Thousands surge into Moscow to challenge Kremlin

reply to post by pause4thought

Those Russians just loive there John McCain dont they?
why not just send them to America then?

Originally posted by princeofpeace
Breaking news on Fox, Gorbachev calling on Putin to step down.

Ah the Gorbachev those protesters that they love? the one ma who sold out the Soviet Union in the first place.

To all of the people who are predicting violance in Russia along the lines of the Arab Spring uprisings - sorry to disappoint you but this will not happen. The social, cultural, and political situation in Russia is vastly different. The people in power will concede if pushed strongly - because the people who will replace them (by a democratic process mind you) will likely be from the same "political elite" with mostly the same views and principals.

Originally posted by pause4thought
I think civil war would be a possibility. All men have undergone military service...

No, it is not a possibility. Civil was did not happen in 1991 when the Communist hardliners tried to stage a coup against Gorbachev. The army and special forces who were tasked by the coup organizers to storm the White House, which was surrounded by civilians in an anti-Communist protest, decided not to carry out the order. They knew that the storming would lead to hundreds if not thousands of dead, and all of the top military comand reached a consensus to avoid bloodshed - even if it meant an end to the USSR. There was no civil war, there were no mass arrests, there was no firing on the protesters. Even hardline Communists did not want to see the country and the people burn. Everyone in Russia is well aware of the horrors of civil war like the one in 1917, and the fact that such a conflict is guaranteed only lead to more suffering and bring about yet another dictatorship. If a civil conflict did not erupt in 1991, then it will certainly not erupt now. Russians have shown their resolve to avoid massive brother-against-brother bloodshed.

Then again, in 1994, when Yeltsin illegally and unconstitutionally sacked the parliament, it did not result in civil war. Only several hundred of the most extreme supporters of the parliament took up arms, and there were a few hundred casualties - but the conflict did not escalate and most of the people chose to avoid violance.


Again, do not confuse Russia with the likes of Syria or Lybia. Most of the population is part of relatively well-off middle class, with advanced education, and most of the same rights that people in US or Western Europe enjoy. And the military establishment is not some crazed cult at the personal control of a dictator. The generals have considerable flexibility to make decisions. Moreover, the fact that most of the military consists of conscripts lessens the chances of them fighting civilians. Most conscript soldiers to not consider themselves to be career soldiers but associate more with the civilians. Nobody would be foolish enough to order the army or police to fire on civilians.

If its commie led ,then military will disobey because most russian military has communist sympathy.

That is false. The military does not have communist sympathy. A good number of high ranking generals might, but most of the officers and soldiers do not. They joined the military after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The military culture has changed a lot. But that is not to say that the military would not side with civilians, in fact they most likely would - not because they are sympathetic to the communists, but because they relate and associate with civilians.

As for who is organizing the protests - it is not just the communists. They are probably 15-25% of the protesters. And I don't mean Soviet era hardline communists - I mean the new reformer communists/socialists who associate themselves with Zyuganov. The protests are really being organized as a collaborative efforts by the opposition. This includes a mix of just about everyone you can think of, even old supporters of Putin who are tired of the same old thing.

The reason why so many people are so motivated to go out and protest all of the sudden, is the result of the recent parliamentary election. While United Russia won, it was still a considerable upset for Putin, with some opposition getting far more votes than predicted. These results gave the people some motivation if you will - that if they rally together they have a chance to vote Putin out or at least pressure him into making some political reforms. He is still very popular of course, but he no longer has the edge and a huge reserve of support he once did.

Russian state TV totted up the votes in the Rostov region to a total of more than 146%. Even with Russia's patchy electoral history that's an impressive tally. This week thousands of protesters hit the streets of Moscow to vent their anger about the apparent vote rigging in Sunday's parliamentary elections

Lol no wonder they are pissed! How stupid are they to report that?!?

reply to post by Rockpuck


No. They're not the same thing.

reply to post by pause4thought


Looks like Arabian Spring came to Russia. The entire world saw how easy it was to throw a coup when that happened. This phenomena isn't fizzled out yet althought the american OWS movement is on its last legs as our police state has brutally cracked down on the poor people protesting.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by pause4thought

 

All Russia needs now is ACORN to help the community organizer, Putin, gain power!

Seriously, beezzer... votes totaling 146% of available votes?

I do believe ACORN is already on the job!

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

No Putin post would be complete without Vladimir Putin on Tiger-Saving Mission...

Putin's cammies here really should have been Russian Tigr camouflage in order for Putin to demonstrate solidarity with his poor oppressed brother beast!

Wow, it's always great to see people standing up against corruption.

It takes a lot of guts to do this is Russia.

I wish them the best! It's probably FUHreezing there!

I don't know much about Russian politics, but i can take a guess and say that's it's not the most fair system out there.

People all around the world are taking a stand against corruption, what an exciting time to be alive.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by pause4thought

 

This should have happened in the US following Bush's non-election in 2000 and non-reelection in 2004. Even if Al Gore/Kerry were the same hacks as Bush was.

Anyway, good for the people of Russia! There was definitely fraud there.

So its absolutely impossible for you to be involved in any thread on this site and not find some idiotic manner in which to somehow make this an I hate the US thread / I hate the US comment, contrary to your claims in other threads of being able to.

Since your from Canada here is some help so you dont continue to make a fool out of yourself.

Since the US is a representative Republic and not a Democracy, things work a bit different. For starters we use an electoral college system for the election of our #1 and #2 slots at the head of our Federal Government. Because of that, its entirely possible for a person to win the electoral college but not the popular vote, as happened in 2000. Its occurred about 2 or 3 other times in our nations history, and contrary to popular belief by people who don't either understand how our system works or are part of the group who just ignore parts they dont like in order to bitch about results, its not illegal nor does it invalidate elections.

In 2004 Bush won both the electoral as well as the popular vote, and again if you knew anything about American politics you would already know that, however I think, as stated before, you choose to ignore it because it gives you something to bitch about - again.

The thread is about Russia, not the US. Its about their elections, not the US. Its about how their people got screwed out of their elections by fraud committed by Putin / Medyev / their political machine - NOT the US.

See the reoccurring theme here -

Russia

NOT the US.

Please learn the difference so you dont continue to drag legitimate threads, for instance a thread titled -

** -Thousands surge into Moscow to challenge Kremlin-**

Which discusses the finer points of Russian politics and how the people who got screwed out of an election feel towards the Kremlin, Putin, and the political party in question.

Off topic in order for you to get your typical yet ignorant tired tirade of I hate America BS into yet another thread.


Do you have any thoughts on Russia and Putins political party and their illegal actions based on the Russian system in place. Again I point out its about Russia and not the US, so make an effort to at least remain on topic. For help on what that looks like, for you and others apparently, feel free to pick any post that doesn't discuss the US. Feel free to take notes as well so we dont have to have this discussion, again, in the next "You Hate the US", err sorry I mean any thread that doesn't deal with the US.

Putins rolled back the laws to resemble those during the Soviet Union.
His Political party has stolen an election from the people.
They are being called out on it, and are taking the plays from the play-book of the current Syrian and Chinese government, which is beat and release after the coma sets in.

Your thoughts / excuses to justify their actions (Russia is who we are talking about, to help you and the other brown shirts remain on topic)?

reply to post by Xcathdra


You must be kidding. I know how the electoral college works. Bush didn't win in 2000 because he frauded in Florida. And he didn't win in 2004 because he frauded in Ohio.

And bashing the stolen elections is not bashing ``America``, it's bashing the scum in office and their corrupt way.

You really are trying to make it look like every attack I do against the corrupt US government is an attack on America, it's not. Americans are not their government. Most Americans despise their government... by your arguments, that makes most Americans ``American bashers``...

And I talked about America in my post, because it's about 1- election fraud (which America has been subject to) 2- protests (a very American way to show how you are pissed) 3- it's an American forum. Simple as that.

So keep trying attacking me for some BS reason (maybe you are drunk from Christmas), it ain't working.

And as I said earlier, Russians should protest and take down their illegitimate government and it's obvious there's been extensive fraud as I pointed out in that thread I authored :
Putin got 99.48% of the votes in CHECHNYA of all places!

reply to post by Vitchilo

So keep trying attacking me for some BS reason (maybe you are drunk from Christmas), it ain't working. And as I said earlier, Russians should protest and take down their illegitimate government and it's obvious there's been extensive fraud

Sounds like then your defending Bush winning it?

Russians should protest and take down their illegitimate government and it's obvious there's been extensive fraud

Wheres the proof please? maybe then the Canadians should also protest and take down their illegitimate government too since Harper didnt win fair either.

If you believe the russians protesters then you would also believe the russian traitor who sold out Russia in the first place whose now a puppet to the west secondly Vitchilo the anti protesters are communists and neo nazis as funny as the media calls them nationalists


And sadly they are just minority russia is a nation of 200 Million havent you forgotten?

Originally posted by dannotz
Wow, it's always great to see people standing up against corruption.

It takes a lot of guts to do this is Russia.

I wish them the best! It's probably FUHreezing there!

I don't know much about Russian politics, but i can take a guess and say that's it's not the most fair system out there.

People all around the world are taking a stand against corruption, what an exciting time to be alive.

Wonderful your actually your supporting Gorbachev then? whose a puppet to the west now?

People all around the world are taking a stand against corruption,

I dont know about that but even if theres a new govnerment in place corruptions will still happen.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter

Sounds like then your defending Bush winning it?

Wut? I didn't defend Bush winning anything. I just said he frauded the election twice and there should have been protests until that SOB was impeached or arrested for election fraud.

Wheres the proof please?

Please. Putin getting 99% of the vote in Chechnya is pure bull. And I linked that in my earlier post.

maybe then the Canadians should also protest and take down their illegitimate government too since Harper didnt win fair either.

I don't like Harper but where did he won unfairly? And yeah our government is illegitimate too since Harper is a puppet.

If you believe the russians protesters then you would also believe the russian traitor who sold out Russia in the first place whose now a puppet to the west

Russia is (right now) not a puppet of the west.

secondly Vitchilo the anti protesters are communists and neo nazis as funny as the media calls them nationalists

The anti-protesters are probably people hired by the government or just brainwashed morons.


Let's make thing clear. I support any genuine movement in Russia to have a not corrupt Russian government for Russians. Also I believe Putin frauded the election as the results in several areas of Russia show. And I also believe the west is funding these movement using NGOs to put back Russia under the NWO wing.

Russians, like us, have the right and the duty to have a government of their own, answerable to the people.

Mikhail Gorbachev calls for Putin to resign - The last Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev called on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to heed protester demands and quit politics.

Mikhail Gorbachev called on Prime Minister Vladimir Putin not to seek a third term as president next year.


He told the Moscow Echo radio: "I would advise Vladimir Putin to leave now. He has had three terms: two as president and one as prime minister. Three terms – that is enough."


Mr Gorbachev, 80, has been virulently critical of the elections that took place on December 4. Soon after the poll he said that the results of the poll should be annulled and new elections held due to "numerous falsifications and rigging."


"The results do not reflect the will of the people," Mr Gorbachev said at the time. "Therefore I think they [Russia's leaders] can only take one decision – annul the results of the election and hold new ones."


The former president was considering attending the march in central Moscow today, to which thousands ventured. He was, however, unable to appear but passed his greetings to the protestors.

It is very clear that Mr. Mikhail Gorbachev is and has been placed on active duty again, this, people, is how a person who has been manipulated in both a conscious and subconscious level is and reacts to stimulation without any contact.

...it only took two pages before his named appeared in the thread. In other forum's it took far more pages before his named appeared and even though the media is obviously using its already known methods to us all we still seem to be surprised at his intervention.



"have you been to the edge"

reply to post by pause4thought


80% Russkih dnt support Putin

Originally posted by Vitchilo
You must be kidding. I know how the electoral college works. Bush didn't win in 2000 because he frauded in Florida. And he didn't win in 2004 because he frauded in Ohio.

REally? Care to link to the court case that backs up your claim. Ironically enough you ignore the latest Obama fraud case out of Indiana, where there is an actual criminal investigation underway that has evidence that his name appeared on the ballot illegally. Quiet on that one though I see... Is it because its not about Bush?

Originally posted by Vitchilo
And bashing the stolen elections is not bashing ``America``, it's bashing the scum in office and their corrupt way.

No its bashing the US, which you do constantly in just about every single thread. Including this one, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the US.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
You really are trying to make it look like every attack I do against the corrupt US government is an attack on America, it's not. Americans are not their government. Most Americans despise their government... by your arguments, that makes most Americans ``American bashers``...

Uhm no... I dont make it look like that.. You do.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
And I talked about America in my post, because it's about 1- election fraud (which America has been subject to) 2- protests (a very American way to show how you are pissed) 3- it's an American forum. Simple as that.

Its about Russia, not America.. Feel free to continue to try and justify your BS though. Its humerous and does nothing but continue to prove my point. Even in your response, you cant simply admit you were wrong and remain on topic about Russia. Instead you continue to make it about the US, while even going so far as to speak for the majority of Americans.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
So keep trying attacking me for some BS reason (maybe you are drunk from Christmas), it ain't working.

Im not Canadian, so no im not drunk 24/7. See how easy it is to stereotype while looking like a complete moron?

Originally posted by Vitchilo
And as I said earlier, Russians should protest and take down their illegitimate government and it's obvious there's been extensive fraud as I pointed out in that thread I authored :
Putin got 99.48% of the votes in CHECHNYA of all places!

edit on 25-12-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

Which is not this thread, which has nothing to do with the US elections.

Ironic how that works.

Even Gorbachev is calling for Putin to resign..

reply to post by cerebralassassins


Well what he said was relevant to whats going on, and its not often he expresses his opinion on politics to this level. Being he is the one who helped usher in Glasnost in addition to the end of the Berlin wall, as well as the Soviet Empire.

I think its extremely important that he has voiced his opinion, as he is still respected by the people.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter


I was just saying good for them..i said i don't know anything about Russian politics..

But yea thanks.

Happy Holiday..