Civilian death count

Alright, so lets have a light hearted talk about civilian casualties.... uhm

OK so Lets start with this,

The death toll for children in Afghanistan killed by the war between the United States and the Taliban just went up by 95 according to Afghan officials. The U.S. military is disputing the claim.

source

That was in an air raid, and the article was written on March 13th.
But thats Afghanistan... Here is some numbers from Wiki Wiki -Afghanistan civillian casualties of war 2001-present

Those are some strong starting numbers, and USA today says they hit a 5 year high!

It was an 8% increase in civilian deaths from 2010. 2011 was also the fifth year in a row that the civilian toll has became steadily worse.

The report said insurgents killed more than three-quarters of the civilians who died, with a steep rise in people killed in suicide bombings. It said roadside bombs were the single biggest killer of civilians, accounting for nearly one in three deaths.

source -USA Today
So the more recent civial casualties have been mostly by Insurgents
But from 2001-2011 it was mostly 50-50.
Here is the Guardian UK talking about it :Guardian UK: breakdown of civilian death in Afghanistan-US war

Someone is trying to get the high score.....


Lets try Iraq

Now this site is awesome and horrific at the same time, from this site... Iraqbodycount.org
Here you can adjust variables, from what type of weapon, to which side did the killing.

Iraq Body Count (IBC) recorded 4,087 civilian deaths from violence in 2011. Evidence of these deaths was extracted from some 6,828 distinct reports collected from over 90 sources covering 1,884 incidents, each of which is openly listed on the IBC website. This brings the total number of deaths in the IBC database so far to 114,734. These numbers represent a verifiable documentary record of deaths, and are not estimates

Wow, thats alot of civilians... maybe a little bit more context on Iraq

The civilian deaths in this war have been momentous. One simple reason to explain the high count of civilian deaths is the fact that war efforts were concentrated in a highly populated area, and many war-related deaths occured in residential areas (though there are also much more complex theories on why there is a high civilian death rate).

Visualising Iraq's civilian death toll

So its just some Collateral Damage, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, like at home watching tv...

Got all these bombs.. gotta use em... Whos next...maybe Iran?

Also, these estimates do not take into account the fact that the human cost of war can radically change the calculations of governments. If Israel bears significant civilian casualties in an Iranian counterstrike, what limits will the Netanyahu government observe in response? How will the extent of Iranian casualties change the calculus in Tehran? If hundreds or thousands of Iranians are left dead, does Iran's increasingly desperate government try to draw Israel into a messy war of tit-for-tat missile strikes over weeks, rather than days, in the hopes of imposing such political and human costs that Israel gives up?

The Guardian UK gives a very good reasoning to why not go to war. (not a light read, many facts and figures get in the way)

Man, if it does go through, there could be a new high score for civilian casualties..I mean collateral damage...
Kinda sounds like a video game huh.. Modern Warfare 5:Collateral Damage

Also there are all these things that aren't even counted, or some things are even hidden
Like all the people who died from hunger, or from being a refugee, being displaced, sickness from inability to get medical attention. Those would bring the numbers up quite a bit.

Oh and don't forget those humble soldier and their Drop Weapons


Geez, just imagine how high the score would be now....

Anyone that knows me knows that I think the 2nd Invasion of Iraq was a war crime for which George Bush and Dick Cheney need to be held accountable. It was based on a LIE; our blood and treasure have been wasted for nothing, not to mention the innocents who were killed.

BUT, that being said, most of the civilian casualties in Iraq have been the result of internecine violence between the Sunni and Shia militias. Don't forget that there was a time shortly after the invasion when Iraq was nearly in a full-scale civil war, with rival sects ethnically cleansing (religiously cleansing) entire neighborhoods. Bombings of mosques by rival sects produced a very high body count, not to mention bombing deaths in places like the open air bazaar where retarded women were sent to kill people buying puppies.

The only thing that kept these sectarian tensions below the boiling point was the iron fist of Saddam Hussein, who would not brook this type of violence. Once he was out of the way, an 800-year-old rivalry exploded and the U.S. was not prepared for that. Most of the work that has been done in Iraq since the invasion has been concentrated on keeping the Sunnis and Shia from killing each other.

So go ahead and blame the war itself on the U.S., there is no way we can escape that responsibility; but most of the civilian deaths were caused by the Iraqis themselves.

Just being honest.

reply to post by OldCorp


Very true. Especially in the case of road side bombs, which are not always very effective at taking out their intended targets. Often it ends up with civilian casualties.

Just to be clear, I was not blaming anyone. I am not trying to be anti-american, or pro-american.
I am simply pointing out the number of civilian death due to war in that area.

I really don't think the dead civilians really care who killed them, or which flag the bomb that fell on them had.

I just think it is important to bring context to the size of a war that can have multiple hundreds of thousand civilian casualties. Thats over 200 000 civilians.

I mean.... wow and I was trying to say that there are numbers that aren't even counted with those, which puts it very close to 300 000 ...

reply to post by KingAtlas


Thats really not that bad compared to previous wars whose tolls reach up from 10 and 20 million. Thats a holocaust. Not trying to justify anything here either, but when you put it in perspective, the US military really isn't as bad as some would like to make them out to be.

A light hearted conversation about civilian casualties? I hope you were being facetious when you said that. Anyway, it's an unfortunate fact of war that people die who have nothing to do with the conflict. In these two though, the fighters from the invaded countries are much responsible for civilian deaths than we are. All those road side bombs just don't detonate for western soldiers, especially the ones that are just basically land mines. They don't discriminate. I haven't seen any western suicide bombers either.

Either way, it's shame that civilians die. All most of them want to do is try and live their lives the best they can given the situation and try and keep their families safe.

If you read the thread, I think I spread it out evenly. Both sides are equally responsible.

I let the numbers speak for themselves.

As for the civilian casualty comparison to the WW's, it is a little bit of a different situation.



Saying 300 000 civilian casualties "Isn't that bad" is really a statement on what is acceptable in today's society.
I do sense a little bit of defensiveness.

I think something else to consider, is that these wars aren't yet over. So the "score" is ever rising.
If Isreal and Iran get involved, it will spill over to the other areas as well.

I did include alot of stuff, so I understand its hard to get through all of it.
Though, I think it is very interesting to actually look at the links I provided, then you can see exactly how many IED deaths there are so far.

As I said before, I let the numbers speak for themselves.

Is there even a civilian death toll anymore? for each of the "wars" countries or regions, or mideast + southeast asia combined? (ie, obama's AFPAK "war")

Seems not even easy to keep a toll of how many countries in a broad region have been bombed and radiologically screwed over for hundreds of generations to come by depleted/enriched Uranium dispersal (worse than dropping several more nukes/atom bombs)

The sheer irony.. ongoing wars "on" WMDs & tyranny.. yet both are used spitefull upon all victims.


necrometrics.com...

Libyan estimate: At least 30,000 died in the war", AP, Sept. 8 2011

Originally posted by thehoneycomb
reply to post by OldCorp

 

Very true. Especially in the case of road side bombs, which are not always very effective at taking out their intended targets. Often it ends up with civilian casualties.

You'd think terrorists would realise it by now. Makes you question the leadership. Something about their unknown donors and their never ending weapon supply and man count really makes you think about what their real agenda is.