it is recieving blood from a heart that is beating?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Obviously you didn't watch the video I linked.

Also, yes they can study AND see our thoughts. We have that technology to see what another person is seeing in their brain.

Source

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Is the brain choosing to beating your heart? Or is your brain only working because it is recieving blood from a heart that is beating?

The brain stem sends electrical impulses to your heart that make the cells in your heart contract, producing a heart beat. These impulses are controlled unconsciously, so you do not have to think about making your heart beat, nor can you consciously stop your heart from beating.

reply to post by arpgme


So what are 'you'?
That is why i said 'for a choice to be possible there has to be a chooser'.
Can you find the chooser?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


The brain makes the heart beat through electrical impulses.

As for what is causes the brain to make the decisions:

“Your decisions are strongly prepared by brain activity. By the time consciousness kicks in, most of the work has already been done,”

- John-Dylan Haynes, a Max Planck Institute neuroscientist.

Here is another great video:



EDIT:

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by arpgme

 

So what are 'you'?
That is why i said 'for a choice to be possible there has to be a chooser'.
Can you find the chooser?

edit on 28-4-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

If we are talking about PHYSICAL Free-Will, then we must associate ourselves with our PHYSICAL being (The body/Brain).

We are talking about whether we have free-will over our PHYSICAL being (where we PHYSICALLY go in life and our PHYSICAL actions)...


And the Brain activity already chooses what you will do BEFORE your CONSCIOUSNESS does. This is proven fact. Even the neurologist who actually did the study says "it is deterministic". This is not one study but many.

reply to post by arpgme


The brain does not make the heart beat. The heart beats independently.

reply to post by arpgme


Consciousness is 'conscious' of mind activity (thought).
Everything appears within consciousness. If you were not conscious would there be any 'thing' appearing?
Thought is an appearance within consciousness.

reply to post by smithjustinb


um,

Free will is a good thing. You are able to do as much as you can. Your choice to do so or not is what makes it your will. If there was just a set of orders form on top then society would not exist. The world has reached this point of development not due to good orders that are harmonious or whatever. It has become what it has because there have been sources of new and innovative ideas and philosophies. If like, your leaders tell you the catholic church is correct then we wouldn't have science for the most part. If your leaders told you that only some people are good then there wouldn't be Jews. If your leaders were completely in charge of your life you would be a slave.

Free will and manifest destiny are the sources of humanities greatest achievements. But hey if you want to live in poverty and under the constant whip, then fine, surrender to "higher" powers. I and most people would like to continue thinking for ourselves and growing as people and individuals. That is the only harmony we need. Social cohesion and progress.

reply to post by arpgme


You have misidentified yourself to be a body/mind.
I know i am the seer and knower of a body and a mind. The body/mind is the play of life, maya, lila. I am not the play. I am the knower of the play.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by arpgme

 

The brain does not make the heart beat. The heart beats independently.

No, the brain stem does it. We know the exact area that does it too, it is called the medulla oblongata which is the lower portion of the brain stem

reply to post by arpgme


Go online and you will find that the heart beats independantly.
So.. what are you?

Find the 'chooser' before deciding if there is freewill or not.

You are dead on, we have limited free will which is no free-will.

We must work within the constraints of this reality. Dreams are thoughts and can be manifest but in this world it takes alot of work and time. I can say I want to build sky scrapers I can't do it tomorrow but I can get myself on the path towards doing it. Say you wanted to end poverty you could work in the field of social work while big politics decides your fate.

What we have is mere choice this or that but we all must play the game that was given us.