Miss Universe and Transgendered Contestants: A Tricky Social Issue

a millions years from now, and transgender human bones were recovered from a dig, sent to the lab for identification what would the results be...?

reply to post by Legion2024


That would depend on when they started hormone treatment..

If they start it in their teen years? They're going to look entirely female in most cases.


the only thing which really defines male from female is the hip bones.. everything else is respective.

reply to post by Partygirl


Wouldn't it be kind of like letting a baseball player use steroids to win a tournament, letting a contestant use hormones and drugs to appear like a woman, thus more beautiful, in a beauty contest?

I am completely accepting, but they technically aren't real women, though admittedly she looks like a real and beautiful woman. Hopefully one day people wont be so uptight and there will be a beauty contest for transgendered people so we don't have to waste news stories.

This is all about an ego boost for this one person, they want to beat out real women. Obviously this transwoman is more glamorous and even more attractive than a lot of women, but they shouldn't have to change the rules.

Nothing 'tricky' about this... if people have an open mind.

The facts are:
- 'brain sex' determines a person's gender, not the genitals
- transgender people are what they are in heart and mind, irrespective of physiology
- transgender people are usually on intensive HRT and have no 'advantage'; especially in the case of beauty pageants, over their Botox bloated mannequin competitors
- transgender people are often far more male / female than their biological counterparts for the simple reason they do not take the trait of gender for granted

There are indeed transgender specific beauty contests, like Thailand's Miss Tiffany pageant. However, if a TG girl has undergone full SRS ('the snip'), there is no logical reason why she could not compete in a traditional female contest. I'd even argue SRS is not necessary.

After all, these are beauty not biology pageants!

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
Wouldn't it be kind of like letting a baseball player use steroids to win a tournament, letting a contestant use hormones and drugs to appear like a woman, thus more beautiful, in a beauty contest?

It would not because the drugs used are to counteract the effects of male testosterone and have little effect on the actual 'look' of the contestant (beyond making them more feminine).

That is, it's the make-up, dress, plastic surgery(!) that makes these girls look the way they do--services available to both TG and vanilla females.

If you were to outlaw the use of any form of augmentation - be it make-up, Botox or the like - then there might be an argument against the inclusion of TG girls. But what beauty contest has girls that look as though they just woke up?!

It's all superficial, fake crap in the end. Discriminating against transgender girls is not only unfair, but laughable given the context.

In my opinion to each his own, that being said, i do not think a man who changed his sex should be allowed to participate. You can look like a woman but until you can get pregnant and have a monthly cycle youre not a woman. Its the MISS universe.

reply to post by OdalisWhitaker

If it is the Miss Universe - say alien lady beings arrive would they be permitted to enter and if so on what premise would beauty be judged

Originally posted by prisoneronashipoffools
but I don't think Paradox will care and will call it anecdotal evidence. Much easier for him to throw out your claim that way, even though it blatantly contradicts his stance.

It's easy to throw out the claim because it IS anecdotal.

After all he has his "degree" which he has confused with being a certificate meaning he is always right.

You have yet to provide any evidence to counter the facts I have stated. Until then, I think it's fair to say that your emotional rants have no purpose other than taking up bandwidth.

Though I will take the time now to say Paradox should definitely have a degree in after post editing, with the amount of changes they made after the fact.

Would you mind pointing out what these changes are?

edit on 3-4-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typos

edit on 3-4-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

edit on 3-4-2012 by prisoneronashipoffools because: typo

Originally posted by OdalisWhitaker
You can look like a woman but until you can get pregnant and have a monthly cycle youre not a woman. Its the MISS universe.

So, shouldn't it be renamed 'Miss Fertility Universe' then? ...And the contest updated to include a 'Shag Section' where men are invited in to 'test' the contestants' ability to conceive?

reply to post by InsideYourMind


This is what you are claiming...Gender is not defined by genetics or organs. But by the mental state a person is in. You then go and use animals which is a strange comparison as animals have no grasp on morality. They act mainly on instinct and immediate stimulation. Do you really want to compare yourself to an animal when proving your point? I can come right back and say nature is cruel do to new Lion pack leaders that will kill the offspring of the former pack leader.

This is what genetics says about your argument, a person is born with either XX or XY. Yes that is not wholly true there are some genetic diseases where people are born with more than one of the sex chromosome. For example, Klinefelters is XXY but is still considered a male by genetics due to the Y. Or, XXX which is still considered to be a female due to the X chromosome. So yes, a gender is defined based upon what chromosomes a person has and what they have for reproductive organs.

Take this man for example, he may have a vagina and breasts possibly. So he will look like a woman, but will never have a period nor will ever have the possibility to get pregnant. And before you throw out the overused argument about infertile women not being considered women, yes I would still consider them women because they have at least two X sex chromosomes. Gender will never be defined by what a person feels they are, it will always be determined by chromosomes.

reply to post by Miraj


Male bones are also usually larger, so are on average the muscles of men. No I am not being sexist with that last statement. Men are physiologically larger and heavier in bone and muscle than women. But your right the pubic arch angle is different in women and men. Women have a 120 degree arch and men have a 90 degree arch.

reply to post by denynothing


Right, but Klinefelter's is no longer thought to be just males. That was an old belief in the medical system because.. you know the patients looked like males. However, technically they have more X Chromosomes than Y. So by pure logic wouldn't they be more female than male?

I also wonder about some of the people here.. Do you all seriously meet someone new, and then think about their genitals? I mean, if you meet a woman. Do you really sit there and think about her vagina and that makes you think of her as a woman? And for the sake of the scenario, there is no sexual interest.

reply to post by denynothing



Right, but that doesn't mean they are male or female. Those are simply tendencies. They wouldn't know how to evaluate muscle since by the time these bones were dug up, the muscle would long be decayed.

Also, after some time, a transgendered person's bones probably would be thinner, less dense since bones are shaped constantly and sex hormones are a factor in that. The only thing that wouldn't change is of course the pubic arch which I mentioned. However, if they had been on HRT from an early age, that would probably be more akin to a females pubic bones and not a males. (Just as Transmen that take testosterone earlier have a tendency to grow than they would have without.)

reply to post by Miraj


I didn't know that Klinefelters has become a multi-sex disorder, I took genetics class 3 years ago with brand new books and we still talked about Klinefelters being a male only disorder. Care to some research out of sheer curiosity?

You are right and wrong about the logic statement, with no understanding a person could look at XXY and think more female than male. Which is expressed in the phenotype of the sufferers. However the laws of genetics are pretty cut and dry when it comes to sex chromosomes. Y=male, X=female, as those are each the last chromosomes in the pair 23 genotype. So logically using the rule of genetics no one could not assume what you are trying to say.

reply to post by paradox


ok paradox, useing clifnotes for and actual fact is not fact, tell me who did that study and when


heres a good study and experiment by psychologist named john money, he failed horribly cuz he belived what you do, heres the history of what this man did to david reimer......................



en.wikipedia.org...

john money worked at john hopkins university, this was a very sad story of how a psychologist belived how a childs sexual identity is environmental and not psychological, he FAILED and david reimer comitted suicide

reply to post by paradox


CHECK MATE, GAME SET AND MATCH!!!

unfortunatly it took the death of another human being to prove the doctor wrong

Originally posted by carabao
Jenna Talacova Can compete in Miss Universe

reply to post by Partygirl

 

From the article:

"The Miss Universe Organization will allow Jenna Talackova to compete in the 2012 Miss Universe Canada pageant provided she meets the legal gender recognition requirements of Canada, and the standards established by other international competitions,"

A source tells PEOPLE that the Miss Universe Organization "is extending invitation/waiver to Jenna, and they're working on full inclusion for future contestants for 2013."

Case closed, even though I will never understand why anyone would want to be a contestant in any miss or mr competition

edit on 3-4-2012 by carabao because: (no reason given)

canada....

go figure.

The west is definately turning to crap.

Next they'll expect us to open doors for the shemales and stand when they enter the room.

reply to post by denynothing


It changed as did the standards of care regarding intersex people.
This was a recent change.

reply to post by viperdave


Not just David comitted suicide.

But remember his brother did too. He suffered from Schizophrenia later in life, presumably after what John Money put those kids through.. Messed up.

Originally posted by Darkinin
Ultimately your genetics determine whether you're male or female, or the color of your hair, eyes, etc. Now tell me, does this person still have a Y chromosome or two floating around in its body? The fact of the matter is that the person in question was born with an XY combination, and is therefor a man, and unless he can prove otherwise, he shouldn't be allowed to run around, legally recognized as not being so.

I honestly believe that any person who thinks they're actually a women but is physically a man, or vice versa, is mentally ill, as they believe in things that aren't real, just as my grandma always thought that the aliens were after her, and subsequently locked herself in her room 24/7, with towels pinned around the windows and stuffed in the spaces under the doors.

To put it straight (no pun intended), it would be more fitting to claim that those who cannot accept a human's choice to dress and look a specific way would be the ones who are "mentally ill".

People who cannot respect and accept other peoples choices are the root of the problem.

Besides what has dress-code got to do with gender anyway, what has that got to do with evolution or nature? Maybe if history went a different way we would all be running around with long hair in the nude... even so people would still complain "oh lord this isn't right". Some men even grow breasts without hormonal treatment (not just fat either).

It's down to people being close-minded. If you believe somebody is mentally ill because of "yourself" judging their actions, then it's a bit hypocritical, especially in this day and age.

reply to post by Miraj


yes i read that too,there are lots od studys done all over the world about transgenderism we all want to know "why" im sure you can find all kinds of studys done countering what i belive , that people are born in the wrong bodys


theres even a guy out here on the west coast that says he can cure being gay, im sure most people can be brain washed into being not gay


paradox belives what he wants to, everbody does and i actualy respect the fact he has been on this site since 2003, longer then most people here, if he has a degree, good for him, if he can prove what he says then maybe it can help prevent the horrible things transgender people go through, untill that time there are too many case studys that says he not entirely right, im not say hes completely wrong, but i have known many TG people and know how they grew up and i belive its something your born with not a product of your environment



be safe people