How can OWS possibly support open borders / illegal immigration?

Originally posted by mastahunta

The problem is enforcing those laws without becoming fairly fascist, empowering the government
to enforce the laws is the catch 22.

There are over 300 nations on earth. Most of them manage to keep their borders more or less shut without becoming "fascist."

The US borders are open not because its impossible to staunch the flow, but because somebody wants them open. The right-wing wants open borders because more comptetition for scarce jobs keeps personnel costs down for businesses. Big business loves open borders, globalization, and cheap labor, whether it's in a Chinese sweat-shop or a US sweat-shop employing illegal immigrants. Meanwhile, the left-wings wants open borders because they feel immigrants will swell their base of voters, and they are partly in favor of it due to their cult-like ideological obession with race.

With both the left and the right pushing for open borders, the ultimate losers are the American people.

reply to post by silent thunder


Yes, I support the rule of law, but I also realize that we have to look at the practicality of enforcing such laws against people that are already here and part of our communities.

Look, I understand where you are coming from. Not so long ago I would have whole-heatedly agreed. There comes a point where we have to realize that deportation is not wise, nor achievable. Even with immigration being a problem, American was at 4% unemployment or lower. Loss of jobs is in no way tied to immigration. It has to do with the business environment and the decisions they make at a corporate level.

So we can decide to put more guards on the border and cut military spending, but how do we pay to deport illegals? Once the guards are there, do we give them orders to shoot on site? Is that what America is about?

I don't see what the problem with DREAM act is, I don't think we should punish young persons for trying to pursue a better education and we should give them an opportunity to help our country.

Originally posted by TupacShakur
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Uhhh.....that has nothing to do with the protests. Illegal immigrants didn't hijack our government and crash the economy.

Yeah I think they did......

reply to post by jheated5


I wasn't aware that illegal immigrants lobbied for looser regulations, got appointed to positions of power and influenced legislation, then were involved in reckless business practices. Those pesky immigrants, always circumventing the law and becoming multi-millionaire CEOs/Secretaries of Treasury....

Originally posted by silent thunder

Originally posted by mastahunta

The problem is enforcing those laws without becoming fairly fascist, empowering the government
to enforce the laws is the catch 22.

There are over 300 nations on earth. Most of them manage to keep their borders more or less shut without becoming "fascist."

The US borders are open not because its impossible to staunch the flow, but because somebody wants them open. The right-wing wants open borders because more comptetition for scarce jobs keeps personnel costs down for businesses. Big business loves open borders, globalization, and cheap labor, whether it's in a Chinese sweat-shop or a US sweat-shop employing illegal immigrants. Meanwhile, the left-wings wants open borders because they feel immigrants will swell their base of voters, and they are partly in favor of it due to their cult-like ideological obession with race.

With both the left and the right pushing for open borders, the ultimate losers are the American people.

I am not saying that I am for immigration, I am against empowering the police who will
surely engage in profiling if they are given some of the avenues that have been suggested.
The left wing does not want to swell their ranks, you are guessing at the motive, it is simple
because they do not care what race they are. I care because I am a left winger, but I think
paying for immigrants right now is not smart, we should focus on Americans for the time being.

Originally posted by TupacShakur
reply to post by jheated5

 

I wasn't aware that illegal immigrants lobbied for looser regulations, got appointed to positions of power and influenced legislation, then were involved in reckless business practices. Those pesky immigrants, always circumventing the law and becoming multi-millionaire CEOs/Secretaries of Treasury....

Nice

It is a hot-button issue, if the corporate whore bags are outnumbered call in the immigrant phobes
next!

reply to post by TupacShakur


Just because the things you mentioned are important doesn't mean illegal immigrantion isn't important.

As I stated on the first page, a flood of people willing to work for sub-minimum-wages destroys the ability of millions of Americans to earn a living wage doing manual labor. This was quite possible in the old days. It's still possible in nations with well-protected borders and tough immigration laws like Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. This is why those nations (despite other woes) still have strong middle classes.

The problems you mentioned are also valid and need to be tackled. But so does illegal immigration. In fact, the ILLEGAl hiring of ILLEGAL immigrants is one of the "reckless business practices" you mention.

Right so what do you think should happen to illegal immigrants that came here, because they were lured by these companies? They have now started families and have US born children attending schools? Should these people be deported back to Mexico without giving it a second thought about what is going to happen to those children growing up without parents?

reply to post by silent thunder


The majority feel that way? You have something to base this on?

You wouldn't just be guessing there would you?

What this issue has to do with ows.. I have no idea. But I'll play along for the lulz.

I think our borders should be strictly controlled... basically letting what amounts to free passage one way or another is madness.

And I support ows.

go figure

Originally posted by muse7
Right so what do you think should happen to illegal immigrants that came here, because they were lured by these companies? They have now started families and have US born children attending schools? Should these people be deported back to Mexico without giving it a second thought about what is going to happen to those children growing up without parents?

Yes. I don't care what happens to them.

I consider them invaders, and criminals who break the law.

My concern is with Americans (of whatever race, including Mexicans who have done the correct paperwork and come here legally).

I think the "anchor baby" scam is an abomination.

reply to post by silent thunder


But those kids are American, they were born here.

You don't care if these kids grow up without parents?

reply to post by silent thunder

Just because the things you mentioned are important doesn't mean illegal immigrantion isn't important.

I agree, illegal immigration is a topic that should be addressed, but this protest is not the time or place. I can name 10 other issues that I believe are important and need to be addressed, but I don't think that side issues that aren't unifying such as immigration should be a part of the protest. Ridding the government of corruption is something that all people support, certain positions on issues like immigration are not.

As I stated on the first page, a flood of people willing to work for sub-minimum-wages destroys the ability of millions of Americans to earn a living wage doing manual labor. This was quite possible in the old days. It's still possible in nations with well-protected borders and tough immigration laws like Taiwan and Japan. This is why those nations (despite other woes) still have strong middle classes.

This should be addressed after the preventable banking practices which crashed the economy are dealt with, which cost millions their jobs and homes, not to mention the bankers controlling the economic and other policies by using their fortures that they've amassed through screwing people over.

The problems you mentioned are also valid and need to be tackled. But so does illegal immigration.

A corrupt government is more important than immigration dude. This isn't even debateable.

In fact, the ILLEGAl hiring of ILLEGAL immigrants is one of the "reckless business practices" you mention.

I was referring to things like derivates, rating subprime loans as AAA, and credit default swaps, but I guess the American populus should be up in arms about people trying to come to this country and make a better life for themselves.....:shk:

Originally posted by muse7
reply to post by silent thunder

 

But those kids are American, they were born here.

You don't care if these kids grow up without parents?

This is a tough issue.

In this case, I would say we need to stop the "anchor baby" laws immediately. Perhaps a "grandfather clause" could be enacted to let some people with children stay here.

I think you should stop trying to masquerade your agenda.

I don't think OWS would subscribe to such right wing agendas like the ones you have.

The founding fathers intended it to be this way, and I don't support any movement from right wingers to change this.

I do agree that our immigration system needs to be fixed and these issues need to be fixed in a manner that would not break up families and leave children orphaned because they got caught in the crossfire of politics.

This is not Germany, Australia or some other country. This is the United States of America.

Our constitution was written in order to make this the land of opportunity, and I don't support anyone or any group that wants to change this.

reply to post by muse7


If you're born in the US but your parents are here illegally.. you shouldn't be considered a citizen.

That's my opinion. Certainly not the most compassionate view. But it certainly makes sense to me.

Originally posted by muse7
I think you should stop trying to masquerade your agenda.

I don't think OWS would subscribe to such right wing agendas like the ones you have.

The founding fathers intended it to be this way, and I don't support any movement from right wingers to change this.

I do agree that our immigration system needs to be fixed and these issues need to be fixed in a manner that would not break up families and leave children orphaned because they got caught in the crossfire of politics.

"Masquarde my agenda" That's the ultimate strawman. And an insult. "You don't really believe what you say. You believe something else because I say you do."

I call out things I see as wrong, be they left, right, or center. I have ZERO ideological agenda.

Don't pin labels on me that have nothing to do with what I really think. It's a lame and weak argumentative strategy...exactly the same strategy those people use who accuse the OWSers of "really being communist maoists" who "masquade as something else." Lame lame lame.

We all came from immigrants. Much less who even wants to pick fruits, build roads, slaughter innocent animals at slaughter houses, dig ditches, fix roofs, and other laborious tasks? You put blame to the 'illegal' worker, yet it's a United Statesian hiring them. Might as well blame them for 9/11, swine flu, IMF, aids, and global warming ... think about it...

reply to post by silent thunder


Yet you haven't provided a single source that states that OWS supports "open borders" and "endless illegal immigration"

reply to post by GmoS719


Really? I think the State governments involved might disagree with you.

Sure other things are worse drains on the economy than illegal immigration.

That does not mean that illegal immigration is not also a drain... it clearly is.

Emotions are coloring what you see as fact perhaps?