"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth"

reply to post by jmdewey60

God is the ultimate arbiter, so no one gets saved without God's say so.
Jesus is not just an ordinary man but was sent from above.
YHWH was a man in a chariot.
God would correspond to El, the father of YHWH.
Jesus as the glorified Christ would have the same type of relationship with God, as YHWH had with El.
YHWH introduced a new name for God, as being the representative of El, as Jesus introduces us now to the new name for God, in that Jesus represents the character of God, including acting as savior.

One thing that Ive noticed about your views is that they are very different from the usual christian take on the subject... that Jesus is actually God who they identify as Yahweh.
You are probably one of the few christians I've met online who have a view thats radically different from the rest. You might come across people disagreeing with you when you say that Yahweh was not God.... but rather subordinate to God, known simply as El.

To cut it short, clearly you have a different understanding of the bible and its concepts from "mainstream" christians, who the OP is directed towards.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Could i quickly point out Isaiah may have been a murderer, and under the influence of something other then God?

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.

"Thou shall not Kill" seems to be an issue with a few of the OT writers

reply to post by Akragon

Could i quickly point out Isaiah may have been a murderer, and under the influence of something other then God?

No comment.
I guess that should be dealt with by the christians who point out that Isaiah prophecies Jesus arrival.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

it appears to me that these words in Isaiah have lost their significance to Christians, or have been replaced by NT theology. Is this the case? Or have I missed something.

Yeah, you're missing something pretty big. In the verse you quoted the Lord is speaking. Who is the Lord?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Yeah, you're missing something pretty big. In the verse you quoted the Lord is speaking. Who is the Lord?

The Lord is the One who sent Jesus... who Jesus prayed to and instructed others to pray to etc.
Its all there in your bible. Quotes ready to be presented.

Any objections?

Dear superman2012,

Thanks for your response. It's clear you've done some serious thinking about this and I'll try to keep up with you.

(Kal-El? I thought you were Superman. Check my profile, I'm "just a guy.")

My image in the mirror, although exactly identical, is not me. If someone were to make a painting, carving, statue of me, again, it wouldn't be me. I don't know exactly what I am trying to say, but, if we were made in their image, what part of us is reflected from them?

What you're saying makes perfect sense, it's a tough question and I only have part of an idea for you. One of the parts is our ability to reason as we do. As far as I know, our abilities in that area are unique. Another part is not possible to demonstrate in a lab, but I believe we have a spirit, a consciousness, a soul that continues after death. Other parts might include free will, a creative ability (true, only limited, but it's there), the ability to love, and self-sacrifice. (I've just given up thinking about it, I'm sure there are more.)

There are only a couple of problems I have with the Bible. First, people believe it to be the word of God. Now you can say that it was written by God using men as His pen, but, why go through that trouble?

Well, how does God see us? If he wanted everything to be perfect, he wouldn't have made Man, he would have made robots, but that's a sterile, dead perfection. Jesus went around as a man, his followers were men (and women), the story would be reported to men. It was only right that men had a hand in producing it. (There's a better answer for you out there, I just don't know what it is right now.)

Second, there have been sooo many rewrites of the Bible that who knows what the real message was supposed to be? Do we just wait for the Book of Jesus? Or do we take the Dead sea scrolls as gospel?

I'm not sure what you mean by "rewrites." There have been new translations, and there will be many more. There are new translations of any really old work. And, some translations are targeted to specific audiences. I understand there's a comic book Bible! (Must only hit the high points, though.) There are scholarly versions where each word is translated as precisely as possible regardless of the effect on the flow of the writing. Depending on the purpose, research, thorough reading, casual reading, there's a version available. I even have a Bible with four different translations, each in its separate column, for easy comparison. But what I haven't seen are any crucial differences on important issues.

Too many unanswered questions from people of the faith for me to take religion seriously (although it is fascinating).

You're absolutely right about the unanswered questions, but that's one of the reasons I do take it seriously. I wouldn't be satisfied with a religion with no mystery, that had the answer to evrything. I can come up with half a dozen questions off the top of my head that are important, but have no provable answer.

I don't have a problem with people believing in Religion as it usually fills a void that they need in their life.

I agree again. But can it be that 90%+ of the people feel a need for something false or non-existant? That's not like any other need I know of.

The only problem I have with organized religion is the fact that they don't volunteer their time, they ask for money, and they usually preach out of a beautiful building. Oh, and the people that push the old, "if you don't believe in my religion, you are wrong.".

I agree again, mostly. I'd agree completely if you said "Some don't ....," because some do. I like the line that says a church is not a museum for saints, it is a hospital for sinners.

Any way, I hope this counts as an adequate response for now.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yeah, you're missing something pretty big. In the verse you quoted the Lord is speaking. Who is the Lord?

The Lord is the One who sent Jesus... who Jesus prayed to and instructed others to pray to etc.
Its all there in your bible. Quotes ready to be presented.

Any objections?

Jesus is Lord.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Who was speaking was ενδοξασθησονται, the glorified one, who you see in John saying, Now glorify me as I was previously glorified, who is Jesus.

reply to post by jmdewey60

ενδοξασθησονται

We're talking about Isaiah.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Thats the part thats being disputed...according to the bible.


Whether or not Jesus was Lord.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

We're talking about Isaiah.

Which was available in Greek, which was what the New Testament was written in and the version of the Old Testament that the writers would have read, and also Jesus.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Loved your posts! Jesus is Lord and Jesus is the one speaking in Isaiah. His sheep know his voice and will not follow another.

Mysteries wrapped within mysteries.

Surely they have all read the Psalm of David where he stated, "The Lord said to my Lord....". If David calls him Lord, how can he be David's son? It's because Jesus is the Son of Man who sticks closer than any brother. Just as he was the fruit of Mary's womb, he is the fruit of being born again. Amen.

Jesus has always been the one talking through the prophets, whether OT or New and it is because of this that he was able to tell the leaders "I tell you the truth, before Abraham WAS, I AM."

God proves once and for all through Jesus' ministry that:

A. The living God exists
B. The divinity of the man Jesus who transitions from Son of God, to Son of Man.
C. The living God provides proof of everything we are discussing in this thread with confirming timestamps he confirms his covenant.

The timestamps are critical in proving God right, that is why they have been included in the stories in the first place.

They need to consider, that the actual words Jesus spoke in the NT (the red lettered words) are very few in all reality. Then consideration and examination of the timestamps recorded by the disciples.

Why tell us it was about noon when Jesus met the woman at the well?

Why tell us it was about one in the afternoon (7th hour) when the fever left the royal officials son?

Why record that the wedding in Cana took place on the third day of the week (our Tuesday)?

Some people refuse to look too close for fear of what they might find and learning they were wrong.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Jesus is the one speaking in Isaiah.

Isaiah was a prophet so it could be Jesus speaking through Isaiah prophetically, meaning Jesus could look at that verse and see it as a prophecy about himself. It does not (and probably could not) have to be Jesus literally speaking those words at that moment.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

Jesus is the one speaking in Isaiah.

Isaiah was a prophet so it could be Jesus speaking through Isaiah prophetically, meaning Jesus could look at that verse and see it as a prophecy about himself. It does not (and probably could not) have to be Jesus literally speaking those words at that moment.

edit on 22-11-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You can believe that Jesus read Isaiah and then respoke the words as if it were a prophecy about himself , but I am telling you the truth and I have no reason to lie, that it is Jesus speaking inside of the prophet Isaiah - he was the Son of God then too, for he has been since the beginning of creation when the first word came out of Gods mouth.

All I want you to do is ask yourself 'what are the implications' if it is true that Jesus was actually inside of Isaiah all the way back then. And if it is true, 'how in the world did I miss it?'

In looking at what you wrote in parenthesis "and probably could not" - Why could he not? Early on in Genesis he says that his Spirit would not contend with us forever for we are mortal. Here we have a clear seperation of spirit and mortality. In Zechariah (that's Jesus speaking too through the prophet) he states things will be accomplished not by might or power (in the physical) but by his spirit.

Fast forward to Jesus in the flesh and we find the true teachings of spirit. Mysteries are found in all four gospels, but the one with much truth and order is found in the one that is different from the other three, the Gospel of John.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Im trying to hold back a laugh here...

So tell me, is there a way to tell when "jesus" spoke through these "prophets" and when he did not?

for example... you said

In Zechariah (that's Jesus speaking too through the prophet)

So was this also Jesus speaking through Zechariah?

3And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

. . . you wrote in parenthesis "and probably could not" - Why could he not?

I don't think every word of every prophecy was about Jesus, much less by Jesus. Jesus, like you said about examples in John, could pick out the parts that applied to him but he did it in a way of jumping from one verse to another and not in a normal sort of order. He had a definite understanding of who he was, so could do that and customize it as he saw fit. I think whatever spirit inspired the writers to say those things had Jesus in mind but I don't think of Jesus being a corporeal person like us before the incarnation. He would have been a pure spirit being and may not have had that much of an understanding of being a distinct entity so much as being of a whole including God, where he could truly say that the Father and I are one.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Simply put...

Jesus wasn't God... Nor did he speak through the OT prophets In my humble opinion. Not to mention the fact that there wasn't anything Jesus didn't understand as far as i've read

That solves the issue immediately

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

We're talking about Isaiah.

Which was available in Greek, which was what the New Testament was written in and the version of the Old Testament that the writers would have read, and also Jesus.

What language was Isaiah written in before Greek?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Jesus has always been the one talking through the prophets, whether OT or New and it is because of this that he was able to tell the leaders "I tell you the truth, before Abraham WAS, I AM."

Amen. The amazing discovery is that every place, name, event, celebration point to Christ and that he is on every page of scripture.

reply to post by Akragon


Jesus has been laughed at and even spit on before, so if it makes you feel better about yourself, then by all means - laugh.

What you quoted - it's him. You listed only verse 3 from 13 - in verse one he explains that a time is coming , that a fountain of living water will be opened up to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem and they will be CLEANSED FROM SIN AND IMPURITY.

That's how you can tell if Jesus is doing the talking. You have to be cleansed internally for him to indwell.