The Vetting - Holder 1995: We Must 'Brainwash' People on Guns

Originally posted by groingrinder

Originally posted by freethinker123


Good luck with arming your kids at school though if some crazy starts shooting...

We are trying to get schools to allow guns here in Arizona. But crazy liberals from la la land keep putting up excuses.

Thats a solution? How about making sure that no guns get into schools in the first place? Who would be allowed to use them? Where would they be kept? Metal detector or security guard?

Perhaps all the kids should be issued with weapons upon entering schools?

Originally posted by XyZeR
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Yeah...

im sure that when Jesus comes back, he'll prolly have an UZI...

www.youtube.com...

Uzis are passe - they're so last century! I'd like to think he'd come back packing an upgrade - maybe a particle beam weapons or some of that other magic-looking crap!

Folks who think Revelations is a road map for some sort of prophecy - instead of an encrypted encouragement for those living through the first century - seem to think he'll come back toting an army. If ya have an army, why do ya need an uzi? Won't your army have those already?

Nah, when He pulls the trigger, I wanna see some air ionize!

Proven, really? Then please provide the proof.

reply to post by glad_to_be_His

Good post. I agree.Whenever someone says "it's a proven fact", the first thing I think is that they don't have the proof, don't have a leg to stand on, and are trying to divert the attention from the fact that nothing of the sort has been proven. "Proven points" only exist if people present creditable, scientific proof that such points are "proven". Anything less in nothing more than UNEDUCATED opinions.

reply to post by jibeho


That might have worked, too - just the way you state it - if DoJ hadn't got caught with Holder's hand in the cookie jar. As it turned out, they just exposed their own support of state-sponsored terrorism - especially considering that DoJ not only ok'ed the sales but INSISTED and sometimes THREATENED if the gun shop owner balked at the notion!

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by freethinker123

Well actually you can to a degree, by supporting measures to make sure that said crazies and irresponsible gun owners get reduced access to weapons.

No. There's that pesky "shall not be infringed" that leaves no room for disarming others without disarming myself. I'm supremely unwilling to allow someone else to determine if I should exercise MY rights, and so do not expect any lesser treatment to be accorded others.

We can't hope to stop these types of 'incidents' altogether, but people have a duty to reduce them.

I have no such duty if it involves "reducing" someone else's self-control or lack thereof until they present a real danger - not just on a "maybe". It's a slippery slope you trod when you start dosing out consequences before an action has been presented. It's not my job to control or restrict someone else on an off chance that they might be irresponsible.

Good luck with arming your kids at school though if some crazy starts shooting...

There's more to refusing to be a victim than merely arming up - getting armed up is the LAST resort, not the first, and it means you did everything else wrong up to that point. However, if they fail, and that point comes, rest assured that they will be armed where they were not scant seconds previously.

Your first weapon is between your ears - every other weapon comes from there.

School shootings are beyond rare around here - way beyond rare. they are non-existent. Kids here prefer poking knives at one another. Just eliminating guns will NEVER eliminate violence. Eliminating violent people, however, does seem to have that effect.

Not just a maybe though is it? The fact is that the vast majority of guns used in this type of crime are obtained legally. What you mean to say is that you wouldn't change your mind even if evidence contradicted your opinion isn't it? Be honest, even if murder rates from gun shooting through use of legally procured weapons by said crazies went up by 1000% it wouldn't bother you, or would it?

How on earth can your children be armed if they are at school when some crazed teenager who got the weapon from his uncle's drawer decides to take his rage out against his old school?

I don't know where you live but in the US school shootings are higher than any other country in the world. And there is no correlation between the availability of weapons on the legal marketplace and school shootings?

In the country I live in we have never had a school shooting.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by freethinker123

Good for you in having such a laugh about people dying. I guess you are happy with innocent people getting killed by crazies then? Carry on, like I said, you get the society you deserve.

Why are you allowing crazies to roam free and unchecked in your society? As you say, you get the society you deserve.

I don't. In my society we don't have the violent crime seen in the US, there are no school shootings.
On the other hand the US has one of the highest instances of gun crime in the world. An armed society is a ... violent society so it would seem.

Originally posted by jibeho
After watching that video clip of Holder, it is easy to see why Obama anointed him to head up the DOJ. Both of them share the same views on firearms. We've been warned before regarding Obama's veiled intent for the Second Amendment. If he wins a second term, he will hit it with the focus of a Trijicon Reflex sight.

Hearing Holder's 1995 words in the aftermath of Fast and Furious leaves me at a loss for words...

let's see....holder throughout the video is talking about getting guns out of young peoples hands and to quit them from carrying them around in public. he said NOTHING ABOUT OUTLAWING GUNS, or hunting with guns, or self protection of your home or property, or ending the 2nd amendment.....did you people listen to the words he said? he's trying to end gun violence....and all of you conservatives sound like you want MORE AND MORE GUN VIOLENCE in our schools, on our streets, kids packing heat, mom and dad packing heat,.....

reply to post by freethinker123


While I don't believe everyone in the world is responsible enough to handle a firearm, I do however believe that people should have the right to own one. And I say the same thing for the right to drive a vehicle. (and I live under the constant threat of irresponsible driving on the way to work and back)

You can say whatever you want, but you cannot mitigate the intent to murder by simply keeping a single tool away from their hands. Bottom line is that people kill, and they will find a way to do it.

I don't expect you to change your believes, but I do expect you to live out what you believe and admit that you can't trust that people are capable of maintaining peace and abiding by the law. When people break the law, they could care less what to follow.

And if someone wants someone dead, it doesn't take a gun to take a persons life.
Anti-gun advocates are going to need more rational thinking if they expect to justify their philosophy.

I don't. In my society we don't have the violent crime seen in the US, there are no school shootings.
On the other hand the US has one of the highest instances of gun crime in the world. An armed society is a ... violent society so it would seem.

I can't agree more, it's pure and simple logic.
More people with guns = More guns used.

I can even prove it
Chart 1:
Crimerates in the US involving guns

Chart2:
Gun sales in the US

If you see these 2 graphs next to each other, look at the Peak in gun sales around 1992-1994 and then look at the peak in violent crimes around the same period. taht's just one statistic that proves the logic used.

Can anyone tell me with a straight face there is no correlation or connection between those 2?

reply to post by XyZeR


Hello. I have been a LONG time reader of ATS and I joined just to reply to this comment.

These graphs show a "Total Violent Crime" increasing from 1984 to its peak of 1992. The crime graph does not state it is "gun related crime".

The other graph shows an increase in production starting in 1992 and peaking in 1994.

It would appear to me that these graphs show a rise in crime followed by a rise in demand of firearms. After the increase in production of firearms the crime rate drops drastically. Can you tell anyone with a straight face that these graphs show something besides this?

You appear to have made a very strong case for firearms as a means to lower crime rate.

Thank you I hope that my first post has been as exciting for ATS as it was for me!

sb

How about a portion of the 99% movement air TV ads airing people to accept universal federal government funded health care as a way to "encourage" people to be healthy and to vote for Jill Stein and Kat Swift and to remind people of how much of a failure the Obama Administration really is since Obama hasn't provided universal federal government funded health care?

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by jibeho
After watching that video clip of Holder, it is easy to see why Obama anointed him to head up the DOJ. Both of them share the same views on firearms. We've been warned before regarding Obama's veiled intent for the Second Amendment. If he wins a second term, he will hit it with the focus of a Trijicon Reflex sight.

Hearing Holder's 1995 words in the aftermath of Fast and Furious leaves me at a loss for words...

let's see....holder throughout the video is talking about getting guns out of young peoples hands and to quit them from carrying them around in public. he said NOTHING ABOUT OUTLAWING GUNS, or hunting with guns, or self protection of your home or property, or ending the 2nd amendment.....did you people listen to the words he said? he's trying to end gun violence....and all of you conservatives sound like you want MORE AND MORE GUN VIOLENCE in our schools, on our streets, kids packing heat, mom and dad packing heat,.....

Its a step by step process.

Step one "Especially Young People" Impressionable minds

"What we need to do is change the way in which people think about guns, especially young people, and make it something that's not cool, that it's not acceptable, it's not hip to carry a gun anymore, in the way in which we changed our attitudes about cigarettes."

I live near a High School and I still see plenty of Kids smoking before and after school. I also pick up their littered butts.

Step Two

make the anti-gun message a part of "every day, every school, and every level."

Shape the mindset to make changing the legislation easy down the road. Guns bad Guns Bad Guns Bad. No mention of the Bad People that use guns, knives, baseball bats, iron pipe, to commit crimes. You know the people who ignore the law anyway. The same people who will use any deadly weapon that they can find to commit a crime. No mention of them...

Holder is quite clear where he stands on the Second Amendment.

This is classic!! It's from 2009. (in the midst of F&F)

The Doj keeps the records on gun violence which Means Holder which doesn't mean anything.

270 million to 300 million guns are in the US which amount to x amount of people died but doesn't say by who.

Criminals,Cops and the Regular John doe gun owner.

Originally posted by XyZeR

I don't. In my society we don't have the violent crime seen in the US, there are no school shootings.
On the other hand the US has one of the highest instances of gun crime in the world. An armed society is a ... violent society so it would seem.

I can't agree more, it's pure and simple logic.
More people with guns = More guns used.

I can even prove it
Chart 1:
Crimerates in the US involving guns

Chart2:
Gun sales in the US

If you see these 2 graphs next to each other, look at the Peak in gun sales around 1992-1994 and then look at the peak in violent crimes around the same period. taht's just one statistic that proves the logic used.

Can anyone tell me with a straight face there is no correlation or connection between those 2?

I would look you in the eyes and tell you your delusional in the kindest way possible.

If your statement was indeed a true statement, then the two graphs would be parralell. Anyone who takes the time to analyze the statistics can make that conclusion by looking at the data as a whole. You however are only interested in singling out the part of the function that supports your propaganda. Furthermore, it's of no surprise that you ignore the inverse relationships that occur before and after.

Statistics are statistics, not proof. And they should be treated as such.

Ok, here's another idea for a TV ad to encourage nonviolence: how about a TV ad that explains what happens to people that have to fight during war and why war with Iran is a totally bad idea.

Weekend of violence claims 10 shooting victims across Chicago

That's 10 that they Think were killed.

And included in the 49 total shootings !!!

Chicago has bigtime gun laws too !!


By Liam Ford, Peter Nickeas and Rosemary Sobol
Chicago Tribune reporters
11:29 a.m. CDT, March 19, 2012

At least 10 people were killed, including a 6-year-old girl, in shootings over the weekend in Chicago.

The slain were among at least 49 people wounded in shootings from 5 p.m. Friday to 6 a.m. Monday, according to information compiled by the Chicago Tribune.

Two teenagers were expected to appear in bond court today in the slaying of Aliyah Shell, as she sat with her mother, sister and a male about 3:30 p.m. Saturday on the front porch of her home in the 3100 block of South Springfield Avenue. Aliyah was killed when a pickup truck pulled up in front of the house and someone fired multiple shots out of the window, hitting her, according to Chicago Police Department News Affairs....

Chicago Murders


These dudes just didn't listen to Eric !!

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by groingrinder

Originally posted by freethinker123


Good luck with arming your kids at school though if some crazy starts shooting...

We are trying to get schools to allow guns here in Arizona. But crazy liberals from la la land keep putting up excuses.

Thats a solution? How about making sure that no guns get into schools in the first place? Who would be allowed to use them? Where would they be kept? Metal detector or security guard?

Perhaps all the kids should be issued with weapons upon entering schools?

He is referring to guns in universities to students old enough to legally purchase said firearms. Not children, what kind of idiot would honestly think any child should be able to carry a firearm to school? What kind of moron actually believes that someone would actually propose a law to allow it?

Originally posted by freethinker123

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by freethinker123

Well actually you can to a degree, by supporting measures to make sure that said crazies and irresponsible gun owners get reduced access to weapons.

No. There's that pesky "shall not be infringed" that leaves no room for disarming others without disarming myself. I'm supremely unwilling to allow someone else to determine if I should exercise MY rights, and so do not expect any lesser treatment to be accorded others.

We can't hope to stop these types of 'incidents' altogether, but people have a duty to reduce them.

I have no such duty if it involves "reducing" someone else's self-control or lack thereof until they present a real danger - not just on a "maybe". It's a slippery slope you trod when you start dosing out consequences before an action has been presented. It's not my job to control or restrict someone else on an off chance that they might be irresponsible.

Good luck with arming your kids at school though if some crazy starts shooting...

There's more to refusing to be a victim than merely arming up - getting armed up is the LAST resort, not the first, and it means you did everything else wrong up to that point. However, if they fail, and that point comes, rest assured that they will be armed where they were not scant seconds previously.

Your first weapon is between your ears - every other weapon comes from there.

School shootings are beyond rare around here - way beyond rare. they are non-existent. Kids here prefer poking knives at one another. Just eliminating guns will NEVER eliminate violence. Eliminating violent people, however, does seem to have that effect.

Not just a maybe though is it? The fact is that the vast majority of guns used in this type of crime are obtained legally. What you mean to say is that you wouldn't change your mind even if evidence contradicted your opinion isn't it? Be honest, even if murder rates from gun shooting through use of legally procured weapons by said crazies went up by 1000% it wouldn't bother you, or would it?

How on earth can your children be armed if they are at school when some crazed teenager who got the weapon from his uncle's drawer decides to take his rage out against his old school?

I don't know where you live but in the US school shootings are higher than any other country in the world. And there is no correlation between the availability of weapons on the legal marketplace and school shootings?

In the country I live in we have never had a school shooting.

edit on 19-3-2012 by freethinker123 because: (no reason given)

Well see a school shooting by students could not happen with legally obtained weapons. You have to be 18 to purchase a long gun (21 in some places) and 21 to buy a handgun. A student taking " his uncles gun from his drawer" is not a legally obtained firearm, that gun was stolen. So, instead of sensationalizing the facts here, use actual facts.

reply to post by SM2


When I have children, I would like to have them learn about firearms. But like you said, it takes some maturity & responsibility to become worthy of carrying a firearm.

Anti-gun advocates generally build their case of irrational fear so I'm not surprised that poster you quoted would say something like that. Now of course, I'm not saying they are incapable of doing so. I just find it funny how text book that response was.

reply to post by GambitVII


Yeah, well thats all they do, text book cookie cutter repsonses because thats all they have, they can not think for themselves most of the time.

When I was a kid, my father made sure I understood just how dangerous a firearm was. I had my own shotgun, .22 rifle and .22 revolver when I was a child, but I dare not touch it without his supervision. I would venture to say that most accidents with kids and firearms are because of the exact opposite of that. If you hide the firearm, and treat it like it doesnt exist, the children will want to check it out that much more.