Finally there is an independent investigation, and not a word about it on ATS?

On numerous threats I have read it over and over; truthers demand an independent investigation. Back on JREF, a bunch of JREFers (including some truthers) put together some money, and got the WTC dust samples tested by an independent lab. The results got in yesterday. The conclusion was that the red chips are not thermite, but a type of red paint. You can find the primilary report here: forums.randi.org...

Why isn't this big news in the truther world? Isn't the truth movement about finding the truth, no matter what this truth is? Or is it only about a certain "truth"?

Why has the truth movement been able to get this done itself, and why did a "debunker" have to organize this investigation? It only cost 1000 dollar in the end.

To me the answers are obvious by the way. But feel free to comment on it.

Originally posted by -PLB-
On numerous threats I have read it over and over; truthers demand an independent investigation. Back on JREF, a bunch of JREFers (including some truthers) put together some money, and got the WTC dust samples tested by an independent lab. The results got in yesterday. The conclusion was that the red chips are not thermite, but a type of red paint. You can find the primilary report here: forums.randi.org...

Why isn't this big news in the truther world? Isn't the truth movement about finding the truth, no matter what this truth is? Or is it only about a certain "truth"?

Why has the truth movement been able to get this done itself, and why did a "debunker" have to organize this investigation? It only cost 1000 dollar in the end.

To me the answers are obvious by the way. But feel free to comment on it.

I couldnt really care less about nano thermite, the planes are all that really matters, that and building 7. Israel did it in a joint op with Saudi (supply the cut outs) and the Bushes, ensure the cover up. worked.

Motives
Israel - we attack their enemies
Saudi - Oil price goes up, we attack their enemies
Bushes - Oil price goes up, work is secured for CIA agents for years to come, their friends like Cheney etc get rich too

Any behind all that, the bankers, their motive is just money.

reply to post by -PLB-


i wonder why the qualified investigation did # 2 in particular

1. The dust sample particles contained in a plastic bag were drawn across a magnet and those attracted to the magnet were collected (Figure 5).
9119ProgressReport022912s Page 3 of 21
2. Using a stereomicroscope, particle chips showing the characteristic red/gray were removed and washed in clean water.
3. The particles were dried and mounted on a carbon adhesive film on an SEM stub and photographed (Figure 5).
[...]

washing off the particles of interest ???

seems counter productive to me



further down the page one will find another post with the conclusion:

which says in part:

At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined.

The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16

key point -> does not match.. so the samples themselves are suspect or compromised...
the MSDS of the WTC epoxy paint points to a different mixture/compound than what was tested


source. OP link:
forums.randi.org...


thanks

Red paint? Therm-ite,ate,other...
Ask the right questions....Where is the rubble on 9/12?

One word.

Dustification

reply to post by St Udio



They washed off the particles of interest so those particles could be put under a microscope. They did not, as I assume you were thinking, wash the particles off, discard them, and then look at the paint. And it was clean water to prevent any outside contamination....

The point of this was to see if traces of thermite were in the dust particles found on the red marking that many thought were thermite residue. It is now shown to just be red paint with dust on it.

Originally posted by St Udio
washing off the particles of interest ???

They were cleaned in order to avoid contamination. We should assume that Harrit and his team did a similar procedure. If not his findings are useless.

further down the page one will find another post with the conclusion:

which says in part:

At the time of this progress report, the identity of the product from which the red/gray chips were generated has not been determined.

The composition of the red/gray chips found in this study (epoxy resin with iron oxide and kaolin pigments) does not match the formula for the primer paint used on iron column members in the World Trade Center towers (Table 1).16

key point -> does not match.. so the samples themselves are suspect or compromised...
the MSDS of the WTC epoxy paint points to a different mixture/compound than what was tested

It does match the characteristics of a type of paint, just not the brand used on the columns.

reply to post by imd12c4funn


About 1/3th of the rubble was moved to Fresh Kills landfill. About two million tons of material, most of which is still buried there (wiki).

Anyway, this is severely off-topic.

All 9/11 collapse video is computer generated fakery.


CGI collapse footage from the movie 'Independence Day'.

The towers were emptied beforehand and brought down
using traditional tried and trusted methods.
The whole thermite/nanothermite issue is a red herring brought forth to distract and
divide by the faux truth movement.

They will bring to the table anything, but the whole notion of 9/11 Fakery!

Originally posted by pshea38
All 9/11 collapse video is computer generated fakery.

CGI collapse footage from the movie 'Independence Day'.

The towers were emptied beforehand and brought down
using traditional tried and trusted methods.
The whole thermite/nanothermite issue is a red herring brought forth to distract and
divide by the faux truth movement.

They will bring to the table anything, but the whole notion of 9/11 Fakery!

edit on 1-3-2012 by pshea38 because: (no reason given)

Actually, I was there. There was no CGI involved as people flung themselves from the heights above.

reply to post by Maponos


No government supplied the man power for 9/11 it was a private military unit run by the CIA and funded by the federal reserve bank. No one else could have carried it out, no one could have gained access to the CIA building 7.

Listen, if you think the CIA is operated by the mainstream government, think again. Thr mainstream government doesnt even know who these people are! The CIA is a private inteligence service owned by the federal reserve bank. The private federal reserve shareholders fund the CIA and are the only people therefore who know all the CIA assets.

If the federal reserve is properly auditted then this information will come out which is why they dont want it to be properly auditted.

The foreign military unit and the CIA were and remain the only individuals who could have laced the CIA areas of building 7 with explosives to demolish it. Do people really think that the CIA would let any willy nilly person into thier building and thier rooms?!

reply to post by -PLB-


Dissappointed about your misleading title. It is an investigation of 1 aspect of it and proves nothing.
Now, if there were a real independent investigation including the dancing Israeli's, Bldg 7, the testimony of people saying bombs went off in the basement, etc-that would be something to talk about. As it is all I see from this is that it's far from case closed

In answer to the OP question:
It's not burning up the ATS website because ATS truthers never let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy.

To the last poster: It does put to rest the thermite debate. But no it's not an entire 911 reinvestigation.

I have just read Chris Mohrs(summary of) report and they have it would seem stuck to the same proceedure as the Herit el al study....so we now have yet again UNCONCLUSIVE results....now lets look at scientific studies is Butter good for you or not....seems like study after study agrees or disagrees.....Does it make one study more or less valued....Not at all...It means that you have conflicting data and for some reason one study does not produce the same results.....now according to Chris on the Jref forums(which is baised to wowrds the OS) this is the summary and he will release the data and the results today.....so we will wait and see .....
So if the case is that this particular study which he managed to raise a whopping $1000 to have done....is interesting to say the least.....Now what does this mean....It means most likely that another study will be done by Herit et al to confirm or deny the results...
So we will yet again have to see....now another item on the Jref forum which was interesting was a rust proof paint in the pigment there is a amount aluminium silicate.....so where was this in this study....so we will have to wait and see......also there is strontium.......but again in the summary this was not found......now in the beginning it is stated by Chris this would be an unbiased study......So i would imagine that in an Unbiased study why would it not unbiasly find all traces of elements that should be there.
I look forward to seeing the full study results......rather than results coming from a biased point of view....i don't know if or if not Thermite was even necessary to bring down the towers....but i do know that what was needed was alot more than aircrafts....kerosene.....and gravity....in buildings that had stood for 40yrs .....suffered a large fire in the 70's .......a truck bomb in the 90.s........had enough asbestos in them that they would have easily thwarted the fire ......because otherwise they would not have been so worried about the cost of taking them down.
So PLB please post the full results when you get the chance.

Just a side note: If the OS community was so eager to discount Herit et al analysis....why follow the same proceedure to repeat their testing when they stated over the years how flawed it was in the first place and called them a bunch of psuedo scientist's(just an after thought)

reply to post by -PLB-
In my opinion that's going to the extreme,are you serious James Randi the denier of all?

James Randi doesn't believe in anything at all period notta zilch.

If you want to prove the os find another source

reply to post by coyotepoet


Be happy there is at least some investigating going on. This should be front page news. The truth movement isn't getting anything done.

Just some standard questions, what exactly should be investigated, who should do this investigation, and when are you satisfied with the results? Any reader will notice that these questions will remain unanswered.

reply to post by plube


Its not inconclusive. The conclusions are that the chips are not thermite but a yet unidentified type of paint. There is no conflicting data. There are conflicting conclusions. The conclusions made by Harrits team turned out to be wrong. This research showed there is no elemental Al in chips with the same properties as Harrit investigated, a subject that was not sufficiently investigated by Harrit and co.

reply to post by samkent


Excuse me It does not put to rest thermite issue at all...it is finally another test of some dust sample....there are still alot of questions.....first off....was there biased in the results...second just as the OSer do...there will be qualifications and character assassinations to come.....also....this is a summary from Chris Mohr on the analysis that was undertaken.....once the data...and numbers get looked at it could all change(not saying it will or wont).

then there is the fact they ran a magnet over a certain sample of dust collection...One needs to ask the question....did the magnet just collect dust of Iron with paint on it.....Which there was X% then needs to compare that with...possible Z% of building structure just had paint as to F% of thermite that would be required...then what is the possibilty that was the a dust sample that may have carried thermite....

Do you see the dilemna.....and was that from the same dust samples that ...Harriet et al had....and what is the % of possibilty event that said sample was to contain more thermite residue in which a sample could be proven.

So you see all the same applies.....from the OSer and how they will rip apart analysis...the same will then be done of this study...now for yourself to just believe this study it would show how biased you are towards it... there are still questions...(to ME) ... even why one would need thermite....i dont see the issue with shape cahrges of a conventional type....Also if you have any incline to lean towards MOSSAD being involved then you have so many types of explosive options that do not use thermite....

You have now jumped to the same thing you accuse truthers of my friend....before the report has gone through peer review you have jumped on the band wagon......The report has not even been submitted yet for peer review.

So if i was you...I would think about what has just been said....because you surely would not want to get put as the same class as what you say are all the faults of a truther.....shame shame.

reply to post by TWILITE22


The only link to the Randi forum is that members of it were the primary funders. This included a couple of truthers on that site. The research itself is in no way linked to the Randi forum, and is done by an independent lab. It is presented on the American Association of Forensic Scientists 2012 convention. Its about as good as it can get.

reply to post by -PLB-


i will say to you the same thing i have just said to Samkent....It is inconclusive, as it is just a sumary from Chris on a study he had commissioned......It has not been peer reviewed......the fulll data sets have not yet been released....

What it is at this stage is...a commisioned test on a sample of material that had no thermite found....that has not yet been verified...and has not yet been peer reviewed......now please by all mean....explain what is is not.

i am only putting forward.....yours and many other OSer's word right back at you.....harit et al had a sample tested by reputable people doing lab testing....this has had reputable people with a sample doing lab tesing...

I am stating fact here....and not only that...he posted that yesterday....in jref.....am i correct.

he said he would release the report today......am i correct.

So to me it would seem the report has not even been release yet as i was just on the jref forum....so please when you get hold of the whole report......let me know...as you did not answer the strontium question.....you know...from the paint pigment......you know just curious.

Chris Mohr

The full preliminary report will be available tomorrow, figures and pictures included, with a web link. I'll post that link here as soon as Jim Millette puts it up.

source

reply to post by plube

Just a side note: If the OS community was so eager to discount Herit et al analysis....why follow the same proceedure to repeat their testing when they stated over the years how flawed it was in the first place and called them a bunch of psuedo scientist's(just an after thought)

So the same procedure could not produce the same results.
Then you cannot use the claim "there was thermite found in the debris".

So if there was no thermite any CD would have to use conventional explosives. All the conventional CD's I have seen on TV have many huge booms. But I didn't see/hear any on 911.