Ex-CIA Officer Who Destroyed Waterboarding Videos: Torturers "Disgusted" at Being Labeled "Tortur

reply to post by kn0wh0w


It isn't really like that at all. You should consider your data on a case level.
Each case being different. A case by case basis would suffice.
Stay on target.
Best to you in fairness,

Originally posted by clintdelicious
The most successful nazi interrogator Hanns Scharff treated POW's very well and didn't harm them at all. Need we say anymore about torture?

You are correct this is the best method to get information from US POW's. You are very much forgetting cultural differences. Arabic men are not motivated by weakness. American men are.

Originally posted by clintdeliciousWaterboarding IS torture. It is the same a suffocating someone. It makes you feel like you are going to drown and die.

No you will not die from waterboarding you will only feel like you are going to. It makes you feel like you are suffocating while in fact you are not. This is why we do it to our guys in training so they know what it feels like and that they won’t die.

Originally posted by clintdelicious When it is being done you don't know if they will let you drown or will by mistake drown you. If making someone think that they may die isn't a form of torture then I don't know what is.

Not now - now everyone knows about it and it’s therefore almost useless as a method. The best tool an interrogator has is the uncertainty of the subject; however, now that our Commander in Chief has taken that uncertainty away threat of or the implication of action is no longer enough. The hard core enemies are therefore sent to foreign countries that have no reservation about loping off fingers or lips - you really think this is better than the implication or threat of action.

Originally posted by clintdeliciousAnd all those who say that it isn't are either brainwashed, stupid or on the governments payroll.

Those who don't see its utility can still live safely under the protection these techniques provide by those who do.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
reply to post by kn0wh0w

 

He is ex-CIA and he wrote a book.

He is trying to sell his book. He would not be allowed to publish this book if the CIA was unaware of it. Therefore, this book should be considered CIA propaganda, censored by the CIA and full of CIA bull # from cover to cover.

Not how it works. CIA redacts, what is left is simply not redacted and does not mean that the remainder is CIA "propaganda".

Originally posted by daaskapital
Waterboarding has been proven many times to be an "effective torturing technique."

And, i would think that they would waterboard someone for more than 10 minutes.

If the worse I had to worry about if I were captured was waterboarding, I'd sleep soundly in my cell every night.

Originally posted by Golf66

This is ridiculous; what we do in the US is not torture.

Some things should stay safely out of the venue of public opinion - interrogation and intelligence collection are some of those things. The general public hasn't the experiance, qualification or stomach to make decisions in this area. Leave it to the professionals please.

I won't be as nice as the mods. Quite frankly your opinion makes me sick. Some decisions shouldn't be made by anyone, namely those that involve deliberately inflicting pain on another person, for any reason.

Try to justify it as much as you like by saying its about extracting intelligence. That's BS, its about asserting dominance over another human, keeping them helpless while you take a sick pleasure in inflicting pain on them. Its called Sadism, look it up.

The fact there is an entire section of the military replete with codes and training built up around torture is just more evidence that there is something very wrong with our world.

Its even more disturbing that your argument revolves around letting the US do it, because if you can't then you'll just sell off a torture contract to other people who won't be as "nice". How about just not doing it, fixing your own back yard and not pissing in everyone else's?

I mean, I mean my god...I don't believe in eye for an eye, but I can't say it would be a bad thing for the world if some torturers got a bit of their own medicine. And I mean some real torture, not the preview they gave you in training. I think your opinion of it would change quite rapidly.

Originally posted by signal2noiseIf the worse I had to worry about if I were captured was waterboarding, I'd sleep soundly in my cell every night.

Yes because I hear feeling like you are drowning and going to die is a really pleasant experience.

/boggle

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by kn0wh0w

Ex-CIA Officer Who Destroyed Waterboarding Videos: Torturers "Disgusted" at Being Labeled "Torturers"

www.commondreams.org

Former CIA officer, Jose Rodriguez on waterboarding tape destruction: ‘Just getting rid of some ugly visuals’

The former CIA officer who ordered the destruction of videotaped interrogations which showed the torture of Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Nashiri in a secret CIA prison in Thailand in 2002, says he did so because he worried about the global repercussions if the footage leaked out and wanted to get "rid of some ugly visuals.”

(visit the link for the full news article)

The mentally deranged NEVER believe they are actually doing wrong.

The psychology of these people leads them to believe that they can do anything they want to any Human, they just need to be able to claim it was for the "greater good".
Hitler believed he was acting for the "greater good" too.

This sick individual is no different to any other psychopath who devalues Human life as a career choice.

I find it hard to believe that an Intelligence Officer would be "mentally deranged."

While waterboarding is torture, and i consider it to be so, more times than not, if it is actually helping in pre-emptive defence, than i'm all for it.

Originally posted by daaskapital

I find it hard to believe that an Intelligence Officer would be "mentally deranged."

While waterboarding is torture, and i consider it to be so, more times than not, if it is actually helping in pre-emptive defence, than i'm all for it.

To the crux.

Your wife pregnant with your child is overseas working in a war zone, hot on Al-Queda's list for a suicide bombing. CIA captures a known Al-Q operative.

Waterboard? Tickle his feet? Something in between? Nothing?

Your call.

reply to post by daaskapital


I have come to believe that the term "pre-emptive defence" is 'newspeak' for assault, attack, aggression, and the like

You cannot preemptively defend against the unknown... therefore to claim "preemptive defense" you must claim to KNOW what you are defending from... if you KNOW - you needn't 'extract' ... if you don't KNOW it's called "suspicion."

Our problem seems to be that we are willing to accept 'newspeak' at face value....

"Torturing on suspicion" is what they do... tell me... how do you 'fail' at that? We all know how (and who claims) to succeed at it... but how do you "fail?" It's a magical career path... not being able to fail.

reply to post by Maxmars


As i said, waterboarding is torture, and i oppose it. If the Intel Agencies recieve vital information that will lead to pre-emptive defensive measures then i feel it is justified. For example:

If an intel agency found someone of suspicion (with enough warranted evidence) and took them in for waterboarding, and it just so happens that he confirmed a plan of his to blow up a train, then i feel it was justifued.

More likely than not an Intel Agency would have enough sufficient evidence to percieve the target as a threat.

All this being said, i still oppose waterboarding.

Originally posted by signal2noise

Originally posted by daaskapital
Waterboarding has been proven many times to be an "effective torturing technique."

And, i would think that they would waterboard someone for more than 10 minutes.

If the worse I had to worry about if I were captured was waterboarding, I'd sleep soundly in my cell every night.

Ahhh yes, that is quite easy to say sitting in your home, with your computer, you food, your luxuries.

Its fun to talk about how easy these things are when you arent actually facing them, isnt it?

reply to post by captaintyinknots


While not directed at me, I must add...

Don;t be so hasty to think there are not those here who know intimately, that which you think is only applicable to you. Not everyone who goes to highly specialized training and then to the field is inclined to express agreement or dissent ... even if some are.

There are many among us here at ATS who are not just some 'schmoe' surfing the web for kicks. Not everyone who writes and struggles to research is just some momentarily curious and inexperienced sheep. I often see comments like that and almost never get the chance to say... you might be surprised who you and I and the rest of "we" are here at ATS. Although I hate to generalize, we have something in common, most of us are NOT ignorant sheep.

Originally posted by AlchemicalBinoculars

Originally posted by daaskapital

I find it hard to believe that an Intelligence Officer would be "mentally deranged."

While waterboarding is torture, and i consider it to be so, more times than not, if it is actually helping in pre-emptive defence, than i'm all for it.

To the crux.

Your wife pregnant with your child is overseas working in a war zone, hot on Al-Queda's list for a suicide bombing. CIA captures a known Al-Q operative.

Waterboard? Tickle his feet? Something in between? Nothing?

Your call.

That is the kind of scenario that comes out of the pages of a poorly written spy novel. Nice try.
The first thing you need to understand that "Jose Rodriguez" is not his real name.


CIA alias "Jose Rodriguez" has published a book, described by Dana Priest of the Washington Post,

“Hard Measures” takes readers through a highly sanitized — censored by the CIA, actually — version of events. Source www.washingtonpost.com... .html

Rodriguez may have never felt the need to even reveal himself publicly or to write a book, complete with family photos,... Source www.washingtonpost.com... .html

Would CIA allow "Jose Rodriguez" to put his family pictures in his new book? What a dumb idea to put his family at risk. Today's facial recognition software can immediately identify any of those people to a high degree of accuracy.

He was as surprised as anyone that he had risen so quickly to the senior ranks after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, according to the account of his decades-long spy career in “Hard Measures: How Aggressive CIA Actions After 9/11 Saved American Lives.” The book is due out Monday, after an exclusive interview Sunday night on CBS’s “60 Minutes.” The Washington Post obtained a copy this week. Source www.washingtonpost.com... .html

And this is how he looks today. Same actor? Fake name? Fake family pictures? Fake stories? Fake book? Yes.


Source www.cbsnews.com...

Remember everybody, the title of his book is "“Hard Measures: How Aggressive CIA Actions After 9/11 Saved American Lives.”"

And remember that "Jose Rodriguez" is not his real name.

And remember he included pictures of his family in his CIA book.

The CIA censored his book.

But the CIA allowed him to publish pictures of his family.

The whole deal is B*S* from cover to cover.

The CIA pseudonym "Jose Rodriguez" explains to Dana Priest of the Washington Post :

While dismantling the site, the base chief asked Rodriguez if she could throw a pile of old videotapes, made during the early days of terrorist Abu Zubaida’s interrogation and waterboarding, and now a couple of years old, onto a nearby bonfire that was set to destroy papers and other evidence of the agency’s presence. Source www.washingtonpost.com... _1.html

So, the base chief is a she. Well that really narrows it down.

To kn0wh0w the OP: My estimation is that this book is the product of a CIA ghost writer.

"Jose Rodriguez" will be appearing on 60 Minutes this week. Interview on Sunday, April 29 at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Ahhh yes, that is quite easy to say sitting in your home, with your computer, you food, your luxuries.

Its fun to talk about how easy these things are when you arent actually facing them, isnt it?

Ah, yes, it's easy to run your suck when you don't have a clue about the person that posted that, huh?

Sorry, Slick, but I've been waterboarded in SERE school. It was a lot easier to deal than having my nose broken.

reply to post by signal2noise


I know I would rather be weterboarded for a few minutes rather than have my nose broken

Originally posted by signal2noise

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Ahhh yes, that is quite easy to say sitting in your home, with your computer, you food, your luxuries.

Its fun to talk about how easy these things are when you arent actually facing them, isnt it?

Ah, yes, it's easy to run your suck when you don't have a clue about the person that posted that, huh?

Sorry, Slick, but I've been waterboarded in SERE school. It was a lot easier to deal than having my nose broken.

I was waterboarded and some other things that take place at a few levels above SERE C that are a little worse. None of them pleasant. However, I wouldn't call any of it torture. No limbs/appendages lost, some bruises and scrapes and a little nausea here and there... And I leave - go home and sleep fine.

I broke my neck on a HALO jump - walked off the DZ with a combat loaded ruck, continued mission (meeting with local chieftain) rode a horse about 20 miles though the mountains. Every bump was excruciating. Didn't know neck was broken till 3 weeks later after getting an mri.

There are worse things than the humiliation and manipulation we use on our enemies we inflict more torture on our on soldiers in training, especially for Ranger and SF untis than we will ever inflict on a POW. That's just a fact. I find it hard to feel for them.

Originally posted by Golf66I was waterboarded and some other things that take place at a few levels above SERE C that are a little worse. None of them pleasant. However, I wouldn't call any of it torture. No limbs/appendages lost, some bruises and scrapes and a little nausea here and there... And I leave - go home and sleep fine.

Well its great that you got to go home and have a nice rest. I hear that sleep depravation is part of real torture. I also hear you don't get to go home during indefinite stays in detention. Not to mention being tortured multiple times per day over multiple days, not knowing when it will end. I expect you know all about the psychological effects induced in victims of torture, and how your training doesn't come close to the very real fear those victims would be experiencing (by definition of knowing its just training).

So can we stop talking about your training as though its comparable to actual torture?

Its telling your criteria for torture is having parts of you cut off, as though anything and everything besides that is fine. I'm no expert (thankfully), but my understanding is that its the long term psychological effects that are the most damaging.

I find it hard to feel for them.

And who do you feel for? Can you even feel at all anymore?

Since this has become about people claiming to know the experience saying it's not torture; I will confess... I was never water boarded. It simply wasn't done... and not even discussed.

But of course that was a long time ago (think eruption of Mt. St. Helens time-frame.)

What I did learn however was that if you don't think what you're being subjected to isn't torture... then it isn't.

Not because the act isn't torture; but because you can't 'train' someone in being tortured... it sort of like being almost pregnant... or "sort of" killed. It is either be taken down the one-way street to torture... or you never were tortured.

Torture is about the effect on the subject... not the "perceptions" of the person administering the torture.

I find it absolutely fascinating that there are those who experience water boarding (or even just witness it) and will not concede as to the nature of the practice. Amazing thing training, isn't it?