A Lesson in Jumping to Conclusions (the Trayvon Martin shooting)

Guys if he wanted to he could of just shot him as soon as they got in a "good" spot...but he didnt, he obviously confronted him or followed him enough for the young man to notice and confront him, they got into an altercation and Zimmerman got assaulted, there is no way he would take the chance of this as there was a good chance Trayvon could of taken the gun from him and ended up the other way around. So again there are still too many facts we dont know about this and we need to let it play out to learn more, but the fact Zimmerman took some shots to the head proves he was not just already planning on shooting him or he would have before it got to this point.

And the way the black community is handling this is worse than what you guys are claiming Zimmerman was acting on. Being upset and sad is one thing, but I do not get why all these so called black leaders have not been rounded up for inciting a riot and revenge murder, Spike Lee should be sued for all he has for putting out the wrong address, etc. But no , they will exploit this as they already have, regardless of Zimmerman's guilt. Its gotten so bad now, even if they had 100% video with sound of this incident, they would not apologize and would still rant and rave just like the rest of you that have already condemned Zimmerman. If hes guilty I hope he hangs, but I cant see the possibility of a fair trial and so far charges still have not been filed against him. The black community has turned this into if you dont convict him no matter what we will riot or kill him. We all know 2 wrongs make a right......

Whatever happened this Zimmerman dude will never get a fair trial. Labeled racist from the go.

The only true racist i see are the Black Panthers and all of their cronies calling for his death and for someone to kill "the cracker".

Hate breeds hate.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Zimmerman has not been arrested. This is where race comes in.

No. Zimmerman has not been arrested and charged because there has to be enough evidence of a crime for the case to be able to go to a jury before he can be charged. The police have to do their investigation in order to work out the facts. People can't be arrested willy-nilly or based on mob-mentality. What would he be arrested for? Murder? Manslaughter? Stupidity? The facts aren't in so there can be no charging him.

Are you aware how the legal system in this country works?

Apparently better than you do.

I agree there is spin and hype, but I'm calling for equal treatment under the law.

No. What you are calling for is rule by mob mentality. Police aren't supposed to go arresting people based on spin and hype and political posturing. It's supposed to be based on EVIDENCE. When (if) there is enough evidence to take the case to a jury, THEN they will arrest and charge him. People can't be arrested and charged without cause. The case takes time to build.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by dreamstalker

 

When do you think it may be Necessary? a 6'2" Guy in a Hoodie who you suspected was up to no good jumps from the bushes and knocks you to the ground and starts smashing your head on the concrete, and is now trying to get your weapon, I think if this was happening to me, in the heat of the moment if I got a chance I would squeeze one off too, sounds like a him or me situation, with only one winner or in Zimmerman's case, one loser.

We don't know if that's what really happened. If I had a fat guy with a gun harassing me, I just might knock him down, too. This thread is about people jumping to conclusions. You've jumped to yours.

I keep seeing people say the Zimmerman harassed or threatened Trayvon with his gun, this is a BIG conclution to jump to. No where in the news or police info has anything like this been stated. In fact, based on the facts we know, the gun likely came out during the scuffle and thats when it went off.

Originally posted by MrH191
Whatever happened this Zimmerman dude will never get a fair trial. Labeled racist from the go.

Very true. If he's innocent and they let him go free someone will kill him because of all the hype and spin. If he's guilty and sentenced, many will decide he was found guilty because of the hype and spin and that he didn't get a fair trial. The jury could easily feel pressure to find him more guilty than he is in order to appease the race baiters. A fair trial will always be in question now ... because of the hype and spin and the premature calls to arrest him 'just because'.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I'm not jumping to the conclusion that Zimmerman is innocent. Did you read the thread?
I'm saying that the initial 'facts' showed him to be very guilty. But now there are new 'facts'
that show him to be very innocent.

No they don't. No new news changes the FACT.

FACT: A Vigilante (taking law into your own hands) created and escalated a situation that resulted in a death.

When people can be arrested ...

Legal Rights

You can be arrested without a warrant if the police have reason to believe that you have committed or are about to commit: (1) a felony whether or not in their presence; (2) a misdemeanor in their presence; (3) a misdemeanor not in their presence if they have reason to believe you may escape, cause injury to persons or property, or destroy evidence unless immediately arrested. Without your consent or special circumstances, you cannot be arrested in your home without a warrant.

You can also be arrested without a warrant for traffic violations, including: driving or attempting to drive while intoxicated or under the influence of alcohol or drugs; failing to stop or give information in the event of an accident causing death, bodily injury or property damage; driving or attempting to drive on a suspended or revoked license; fleeing or attempting to elude police officers; or when the police reasonably believe you will disregard a traffic citation

World Law Direct

1. You may be arrested by a police officer who personally saw you violate any statute, city ordinance, or federal law. The law may be a serious crime (a felony) or a lesser offense (a misdemeanor). The important thing is that the officer sees the violation.

If the charge is a minor traffic offense, the law requires the officer to just ticket you (that is, give you a citation which orders you to appear in court later), rather than arrest you. However, if you refuse to sign the citation, or refuse to identify yourself, or if it appears to the officer that you are in need of medical attention, then he can arrest you on this minor traffic offense.

2. You may be arrested for a felony, even if the police officer did not personally see you commit the felony, so long as the officer had "probable cause" to believe that the crime was committed by you. Later, the court system (not the police) will determine if the officer was reasonable in that belief and if you are guilty or innocent

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Zimmerman has not been arrested and charged because there has to be enough evidence of a crime for the case to be able to go to a jury before he can be charged.

A policeman doesn't get to decide if there's enough evidence for a conviction. That's not his job. His job was to arrest an admitted killer (possible crime) and proceed from there. If someone breaks into my house and I kill them, they're not just going to take my word for it. An investigation has to happen.It all starts with an arrest report.

Source

People can't be arrested and charged without cause.

I guess it's a matter of opinion whether or not a dead body, an admitted killer and the 911 tapes are "cause" or not...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by FlyersFan
There is a pattern all over the country of black men being killed. ...

"

And the killers are arrested, tried and convicted.

"

You assume that the killers are arrested tried and convicted. I'm sure there are tons of black on black killings out there that are unsolved. Putting the statement in bold does not make it fact.

Your avatar is as ludicrous as the overreaction from the media, our POS president, and the black community.

Originally posted by Annee
FACT: A Vigilante (taking law into your own hands) created and escalated a situation that resulted in a death.

The new 'facts' say just the opposite. And in a few days .. other 'facts' will come out that back up what you just said. Then a few days later more 'facts' will come out disputing those 'facts'. You still don't get it ... WE DO NOT KNOW what happened because there is too much spin and hype.

Your post for example. Calling him a vigilante. That's not a 'fact'. At this point it's your opinion based on the hype and spin and political posturing. He was a neighborhood watchman. As for him being a 'vigilante' .. that has yet to be determined. There are too many conflcting reports.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Annee
FACT: A Vigilante (taking law into your own hands) created and escalated a situation that resulted in a death.

The new 'facts' say just the opposite.

NO they don't.

Zimmerman broke every rule of being an observer.

Zimmerman created the situation and escalated the situation that caused everything else to transpire.

Hi you all,
I know I am a little late to the debate but has anyone
posted or made reference to this?


Bernhard Goetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz - Similarto Bernhard Goetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following similar shooting sequence is from Bernie Goetz's website: "I decided to shoot as many as I could as quickly as I could. I did a fast draw, and shot ...

Early life - Historical context - Incident - Early reports



Sounds quite simular unless I am mistaken.
Hope it helps ljb

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
A policeman doesn't get to decide if there's enough evidence for a conviction. That's not his job. His job was to arrest an admitted killer (possible crime) and proceed from there.

You've got it wrong. Go back and read what I posted about when a person can be arrested (one or two posts back). Zimmerman isn't an 'admitted killer'. That's loaded language. If he was an 'admitted killer' he'd be in custody and charged. He said that there was a shooting but there were circumstances for it. That's VERY different then what yuou are pumping out. There is an investigation going on. If the investigation reveals that there is enough evidence to go to a jury, then they will arrest him. Generally when an investigation is going at this level on they won't issue an arrest warrent for someone unless the police dept feels there is enough to go to a grandjury with. (that's what I was told) Until then .. he is an innocent man in the eyes of the law and won't be arrested arbitrarily.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Annee
FACT: A Vigilante (taking law into your own hands) created and escalated a situation that resulted in a death.

The new 'facts' say just the opposite.

NO they don't. Zimmerman broke every rule of being an observer.
Zimmerman created the situation and escalated the situation that caused everything else to transpire.

.. says the 'facts' that you are listening to, while ignoring the 'facts' that say the opposite.
And I say 'facts' with quotes around them because we have no idea if the 'facts' are true or not.
Hey .. keep talking .. you are proving my point beautifully.

My predicton - he'll be charged and convicted of involuntary manslaughter .. and then .. because of all this hype and spin ... some yutz will try to make a name for him/her self and will 'take him out'.

reply to post by FlyersFan


He admitted to shooting Trayvon. That is not in question, is it?

Ergo, admitted killer is the appropriate language.

(Also there is enough to go to a grand jury with.. so.. why no arrest yet?)

Originally posted by FlyersFan

.. says the 'facts' that you are listening to, while ignoring the 'facts' that say the opposite.
And I say 'facts' with quotes around them because we have no idea if the 'facts' are true or not.
Hey .. keep talking .. you are proving my point beautifully.

So you are saying Zimmerman did not go beyond observing a person he was suspicious of?

Are you saying Zimmerman stayed in his car - called 911 - - and waited for them to arrive?

Is that what you are saying?

Originally posted by christine76
You assume that the killers are arrested tried and convicted.

No. Not assuming. I've researched it. When a black man kills someone, he's arrested. Most times, he's convicted, whether he is guilty or not.

Your avatar is as ludicrous as the overreaction from the media, our POS president, and the black community.

Thank you. That's the idea. I hope other members follow suit. I am happy to be calling for the arrest of Zimmerman and to be compared to the president and the black community in this matter. Something needs to change. PEOPLE should be arrested when they kill someone... especially when there is probable cause to think a crime was committed.

Originally posted by Furbs
He admitted to shooting Trayvon. That is not in question, is it?
Ergo, admitted killer is the appropriate language.

Killer definition via Mrriam Webster Dictionary
It's loaded language. 'admitted killer'? Would someone who defended himself or his family with a gun from a murderer breaking in be called an 'admitted killer'?? If a black man was at home and had to shoot an intruder, and the intruder died, would you call him an 'admitted killer'? I don't think so. Loaded language. Part of the hype.

Originally posted by Annee
So you are saying Zimmerman did not go beyond observing a person he was suspicious of?
Are you saying Zimmerman stayed in his car - called 911 - - and waited for them to arrive?
Is that what you are saying?

No ... that's what I think he should have done.
But what I'm saying is the facts are not all in.
You are quoting one set of 'facts' that says one thing.
Others are quoting a set of 'facts' that says something else.
I SAY - let the police figure it out and WAIT FOR THEM to come up with a charge for the fella.

QUESTION #1: Did Zimmerman observe - stay in his car - call 911 and wait for law enforcement?

There is no question #2.