Mary * The Immaculate Conception * God's logical exception

I'm weary of that apparition now. After reading up on it I decided the false apparitions goals are to get Catholics to rebel against the successors of the apostles, the priests.

reply to post by Rustami

this reminds me of the image the ark of the covenant potrays having something to do with the two cherubs being made one with the cover

The bible is full of symbolism, metaphors and allegories. Everything that is written in that book has some deeper meaning under the surface which only the Lord's Holy Spirit can reveal to us.

The cover of the Ark is symbolism portraying the 2 God's becoming one. The Son in the Father, and the Father in the Son. It is a prophecy in itself the foreshadowing of Immanu'el (Yeshua), God merging with the flesh of Man in the form of the Savior King.

1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled.1 Trust2 in Goda;3 trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there4 to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back5 and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.6 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus answered, "I am8 the way9 and the truth10 and the life.11 No one comes to the Father except through me.12 If you really knew me, you would knowb my Father as well.13 From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.15 How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?16 The words I say to you are not just my own.17 Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.18 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith 19 in me will do what I have been doing.20 He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask 21 in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Take a look at what Philip said to Jesus:

"Lord show us the Father, and it will be enough for us"

Jesus replied: "Don't you know me Philip, even after i have been with you such a long time?"

Jesus was answering Philips question from the perspective of the Father. Philip asked to see the Father and Jesus told him "Do you not know me Philip? Have i been with you so long and still you do not know me?" (which was yet another time Jesus fulfilled the prophecy of Immanu'el "God in person")

Jesus never said the 3 words "I am God", instead he blatantly told them up front he was the Father.

John 1:1 "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God", yet another verse that makes Jesus God and a fulfilling of the Ark prophecy.

Originally posted by davereality
We are all born with a sin. Mary was born with out sin because she was chosen by God before she was born. The leads to her being able to incarnate Jesus.

As a catholic, just letting you know what is said in our faith.

Wrong, before were all born we were all chosen to be prophets of God. Under your logic none of us are sinners which runs contradictory to original sin doctrine. The only one to ever live a perfect life was Jesus Christ, which is why he was able to be the savior. No one else could do it. If Mary was without sin she could have been the ultimate sin offering, yet she was not because she was not without sin. When she saw Jesus on the cross do you not think she wished she could take his place? She could not because she was not worthy enough.

Mary was an Apostle, nothing more. Not the "queen of heaven" ishtar/hera/inanna. She was a vestial virgin of the temple, inducted into temple service at a young age as all girls of certain houses were. Mary was as close to a priestess as a woman could get except only male priests were allowed into the holy of holies.The vestial virgins were rather nun-like in their duties to the temple. Mary found favor with God because her heart was true to him in her faith. Her faith purified her as Abrahams faith purified him. It had nothing to do with her being perfect and sinless because she was neither and neither was Abraham.

Originally posted by 547000
I'm weary of that apparition now. After reading up on it I decided the false apparitions goals are to get Catholics to rebel against the successors of the apostles, the priests.

547000, hi,

I was like you, I doubted Medjugorje. To me, the messages were brief and
always the same. And the visionaries seemed worldly, but, I changed by
looking at the fruit of Medjugorje. The conversions of the pilgrims to Medjugorje
and the thousands of Confessions heard there. And the miracles! I have to look for one I am thinking of in particular to share.

Here though, posted today at Spiritdaily.com a witness to a miracle involving a famous Medjugorje priest.

~ ~ ~

12/9/11
The Disappearing Priest
Saint Elijah's Church


By Tony Zuniga

Fr. Jozo is considered by many to be a living saint. He went to prison to protect the six visionaries when the communists attempted to jail them. Maime [my wife] and I went to his Mass at St. Elijah’s church, about an hour from Medjugorje. And even though we were told that the Mass would be in Croatian, and that we would not understand it, we were asked to just simply look at Fr. Jozo and listen. God would do the rest. We did, and God did.

At the moment of Consecration, when the bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ during the Mass, Fr. Jozo repeated Jesus’s words, “This is My Body!” As he slowly raised the Sacred Host, I heard two loud thumps to my right. Startled, I turned my head in that direction. Two women who were standing nearby had just dropped hard on their knees, as if hit by a two by four. I found out later that one of them did not believe in Jesus, and the other one did not believe in Mary. Apparently their conversion took place in an instant.

Then my own miracle happened. When I turned back toward the altar to see Fr. Jozo, he disappeared right in front of my eyes. The Sacred Host remained floating in mid air, but Fr. Jozo just wasn’t there. I rubbed my eyes. I looked under and around the altar. All I could see was the Sacred Host, floating and vibrating, about three feet above the altar. My heart was pounding. So I turned to Maime to tell her to look, but could not reach her. The church was packed with people, and Maime had her head down in adoration. So I turned to the left, and saw another woman staring and looking towards the altar, shocked, just like I was.

After Mass, I went directly to this woman. Before I could ask her anything, she asked me, “Are you going to tell me about the disappearing priest?” My heart leaped with joy. For a moment I thought I had imagined things, or I was the only one who had experienced this. But this woman challenged me, “What did this miracle mean to you?”

I answered quickly and without hesitation. “Jesus Christ is above everyone and everything, including His own Mother, more important than the priest, and all of us. He is the center of our existence, the core of our being, the King and Lord of our lives, the Master of our destiny, our friend and personal Savior!” The woman smiled and said, “Good! Now, go out into the world and tell everyone you meet what you saw and experienced here.”

The miracle of Medjugorje, however, is not the outer, incredible manifestations we see with earthly eyes, but the continual transformation, in tremendous numbers, of the lives and souls of people who go there. Many who went to Medjugorje had never been inside their churches in forty or fifty years. Today, they are daily communicants. Marriages are strengthened and blessed. Young people who lived in sin, from drugs, to sex, to hatred, and kids who had abandoned their families and forgotten about Jesus are liberated from all evil, and now feel free and forgiven. Today, after returning from Medjugorje, they go out and preach the Good News wherever they find themselves. The people of God have returned to God and are now rejoicing.

Editor’s note: The above is an excerpt from the book Mother of the Most Beautiful Love in the World, Copyright 1995.

Originally posted by colbe
This belief Jesus had brothers and sisters is nonsense. I will look up that Matthew reference.

I love you all and don't wish to argue but the world would know of Jesus' brothers and sisters and their children. Why did Our Lord never speak of them? Joseph died before Our Lord's three year ministry. Who is the person Mary married and why is there no account of him or their marriage in history? What of Mary's vow of virginity made in the Temple? Why did Jesus give His mother to the care of John from the Cross if there were "brothers" to care for her?

It comes from no authority to interpret Scripture and who knows, a desire to protest Mary's perpetual virginity. Why? The Holy Family is very very special.

Read a Catholic Bible, the English translation of the Latin Vulgate, the first Bible.
It's called the Douay-Rheims Bible. The footnotes will really help.

The Epistle of Jude is not included in the Canon for a reason. It is not divinely
inspired.


www.drbo.org...

Sorry colbe, the book of Jude IS canonical. It sits between 3 John and Revelation in most bibles without apocrypha.

The reason we don't have more info on the direct family of Jesus is that they are, by the time of Jesus ministry, a side issue of no importance to His mission of bringing about His Kingdom.

Jesus gave Mary into the care of the Disciple John because John was Jesus closest friend (the disciple who Jesus loved). John was wealthy (he inherited a very successful fishing business that had several boats and several employess, one of whom was his brother James) and had a large house (it was used for meetings of over 100 people in the early church - Acts 12:12) and could best give Mary the support she needed in her later life (Read the letter of 2 John which he wrote to Mary). Remember that Mary was a disciple, like John and Jesus brothers did not become disciples until after Jesus had died & risen again.

The Latin Vulgate document was quite late in comparison to many other early biblical documents. The original new testament documents were all written in Greek (as was the septuagint old testament) and there are translational errors in the Vulgate source documents. The Douay Rheims is a transalation of the Vulgate and contains the same errors and inclusions not in earlier documents.

Originally posted by Tayesin
It would seem historically, that this 'Mary' had children by another husband before taking up with 'Joseph'.. the evidence being that she had an older son and I think two daughters prior to 'Jesus'.

In the West we do not understand the ancient Hebrew Marriage system.. and so our thinking about Jesus' family is very much incorrect.

In those days, a women was considered a Virgin until she bore her husband in marriage a Son.. no matter how many daughters she had prior to birthing a Son, and no matter how many marriages she may have had prior to the last one. The Hebrew Marriage was a very unusual afair to say the least.. and so it is worthwhile learning as much as you can about it in order to gain a clearer perception on your Westernised Scriptures.

There is no historic data to indicate the Mary had a previous husband.

Despite the vagaries that could have occurred under Hebrew traditions, the gospel accounts were written in Greek and are quite clear that she had not "known" any man when the Holy Spirit "overcame" her. It is also quite adamant that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus, not Joseph.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by colbe

 

Mary was born into Original Sin like everyone of us, the only exception was Jesus who was concieved from the Holy Spirit who is not of this world (possibly 100% from God and having no human DNA, which could be a part of what made him holy). Mary found favor with God because she was a vestial virgin of the temple. Young girls at a certain age from certain families would be inducted into the temple for God's work for a certain amount of time and she was one of those. Because she was righteous and had a heart true to God he found favor with her and chose her to bear the light of the world (Jesus).

Trying to say Mary was without sin and was holy is goddess worship, what the catholics do as they call her the "Queen of Heaven" which is a pagan title attributed to Ishtar/Hera/Inanna.

The Vestal Virgins were not Hebrew, they attended the goddess Vesta.

The confusion probably arose because early popes accepted the pagan Vestal Virgins due to their power in Rome. The chief Vestal was also a member of the College of Pontiffs. This acceptance of the Vestals continued for nearly 400 years until Emporer Theodosius I disbanded the order in 394 AD.

reply to post by chr0naut

You have repeated that Mary is sinless but you have not provided any support for the statement.

If you pause to think about it.. it makes sense that God would create a very special woman to be the mother of Jesus...a woman born without original sin..and who had not sinned.

What did Jesus do to save mankind.. he shed His blood and gave his life. That blood was and still is very powerful, if it washed away every sin known to mankind.

Where did Jesus first get His blood?.. ..in the womb.. through His mother.

Does it not make sense that the Son of God ..who was Holiness made into the flesh..would have a pure vessel from which that blood came forth to feed Him in the womb?

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by chr0naut

 

You have repeated that Mary is sinless but you have not provided any support for the statement.

If you pause to think about it.. it makes sense that God would create a very special woman to be the mother of Jesus...a woman born without original sin..and who had not sinned.

What did Jesus do to save mankind.. he shed His blood and gave his life. That blood was and still is very powerful, if it washed away every sin known to mankind.

Where did Jesus first get His blood?.. ..in the womb.. through His mother.

Does it not make sense that the Son of God ..who was Holiness made into the flesh..would have a pure vessel from which that blood came forth to feed Him in the womb?

edit on 10-12-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

Yes, it does make sense as a possibility, however, nothing in scripture supports it.

In the Revelation, Christ warns about the fate of those who add to, or remove from scripture.

reply to post by chr0naut

In the Revelation, Christ warns about the fate of those who add to, or remove from scripture.

I always understood that to be pertaining to revelations..that specific book of prophecy.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As far as scripture goes.... How can we be so sure that there wasn't at some point books that were written , that were not included in what we understand today as the Holy Bible?

I don't know enough history on the bible.. and its origins and translations..so I will leave that to the scholars.

That being said ..the focal point is still Jesus..and from my understanding of what the virgin Mary says and asks us to pray for ..her focus always points to salvation of our souls through Jesus.

Originally posted by chr0naut

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by colbe

 

Mary was born into Original Sin like everyone of us, the only exception was Jesus who was concieved from the Holy Spirit who is not of this world (possibly 100% from God and having no human DNA, which could be a part of what made him holy). Mary found favor with God because she was a vestial virgin of the temple. Young girls at a certain age from certain families would be inducted into the temple for God's work for a certain amount of time and she was one of those. Because she was righteous and had a heart true to God he found favor with her and chose her to bear the light of the world (Jesus).

Trying to say Mary was without sin and was holy is goddess worship, what the catholics do as they call her the "Queen of Heaven" which is a pagan title attributed to Ishtar/Hera/Inanna.

The Vestal Virgins were not Hebrew, they attended the goddess Vesta.

The confusion probably arose because early popes accepted the pagan Vestal Virgins due to their power in Rome. The chief Vestal was also a member of the College of Pontiffs. This acceptance of the Vestals continued for nearly 400 years until Emporer Theodosius I disbanded the order in 394 AD.

edit on 10/12/2011 by chr0naut because: (no reason given)

Well you get the idea. I was talking about the temple virgins even if i got the vestial parts wrong.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by chr0naut

 

In the Revelation, Christ warns about the fate of those who add to, or remove from scripture.

I always understood that to be pertaining to revelations..that specific book of prophecy.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As far as scripture goes.... How can we be so sure that there wasn't at some point books that were written , that were not included in what we understand today as the Holy Bible?

I don't know enough history on the bible.. and its origins and translations..so I will leave that to the scholars.

That being said ..the focal point is still Jesus..and from my understanding of what the virgin Mary says and asks us to pray for ..her focus always points to salvation of our souls through Jesus.

gabby,

Thanks! Mary directs souls to her Son. The point and theme of all her messages.

And for the 3rd time, it is written in Scripture. Mary is full of grace, meaning
she is full of God's presence. Since she is "full" and that is God the Father
declaring it, Mary has no sin. Who would wish otherwise?

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Non-Catholic Christian should not ask, where is that in Scripture? The Church
is God's authority not Scripture. The Church canonized Scripture...SO...her
interpretation of the Bible is correct, it is God given. Again, read 1Timothy 3:15, the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Talk of a mystery, never been stated, Chapter and verse. Where is Martin Luther's "Sola Scriptura" written in Scripture?

This is beautiful, St. Bridget was given a vision of Our Lord's birth.

The Church Fathers put it this way, Our Lord's birth was like light passing through glass. Mary remained ever virgin. God honored her vow of virginity. Mary did not suffer the usual discomfort and pains of childbirth.
The consequence of Original Sin. Mary had no sin.

+ + +

Our lady did not suffer any pain when giving birth to her Son, that the physical closure of her virgin womb remained intact even in the very act of giving birth (for Christ passed through without causing any harm to her virginal integrity), and that the Christ Child already knew all created things and loved each of us in his humanity from the very first moment of his conception (thus, while an infant, he was already a rational man).
While all of these articles were firmly rooted in the magisterial teachings of the Church and in the doctrines of the Church Fathers, it is always good to compare our theological insights with the lived faith of the great saints. We will not be the least surprised to discover that the mystical revelations given to St. Bridget of Sweden (surely, one of the greatest saint-mystics of the Church) wholly confirm all that the saint-theologians have taught and all that the Magisterium has declared.

This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about

The following is taken from the revelations given to St. Bridget regarding the Nativity of our Lord –

“When I was present by the manger of the Lord in Bethlehem I beheld a Virgin of extreme beauty wrapped in a white mantle and a delicate tunic through which I perceived her virginal body. With her was an old man of great honesty and they had with them an ox and ass. These entered the cave and the man having tied them to the manger went out and brought in to the Virgin a lighted candle which having done he again went outside so as not to be present at the birth. Then the Virgin pulled off the shoes from her feet, drew off the white mantle that enveloped her, removed the veil from her head laying it beside her, thus remaining only in her tunic with her beautiful golden hair falling loosely over her shoulders. Then she produced two small linen cloths, and two woolen ones of exquisite purity and fineness which she had brought to wrap round the Child to be born, and two other small cloths to cover His head, and these too she put beside her. When all was thus prepared the Virgin knelt with great veneration in an attitude of prayer; her back was to the manger, her face uplifted to heaven and turned toward the East.

“Then, her hands extended and her eyes fixed on the sky she stood as in an ecstasy, lost in contemplation, in a rapture of divine sweetness. And while she stood thus in prayer I saw the Child in her womb move; suddenly in a moment she gave birth to her own Son from whom radiated such ineffable light and splendour that the sun was not comparable to it while the divine light totally annihilated the material light of St. Joseph's candle. So sudden and instantaneous was this birth that I could neither discover nor discern by what means it had occurred. All of a sudden I saw the glorious Infant lying on the ground naked and shining, His body pure from any soil or impurity. Then I heard the singing of the angels of miraculous sweetness and beauty. When the Virgin felt she had borne her Child immediately she worshipped Him, her hands clasped in honour and reverence saying: ‘Be welcome my God, my Lord, my Son.’

“Then, as the Child was whining and trembling from the cold and hardness of the floor where He was lying, He stretched out His arms imploring her to raise Him to the warmth of her maternal love. So His Mother took Him in her arms, pressed Him to her breast and cheek, and warmed Him with great joy and tender compassion. She then sat down on the ground laying the Child on her lap and at once began to bestow on Him much care tying up His small body, His legs and arms in long cloths, and enveloped His head in the linen garments, and when this was done Joseph entered, and prostrating himself on the floor he wept for joy. And in no way was the Virgin changed by giving birth, the color of her face remained the same nor did her strength decline. She and Joseph put the Child in the manger, and worshipped Him on their knees with immense joy until the arrival of the Kings who recognized the Son from the likeness to His Mother.”


www.spiritdaily.com...

reply to post by colbe


The bible says that none are without sin. Not none except Mary were sinless. I am pretty sure if Mary were sinless this would have been mentioned. Now she may have been blameless as was Paul. But as Paul admits blameless most certainly was not sinless. Blameless means she never broke the 10 commandments or the Levitical laws. Sinless is something entirely different.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by chr0naut

 

You have repeated that Mary is sinless but you have not provided any support for the statement.

If you pause to think about it.. it makes sense that God would create a very special woman to be the mother of Jesus...a woman born without original sin..and who had not sinned.

What did Jesus do to save mankind.. he shed His blood and gave his life. That blood was and still is very powerful, if it washed away every sin known to mankind.

Where did Jesus first get His blood?.. ..in the womb.. through His mother.

Does it not make sense that the Son of God ..who was Holiness made into the flesh..would have a pure vessel from which that blood came forth to feed Him in the womb?

edit on 10-12-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

Actually Mary could not have been without original sin. As Jesus was born with original sin. You see he was tempted in every way we are. So with that being said he was born of the Spirit which obviously was without sin and Mary. If Jesus was not born with original sin than he could not have been tempted in every way we are. But the bible clearly states that we have a High Priest who was tempted in every way we are, but without sin.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by colbe

 

The bible says that none are without sin. Not none except Mary were sinless. I am pretty sure if Mary were sinless this would have been mentioned. Now she may have been blameless as was Paul. But as Paul admits blameless most certainly was not sinless. Blameless means she never broke the 10 commandments or the Levitical laws. Sinless is something entirely different.

sac,

The Bible itself says not everything is contained in Scripture. "Bible Alone"
is Martin Luther's idea not Gods.

It was mentioned, God the Father's first words of greeting for Mary were
"Hail full of grace." Protestant translations were changed for obvious
reasons. "Grace" is the presence of God. Mary has no sin. Wouldn't
you want it that way? Mary carried God inside her.

How come you accept the exception of Enoch and Elijah but can't see
God can make other exceptions?


take care,

colbe

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by chr0naut

 

You have repeated that Mary is sinless but you have not provided any support for the statement.

If you pause to think about it.. it makes sense that God would create a very special woman to be the mother of Jesus...a woman born without original sin..and who had not sinned.

What did Jesus do to save mankind.. he shed His blood and gave his life. That blood was and still is very powerful, if it washed away every sin known to mankind.

Where did Jesus first get His blood?.. ..in the womb.. through His mother.

Does it not make sense that the Son of God ..who was Holiness made into the flesh..would have a pure vessel from which that blood came forth to feed Him in the womb?

edit on 10-12-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

Such a beautiful explanation, you make a great apologist gabby.

Originally posted by 547000
I'm weary of that apparition now. After reading up on it I decided the false apparitions goals are to get Catholics to rebel against the successors of the apostles, the priests.

I'm not sure what apparition you are speaking of... but all of the apparitions I have looked into seem to have the same theme..which seems to be how much Mary and Jesus love their beloved priests..and Mary continually asks for prayers for her "beloved priests".

They want conversion and repentance from all.. and as well for their priests who have the great blessings of performing the sacraments.

There is no denying that some priests have sinned grievously against the sacred heart of Jesus.. and this must cause great pain and suffering for Him, His mother and the saints.

I have only read how they want sacrifice and penance ..and for souls to turn their lives back to God. I have never read to rebel against the priests.. only to pray for them.

The only thing I have ever read Jesus and Mary asking to rebel against is satan.. and it is done through love and the power of prayer...especially the rosary...as well as the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

reply to post by colbe

Such a beautiful explanation, you make a great apologist gabby.

Ok..now I have to go read up on what an apologist is..

I only see myself as someone who fell away from my faith in Jesus and the guidance of His dear mother...someone who is very unworthy of their pure love..yet cling to it as my only hope.

I have such a long way to go ..before I can truly say I am doing their will..and I battle my demons daily.

All I see myself as colbe is weak sinner.. who's been given the grace of seeing where salvation lays..and the tools to get there... Now I have to work hard at getting past my sinful nature and using those tools properly..meaning the tools of prayer..and the sacraments of the church..mainly reconciliation and the Eucharist.

I am eternally grateful for all prayers said on my behalf.

May the love of Jesus and His most beautiful Holy mother guide us all to do the will of the Father .

Edit:

Apologetics is the attempt to make a defense for the Christian faith. If you do that in any way, then you are an apologist. In fact, you are commanded to be an apologist by Peter: "But sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence,

Now I understand what you meant by apologetic.. Thank you for making me look it up..

reply to post by gabby2011


You might want to look up noted false apparitions, like Bayside. What happens is people believe in it and start questioning the Church's authority. Even the apparitions egg them on by talking about evil bishops and evil priests. In all approved cases what happens is the apparitions tell them to obey authority. Jesus promised that His church would not be succeeded against by even the gates of hell. So that claim is to cause schisms for the church.

In 1882, Christ revealed to the stigmatist, Marie Julie Jahenny of La Fraudais, France that:

"In the last days, a seemingly unlimited amount of FALSE REVELATIONS will arise from hell like a swarm of flies; a last attempt of Satan to choke and to destroy the efficacy of the TRUE REVELATIONS by false ones."

www.newjerusalem.com...