When is the Death Penalty not enough?

(I wasn't sure which forum this should be, but other Death Penalty stories are found here, and this is about that in the end. Please move if necessary.)

Here at ATS, people have very lively debates about Capital Punishment. I've joined in a few and it's interesting if not educational. Most of the time, we're talking about people who have killed a cop, or a few people. Perhaps someone who killed a clerk at a store or some family in a home invasion. These people, once convicted, sit in the nation's Death Row units awaiting their final day and fate. However, what happens when crimes are so extreme and so far beyond imagining, that the Death Penalty just doesn't seem enough anymore? Let me draw your attention to what I feel is just such a case.


In what could set new standards and levels for the Evil men can commit against their fellow man, meet David Dean Smith:

Police in Rapid Springs, Michigan, have released information hoping to alert potential victims of a serial philanderer who deliberately had unprotected sex with thousands of people, in an effort to spread HIV. David Dean Smith, 51, turned himself in to Michigan police last week, confessing that he hoped to spread his infection to others.

According to the Daily Mail a detective working on the case said of Smith "He says he intentionally attempted to spread the disease to kill people.

Smith has allegedly slept with over 3,000 men and women over the last few years.

Source

This man slept with thousands of people. He admits in his own words to doing it for the express purpose of sharing his fatal viral infection as far and wide as he could manage. The estimates in the article are a mind numbing THREE THOUSAND PEOPLE he likely had contact with and possible infected. One doesn't need to be familiar with the 'Vector Pyramid' of infection to realize this one man represents a single handed epidemic of disease in the areas he operated.

When murder comes with 0's on the end for body count, we normally call that combat and warfare. How should society handle it when such things become the subject of individual citizens inflicting such horrors on each other?

What punishment fits when the crime is a literally starting a localized epidemic of fatal illness, by choice?

Lock him up alone for the rest of his life.
No human contact

I'm sorry, and I empathize completely, but we're stuck. The legal profession has for years used "cruel and unusual punishment" to attack even the death penalty. I understand wanting to go tougher, but I don't see how.

Wait a minute, just had a thought. What would happen if we televised his death? Would it create sympathy and copycats? Nah, on second thought, I don't think that would be a good idea.

I'm going to watch this to see what people come up with.

reply to post by OmegaOwl


Alone?

He has his joy if you know what I mean when one is alone.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


When is the Death Penalty not enough?


When it is no longer a deterrent...as seen on a regular basis.


And yes, this individual should be sodomized with a Pineapple...

reply to post by facelift

I agree and I'm at a loss here. What deterrence would work when Death obviously doesn't? It seems people like this man either don't believe he'd ever really face it, or he realizes at his age he'll be pushing deep gray hair and old age issues by the time he got to that point anyway. He obviously had no fear of authority since he just strolled right in, big as life, to admit his horrors and stick his wrists out for handcuffs.

So, what is the approach to address the unthinkable?

Wow. Thanks for posting this, wrabbit.

Really disturbiing. What motivated him? Anger? Revenge? Psychopathy??

In this case, while I'm against the Death Penalty in general, based on the premise that "why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?", I think that the guy should be in solitary and not given ANY medication.
What a horrific and beastly thing to do.

And not just a few people...3,000?!!

Wow. Just like I felt about Susan Smith, who drowned her babies...in my opinion, her punishment should be to be locked inside a car EVERY DAY for the rest of her life, which is then lowered into a body of water until she is on the brink of death....and then resuscitated .... to feel the pain she imposed onto her babies.

DISGRACEFUL. Death is too good for that type of person.

I've always thought "eye for an eye". My cousin suffered a horrible murder this year. It was very sad for the family and her children she left behind. Most of my family is pretty spiritual and actually forgave this man.
Me... I feel like he should be stabbed 15 times and left to bleed to death on his own. In the cold. So he could feel what she felt before she died.

I am basically opposed to the death penalty even for those cases where there is no doubt whatsoever. I am not a humanist because I have friends that have been murdered. I feel that the easy cases simply justify capital punishment for those other cases which are marginal in certainty. However, I don't feel that crimes such as this deserve a mere life in prison to be incorporated into the prison population and live as normal as one can under the circumstances. Cases such as this should involve total isolation from the world. Basic meals, no entertainment or books, and no life prolonging medical care. Capital punishment is merely the same euthenasia we give our pets, sometimes faster and sometimes slower. This man deserves no mercy and euthanesia would be mercy to him. I would prefer to see him rot in a cell alone and isolated.

Originally posted by WarJohn
reply to post by OmegaOwl

 

Alone?

He has his joy if you know what I mean when one is alone.

not really, if chemical or actual castration is applied

the only thing that works is prevention. Understanding what causes people to behave this way will save far more lives than sodomizing with pineapples or any other inhuman punishment.

He had sex with thousands of people in only a FEW YEARS? Yea, ok.

That would mean no time to work or sleep spending all of his time meeting and hooking up with 1000's. He wouldnt even have time to shower or relieve himself being that busy.

And with a mug like that, HOW did he get that much action?

C'mon, thousands of partners???!! Total BS!! [color=cyan]Brad Pitt would be JEALOUS!!!!

I would BET that this is actually a cover for HIV-tainted VACCINES in that area...

Originally posted by HeavierThanLight
the only thing that works is prevention. Understanding what causes people to behave this way will save far more lives than sodomizing with pineapples or any other inhuman punishment.

You know, I'll agree with you entirely when we're talking about some teenagers who bust up a local hotel room or shoplift from the Walmart. I'll even go so far as to say that is the right approach when the horror comes from one very young. Someone recently had a thread on here about a child apparently guilty of some truly terrible things. If they're young enough to guide in a different direction? It's wrong to write them off... Indeed.

Where I'm afraid we part company is when the criminal is a full grown adult and anything short of just over the top insane. Not the technical version of that term, but the kind of insane a news story couldn't help mentioning and the cops would even bother questioning a suspect because of. He wasn't, obviously.

So, I define this as evil.. I know some people dedicate their lives to understanding evil men. More power to them. Some spend a lifetime studying the mating habits of insects too. I find both about equally productive. Removal of evil is the only solution I see....I'm just lost by this case on what the best solution may be the achieve that.

The slaves fighting among themselves. You can't possibly look at the top and who is really responsible for AIDS and HIV, instead blame the poor sap at the bottom. The US government and the pharmaceutical companies created and spread this disease throughout the world, but it would take courage on your part to go against them. It doesn't take much courage to go along with the crowd and pick on the powerless.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Where I'm afraid we part company is when the criminal is a full grown adult and anything short of just over the top insane. Not the technical version of that term, but the kind of insane a news story couldn't help mentioning and the cops would even bother questioning a suspect because of. He wasn't, obviously.

The guy was certifiably, diagnosably insane. (I used to have the authority to diagnose people before I retired... but prefer not to be bashed for that, thanks everyone). This guy was obviously, yes, insane, in the technical version of that term.

reply to post by HangTheTraitors

Actually, you raise a good point and I had to go back and pull some additional stories and information. The moment I read your note, the numbers struck me too. 3,000 victims in 3 years or so...the math is interesting on that.

How it apparently happened is equally interesting. It would appear that from his own statements, those given by one of his Victims and his Ex-wife in California, he favored singles sites and online dating as a primary approach, but he wasn't picky. He wasn't apparently shy about telling multiple people that he'd also happily pick up drifters, runaways and whoever else might be an opportunity for him to spread more horror. His Ex-Wife also points out he was in San Diego for 8 years BEFORE the few years in question, and may have been playing 'typhoid marty' out there, as well.

So...It's a bit of a feat..but I suppose if one sets out specifically to have intimate contact with other humans, and that is the only real criteria, then stranger things have certainly happened. It would sound like this man made a living or personal mission out of this effort to infect others.

I'll say this though. If the true number proves to be 300, 1300 or 3,000. Once we start putting 0's on the end, he's crossed into a whole new level of crime and evil. I wonder...how much difference does that extra 0 make in terms of what his fate should be from it?

Here are a couple other sources that add a bit here and there to the picture of our Monster here:

Man spreading HIV may have California Victims

Additional information from a victim in this story

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Where I'm afraid we part company is when the criminal is a full grown adult and anything short of just over the top insane. Not the technical version of that term, but the kind of insane a news story couldn't help mentioning and the cops would even bother questioning a suspect because of. He wasn't, obviously.

The guy was certifiably, diagnosably insane. (I used to have the authority to diagnose people before I retired... but prefer not to be bashed for that, thanks everyone). This guy was obviously, yes, insane, in the technical version of that term.

You've got me curious now. How can you determine based only on the stories here, that he was certifiably insane? If I understand the legal definition where this matters, an element of that must include the inability to distinguish right from wrong. Now I didn't have the stories posted that I now do in the post prior to this one, so you may not have seen it, but he was apparently a braggart about some of this and told his Ex Wife awhile back about his exploits. He also showed a hint of remorse..faked anyway..in a text just prior to turning himself in.

While I'll grant you that his elevator doesn't hit the top floor in the same way we understand it. Psychopathy or Sociopaths certainly don't automatically meet that legal crazy definition, right? I'd HATE to see a creature like this beat his fate over claiming he was nuts...when by the description of his own victim, he was a psychopathic predator.

So how does this reconcile with your experience as a Mental Health Professional? I have no challenge to my question...I;m genuinely curious as much as I'm baffled over the whole case here.

When is the death penalty not enough? When education does a better job in bringing peace and justice.

Every "terrorist" that is killed is the death penalty in action, and has it brought justice? Will there ever be enough justic to satisfy washington, d.c. ? Education brings about real change. Truth is peace and is a far more effective weapon than war.

................so none of those 3k knew til now.
and how many people did they sleep with since being his victim?
And how many people did the victim's lovers sleep with after sleeping with the man's victims?
And how many people did the victims lovers lovers sleep with?
Etc
Etc
eeeeetttttttccccccccccc.....


And people have the gall to ask me in total shock and awe why I have not had one format of sex with anyone since 2002.

THERE YA HAVE IT. Couldn't answer any better.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

You've got me curious now. How can you determine based only on the stories here, that he was certifiably insane? If I understand the legal definition where this matters, an element of that must include the inability to distinguish right from wrong.

That's not the definition except in a "court of law." This man wilfully infected others with his malady. This in no way reflects appropriate and "sane" levels of consciousness of responsibility and empathy for fellow human beings, nor the natural and normal remorse that is felt by the "sane" after commiting such an act (which a "sane" person would not in the first place). To repeat the same behavior with (presumably) 3,000 victims is an outrageous and flagrant defiance of social norms and expectations.

"Insanity" is, in the profession, based on a person's level of functioning, on a continuum of "not at all" (being "dead") to "perfect" (being "Christlike" in behavioral perfection, if you will).

This man made conscious choices to harm others, and there is no way to explain it away by saying he was "psychotic" (which is what the court sees as "insane" -- that is, the inability to distinguish between right and wrong or to comprehend the ramifications of one's actions) in the sense of being delusional.

That type of malice, indifference, and lack of remorse is considered to be so outside the norm of social expectation and functioning that it is not sane....it is beyond aberrant. It is willful and evil harm, not induced by anything but a callous wish to harm others.