How can OWS possibly support open borders / illegal immigration?

Apparently, if you'd like to send illegal Mexicans back to their country so they might attempt to fix Mexico's problems, all states should enact laws like Alabama did. However, the US will lose its home grown outsourcing. Americans are not taking the jobs Mexicans left behind in Alabama. That says a lot about both cultures.

Maybe we should pull out exploiting American corporations from Mexico. That might set an example.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Yes, I support the rule of law, but I also realize that we have to look at the practicality of enforcing such laws against people that are already here and part of our communities.

Look, I understand where you are coming from. Not so long ago I would have whole-heatedly agreed. There comes a point where we have to realize that deportation is not wise, nor achievable. Even with immigration being a problem, American was at 4% unemployment or lower. Loss of jobs is in no way tied to immigration. It has to do with the business environment and the decisions they make at a corporate level.

So we can decide to put more guards on the border and cut military spending, but how do we pay to deport illegals? Once the guards are there, do we give them orders to shoot on site? Is that what America is about?

edit on 24-11-2011 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

Loss of jobs is in no way tied to immigration? Every time ICE deports thousands of illegals, thousands of citizens quickly and easily take up those jobs!

Illegal immigration costs us billions of dollars in educating their children, welfare, health care costs etc.

Deportation is possible. Take away the jobs and freebies and they will self deport. Many have already.

Originally posted by muse7
Right so what do you think should happen to illegal immigrants that came here, because they were lured by these companies? They have now started families and have US born children attending schools? Should these people be deported back to Mexico without giving it a second thought about what is going to happen to those children growing up without parents?

The parents of these children knew the full risks before coming here. The thing with the kids being American just because they were born here is ridiculous. That law was meant for the children of slaves long ago.

reply to post by muse7

Yet you haven't provided a single source that states that OWS supports "open borders" and "endless illegal immigration"

The OPs issue is that they haven't come out strongly against it. I believe.

anyways, guys, you need to calm down, the OP is saying something meaningful. Illegal immigration, and the illegal practice of hiring them under the table, has indeed caused a problem with the economy. Add to that the off shore outsourcing of jobs, and you've got a massive issue.

but I do have some issues with that. Illegals can't vote right? I was pretty sure they couldn't vote, so that isn't going to "grow" and political parties "base" other than having more people holding signs who aren't actually involved in the political process.

Open borders and amnesty are not the answer. In my opinion, those "illegals" should be given the opportunity to become legal citizens in such a way that they aren't deported while the process takes place. Certain countries/races get preferential treatment when it comes to immigration (saudi arabia for one) and I don't really agree with that at all.

But lets not pretend that each one of those illegals is taking a job away from an American. This past harvest season I saw countless, COUNTLESS, articles about the fact that many farms had crops dying in the fields because no one wanted to get paid to harvest them. You can't blame the illegals for that.

But the thread title, much like most OWS threads (pro or anti) is quite misleading. OWS as a whole doesn't support open borders or amnesty, they are trying to end the corruption that has a strangle hold on the economy and government.

I agree, addressing the illegal immigration problem should be on the list, but not anywhere near the top, in fact, probably not on the first few pages.

The fact is, if every single illegal worker was deported tomorrow, half of america would grind to a halt, because most American's feel above that type of work. It's a fact, and is the reason why so many fields never got harvested this season.

Yeah, I don't get it either.

They hate free trade, but support open borders [not really though since they only really support an open border with Mexico] that's pretty illogical imo but whatever........

I support both free trade and open borders though since without free trade the U.S as we know it wouldn't exist and without immigration the U.S as we know it wouldn't exist and both are good for our economy.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by muse7

 

Yet you haven't provided a single source that states that OWS supports "open borders" and "endless illegal immigration"

The OPs issue is that they haven't come out strongly against it. I believe.

anyways, guys, you need to calm down, the OP is saying something meaningful. Illegal immigration, and the illegal practice of hiring them under the table, has indeed caused a problem with the economy. Add to that the off shore outsourcing of jobs, and you've got a massive issue.

Yes, you are correct, that is closer to my actual opinion, thank you. I didn't state it well in the title, which could imply support. I believe one can infer support in that most people participating are self-described progressives. (note I said most not all), and the general progressive position is in favor of open borders. Open borders and amnisty were also in that older "list of demands" that can't really be taken seriously -- it was the work of an individual, and the OWS website explicitly denies that it represents the movement as a whole -- nevertheless, the fact that OWS keeps it on their webside implies at least they cannot be said to be in direct opposition to that viewpoint.

But ultimately, it is as you descrbed above: I feel they need to take a proactive stance against it because it is a very significant source of job instability in the US and will increasingly be moreso as time goes by. It also puts heavy pressure on social services and community resources.

...but I do have some issues with that. Illegals can't vote right? I was pretty sure they couldn't vote, so that isn't going to "grow" and political parties "base" other than having more people holding signs who aren't actually involved in the political process.

The theory is that they will be given amnisty and eventually become citizens and have the right to vote, and they will vote Democrat out of gratitude and self-interest. It's a longer-term project.

But lets not pretend that each one of those illegals is taking a job away from an American. This past harvest season I saw countless, COUNTLESS, articles about the fact that many farms had crops dying in the fields because no one wanted to get paid to harvest them. You can't blame the illegals for that....The fact is, if every single illegal worker was deported tomorrow, half of america would grind to a halt, because most American's feel above that type of work. It's a fact, and is the reason why so many fields never got harvested this season.

Agreed, and it's sad. Pathetic, really. I did farmwork as a boy, growing up, every day. Later when I was a young adult I did all kinds of manual labor...light factory work, day laboring, etc. Americans should be doing that kind of work, especially when young. I think its unhealty spiritually and physically for Americans to be living the sedentary lives they are. Older people should have a chance to do less physically taxing and more mentally challenging work, but the young should make the most of their strengths. Manual labor makes good-looking bodies, hard workers, and disciplined minds.

And I agree with you this cannot be blamed on the illegals at all, the fault lies purely with the Americans. It
represents a decadence and rot in the culture, and it should be addressed.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Immigrants, en mass, will never be deported. Never have, never will!

They have actually tried to in the past, back in the 30s and the 50s. People have been trying to get rid of Mexicans for a long time.

Link

People need to stop blaming Mexican Nationals for the problems that the U.S. citizens have with their government.

reply to post by silent thunder


They're basically coming here because our "Free Trade Agreements" with their nations have absolutely screwed over their economy. In Mexico - the place where corn was invented - it's cheaper to buy corn shipped from Nebraska, than it is to buy local, for example. This puts Mexican farmers out of work. The same stories can be found all the way down int osouth America, paired with political instability.

personally, I've always been of the mind that if you're desperate enough to hoof it through the Mojave, or build a boat out of a refrigerator box and ping pong balls to float to Florida, well, welcome aboard, you're a better American than most Americans. Legally speaking, "illegal immigration" is simply a specialized form of jaywalking - right down to being treated as a very minor misdemeanor.

I've never shared the conservative's seething hatred of brown Papists who talk funny, so I can't follow in their rants and screams for mass murder at the border, SWAT assaults on people residing here, and tearing apart families over what really does amount to a minor paperwork violation.

As far as this OWS supporter is concerned, there isn't any damn worry about the "illegal aliens" themselves - people are people, even if half our nation's voting population thinks anyone with melanin belongs in a zoo. It's the conditions that create the desire for such migrants, and the conditions htey receive upon arrival.

1) NAFTA, CAFTA, and the Cuban embargo need to all expire and pass away. US meddling in the affairts of Latin American governments needs to halt immediately. no more School of the Americas BS to keep these nations unstable and dependent on us.

2) Enforce regulatory practices on businesses that hire undocumented migrants. Workers have workers' rights, period. When these folks hop the fence, they find that they are limited to what amounts to a sort of slavery - they give long hours for a chance at a wage, with high probability of not receiving said wages, or being locked into a sharecropper-style debt slavery to their "bosses." Usually all in a dangerous work environment. What I'm getting at is, don't target businesses for hiring undocumented workers - frankly, the local McDonalds is not a branch of the border agency, and can't really be expected to do that job. But damn sure make sure all of their workers, regardless of immigration status, are held to the standards of American workers.

3) All "militarizing the border" will do is make people die - either by getting shot, or by suffering worse exposure via the "safe routes" - and that does nothing to curb other sources of illegal immigration, such as people on expired visas "disappearing." People are going to come here, for as long as we exist, whether or not they have the half-dozen grand to pay for that privilege or not. Our immigration policy needs a strong revision, so that our new migrants are judged on matters of security and kill, rather than wealth and connections. I'd rather have a penniless Cuban mechanic than a filthy-rich scion of an Italian political family, you know?

In short, there's no damn reason to "protest illegal immigration" It is not, in and of itself, a problem. The conditions that CAUSE it, however, are founded in what we're already protesting.

Originally posted by Rockdisjoint
They hate free trade, but support open borders [not really though since they only really support an open border with Mexico] that's pretty illogical imo but whatever........

There's a difference between free trade, and the "Free Trade" policies brewed up in Washington. Actual free trade is people engaging in business. Free trade policy is a tributary system.

And, we border exactly two countries. Canada and Mexico. We have an open border with Canada. So, logically anyone in the US supporting opening the borders... means opening the one border that remains: Mexico.

Well, okay, technically our national waters border Cuba, but we all think that ban should be killed, too. I guess there's Alaska's maritime border with Russia as well... but that one's pretty wide-open anyway. More Russians in Alaska than in Russia, last time I was there

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by silent thunder

 

They're basically coming here because our "Free Trade Agreements" with their nations have absolutely screwed over their economy. In Mexico - the place where corn was invented - it's cheaper to buy corn shipped from Nebraska, than it is to buy local, for example. This puts Mexican farmers out of work. The same stories can be found all the way down int osouth America, paired with political instability.

Agreed. The free trade agreements have damaged both Mexico and the United States. They should never have been implemented in the first place, and they should be rolled back as soon as possible.

personally, I've always been of the mind that if you're desperate enough to hoof it through the Mojave, or build a boat out of a refrigerator box and ping pong balls to float to Florida, well, welcome aboard, you're a better American than most Americans.

Be that as it may, it has no bearing on the issue of borders. Borders delineate nations. This is not about personal character, its about law and economics. As I stated on the first and second pages, secure borders mean job protection for Americans. Supply and demand shows that smaller labor pools command higher wages across the board, at all levels. Its not a matter of simply competing for "menial labor" like housecleaning and vegetible-picking (which I think Americans should be doing anyway, but that's another issue...see my post above). It impacts plumbers, carpenters, construction workers, electicians, other tradesmen. Not to mention security personnel, retail workers, and factory workers, as well as all kinds of non-menial farmers...in short, what used to be the backbone of the entire American working and middle class. These jobs used to be secure and command living wages. Thanks to illegal immigration, in many cases they no longer do. This an enormously significant issue impacting millions of Americans, and its getting no attention from people protesting a broken system. As long as this issue remains unadressed, the system will remain broken, even if much-needed reform in other areas is implemented.

I've never shared the conservative's seething hatred of brown Papists who talk funny, so I can't follow in their rants and screams for mass murder at the border, SWAT assaults on people residing here, and tearing apart families over what really does amount to a minor paperwork violation.

Both race and left-righ ideological postions are totally irrelvant to my argument, which is straight-up economics. As I have stated over and over in this thread. Did you bother to read my earlier posts? This is a non-issue and a strawman, a rather lame, sleazy, and underhanded argumentative tactic. Doesn't hold any water whatsoever.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

There's a difference between free trade, and the "Free Trade" policies brewed up in Washington. Actual free trade is people engaging in business. Free trade policy is a tributary system.

I agree, I don't like free trade polices either.

And, we border exactly two countries. Canada and Mexico. We have an open border with Canada

I didn't mean it like that.

I meant people from every country.

People from Europe, Asia, Africa, wherever.

Open borders for everyone.... as long as you can get here you can come and stay.

Well, okay, technically our national waters border Cuba, but we all think that ban should be killed, too.

I'm not sure what this means.

Originally posted by silent thunder

More illegals mean more competition for scarce jobs and downward pressure on wages. Protected borders protect jobs.

Outsourcing is part of the econonmic "rear end raping" as you call it. So is a flood of illegal immigrants willing to do your job for slave labor wages. Just ask any formerly-employed plumber, carpenter, or electrician in California, Texas, or the Southwest.

Why isn't OWS more concerned about this side of things?

Exactly. The left have really failed on this issue, I suppose out of fear of being branded racist.

The Left either has to make labor front and center or quit pretending they represent any form of opposition.

I don't understand supporting a group of people who have, from the get-go, demonstrated little respect for the law. But then the Left seems to think it is okay to break the law if you are poor just as the right tolerate it from the rich.

Originally posted by Rockdisjoint

Open borders for everyone.... as long as you can get here you can come and stay.

Okay, but what about housing them, treating them if they get sick, educating their kids... Who pays for it?

Originally posted by silent thunder
Agreed. The free trade agreements have damaged both Mexico and the United States. They should never have been implemented in the first place, and they should be rolled back as soon as possible.

Good, glad we have something to agree on.

Be that as it may, it has no bearing on the issue of borders. Borders delineate nations. This is not about personal character, its about law and economics. As I stated on the first and second pages, secure borders mean job protection for Americans. Supply and demand shows that smaller labor pools command higher wages across the board, at all levels. Its not a matter of simply competing for "menial labor" like housecleaning and vegetible-picking (which I think Americans should be doing anyway, but that's another issue...see my post above). It impacts plumbers, carpenters, construction workers, and non-menial farmers...what used to be the backbone of the American working and middle class. These jobs used to be secure and command living wages. Thanks to illegal immigration, in many cases they no longer do.

Actually the concept of a solid-bordered nation-state is archaic and increasingly irrelevant. Global transportation alone has seen to that. It's going to take longer for this realization to settle in the US because we're one of a small handful of countries isolated enough from other nations to pretend it's still meaningful (Island nations like Australia or Japan have the same luxury, as does Canada, which might as well be US states #51-62).

You think Americans should be doing menial labor like laundry and picking vegetables? Americans would be, if these weren't jobs that paid absolutely nothing for backbreaking and often-dangerous labor. hell, Mexicans wouldn't be doing these jobs either, if they had other options. "Picking strawberries" sounds really easy until you realize it's sixteen hours of you bent in half in the California sun, making about five dollars a day - and more, that it's still just a seasonal job. Our labor laws have an immense loophole for agricultural work, as well as a few notable service industries (such as restaurant work).

And no, I'm sorry, illegal immigration doesn't hurt the American middle class; it just fills the already-present vacancies when the middle class is being slaughtered by the owner class. Basically all those pro-business, anti-tax, welfare-killing laws so many Americans seem to love? They're as bad for our workers as Nafta was for Mexican workers. We get fired, they end up getting hired. We're both getting screwed by the same people.

Both race and left-righ ideological postions are totally irrelvant to my argument, which is straight-up economics. As I have stated over and over in this thread. Did you bother to read my earlier posts? This is a non-issue and a strawman, a rather lame, sleazy, and underhanded argumentative tactic. Doesn't hold any water whatsoever.

I don't particularly care about your argument. The witch-hunt anti-immigrant craze sweeping hte nation is not based off economics. It's simple, wide-eyed nativism. You've got presidential candidates, they're not talking about the economics of illegal immigration; they're talking about was ridiculously over-the-top methods they would use to "git them sum'bitches." We have our talking heads in the media screaming and wailing about anyone anywhere celebrating Cinco de Mayo, and gnashing hteir teaith for "para espanol, oprima numero dos" on their phone menus.

These are not "economic arguments" and you certainly know that. Kudos on you for not pulling a lou Dobbs and worrying about all the lepers apparently jumping the border from Mexico, but don't pretend that this is not the major factor in the majority of discourse on the subject - or that this garbage doesn't come mainly from conservative America. Kay?

Originally posted by Jessica6

Originally posted by Rockdisjoint

Open borders for everyone.... as long as you can get here you can come and stay.

Okay, but what about housing them, treating them if they get sick, educating their kids... Who pays for it?

The government.



j/k

reply to post by silent thunder


I agree that it is a very difficult area, but we collectively are human beings, i do not know how any human being can be an illegal immigrant, you are talking about phrases etc made up by governments to stop or place conditions on certain people from coming into a country. Whilst there are comlpex reasons for doing this, we all should have the right to go where we want, whenever we want.

Repeat after me, "there are no illegal human beings" there, i feel much better. When we visit and choose to stay somewhere, we should abide by the hosts laws and traditions, simple no problem whatsoever for any one.

Will it work, no not a chance.

Originally posted by brommas
reply to post by silent thunder

 

I agree that it is a very difficult area, but we collectively are human beings, i do not know how any human being can be an illegal immigrant, you are talking about phrases etc made up by governments to stop or place conditions on certain people from coming into a country. Whilst there are comlpex reasons for doing this, we all should have the right to go where we want, whenever we want.

Repeat after me, "there are no illegal human beings" there, i feel much better. When we visit and choose to stay somewhere, we should abide by the hosts laws and traditions, simple no problem whatsoever for any one.

Will it work, no not a chance.

Thousands of citizens have lost their lives because of illegal immigrants. You wouldn't want to tell the families of those victoms that human beings can't be illegal.

If you come here without a background and health check, it is illegal. We have laws for a reason.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by silent thunder

 

If you want jobs....talk to the business' that export them for cheap labor!

Immigrants, en mass, will never be deported. Never have, never will!

Race may have nothing to do with it, but if we are to be ideologically consistent then we must realize that America was founded on illegal immigration!

edit on 24-11-2011 by sheepslayer247 because: (no reason given)

Operations Wetback One and Two would disagree with you. P.S The Natives weren't the first Homo sapiens sapiens to inhabit North America. By their own account they wiped out the previous inhabitants, so they really don't have any kind of moral leg to stand on. And besides, the USA is ours now. It belongs to each and every lawful American Citizen. We have a right to self determination, a right to steer our own destinies.

I don't know what the solution is for our immigration problems, but I do know that ripping families apart and the deportation process isn't the right way to fix it. What I'm seeing mostly again is blame on the people and none on the employers. Desperate people will do desperate things to survive and dispicable people will take advantage of that, they will hire them at slave wages and treat them like dirt and they will give "your" job away to do it. Meanwhile our hatred has an easy misdirected target.