The cover up as to God's gender

Originally posted by manna2
Sigismundus and undo, thanks for the dialogue. Great stuff here. And to think of how this thread started.

a bit off topic but look at this extremely cool picture::




bigger version at the theban mapping project, valley of the kings,
sety I's tomb,
THE FOUR RACES OF MAN
www.thebanmappingproject.com...

do you see what i see?

Genesis 1
The Beginning

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Before we even get to Elohim we have him as Spirit hovering over waters.

Also I like to point out that Islam likes to join the Bandwagone when it begins to fade and they need Bible and Hebrew terms otherwise it has no ancient point of reference. I say this because Islam has an immitation gene in its core, if man built a church on the moon they would want a Mosque near by too and this trend spiritually drives Islam's counterfiet nature.

They always need the Bible for something even if its band in public in Muslim countries, even if there is a connection the two gods are different while its integrity fails.

People do you not see where all this is leading ATS is putting more doubt in the Christian faith and creating its own version in which to confuse people in the end times, the devil wants to spawn his plans to see if people fall for it that way he can say there are other gods and he is just part of that nature when he is not, next thing they say is that Allah and Johovah are the same, they are not, Jesus Isa of Islam is not the Christ of the Bible either.

When Muhammad claimed to have had his ‘vision’ and ‘revelation’ from Gabriel

he chose al-ilah as the god to build his army around.

Muhammad shortened the name, al-ilah, to Allah, and declared that he alone

should be worshipped. He forbade the worship of the daughters.

To this day, a crescent moon can be found at the front of every mosque,

acknowledging that Allah was, and is the moon god...." 4

Classical Mythology states that Allah, ‘originally applied to the moon; he seems to be preceded by Ilmaqah, the moon god...Allat; the female counterpart to Allah.’"3

Text

reply to post by The time lord


i'm not muslim either. i was raised non-catholic, christian but don't attend any particular church denomination. what part of my data suggests i'm muslim? that's a real head scratcher.

reply to post by undo


I did not use a reply if you notice my post like this one, it was not a reply to you in particular I just thought I would expand on the current trend of the argument of the post, did not think anyone was Muslim or Catholic was not assuming, just reading and expanding upon the evolution of the conversation. I was looking at Wikipedia it mentioned the connection between the words.

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by undo

 

I did not use a reply if you notice my post like this one, it was not a reply to you in particular I just thought I would expand on the current trend of the argument of the post, did not think anyone was Muslim or Catholic was not assuming, just reading and expanding upon the evolution of the conversation. I was looking at Wikipedia it mentioned the connection between the words.

edit on 21-11-2011 by The time lord because: (no reason given)

connection between what words? i'm interested in all this because i think the histories of the people that surrounded the hebrews often gives some interesting insight into how other cultures absorbed the same events. for example, i think the egyptian "story of the destruction of mankind" is the egyptian version of the flood. remember, some of noah's descendants settled egypt. those stories have to be in there somewhere.

Originally posted by undo

Originally posted by The time lord
reply to post by undo

 

I did not use a reply if you notice my post like this one, it was not a reply to you in particular I just thought I would expand on the current trend of the argument of the post, did not think anyone was Muslim or Catholic was not assuming, just reading and expanding upon the evolution of the conversation. I was looking at Wikipedia it mentioned the connection between the words.

edit on 21-11-2011 by The time lord because: (no reason given)

connection between what words? i'm interested in all this because i think the histories of the people that surrounded the hebrews often gives some interesting insight into how other cultures absorbed the same events. for example, i think the egyptian "story of the destruction of mankind" is the egyptian version of the flood. remember, some of noah's descendants settled egypt. those stories have to be in there somewhere.

I don't believe the connection between Elohim and Allah are related more to do with a moon god in Arabic culture that is what I meant by reading it on wikipedia.

I have been through the flood conversation here before, fact is all civilisations record a great flood in their culture.
Also the pyramids and the same sacrifice culture can be found related to other parts of the world like the Mayan.
The tower of Babel, God spread man across the earth and confused their language because they wanted to reach heaven, traces of the same culture in vast places.
Then you have Greek gods and Hindu gods and Egyptian giants which I believe are part of the fallen angels or Nephilim race.
Then you have the hybrids like the sphinx and genetic experiments in which caused God to wipe them out with the flood.

It's all related, lots of historical clues are unearthed but because the knowledge is so hushed up no one thinks it is a big deal when they do find important relics and tombs and buildings.

reply to post by The time lord


yeah i didn't think enlil and allah were connected to el, either, but then,
i did this study on ba'al vs. bel. and turns out it's the same thing. ever heard of
michael s. heiser?

reply to post by undo


Hi Undo

Unfortunately, the unpointed paleoHeb of Exod chapter 3:14 adds '-SH-R between the two HYEHs, and thus one may not quietly remove THREE consecutive paleoHeb consonants ('Aleph - Shin - Resh) just because they are inconvenient for your theology.

Any Rabinnical student or theological professor will tell you that HYEH - 'SHR - HYEH is ABSOLUTELY UNTRANSLATABLE as it stands in the un-pointed paleoHeb consonantal text.

These facts are incontrovertible, so don't waste your time 'kicking against the goads...'

The Greek LXX later translations (including Symmachus, Theodotion & Aquilla's Greek versions) were also hopelessly confused as to an exact translation from paleoHeb into Greek at this point in the story of the 'burning Sineh' ('bush').

But just because (aleph - shin - resh) is unconfortable here, is no reason to ignore these THREE consonants as if they were not there - because (Shock and Awe !!!) they ARE there in the text and you cannot change this fact.

We DO know that the Assyrians invaded Eretz Yisro'el c. 722 - 701 BCE and that they introduced the cults of ASHER and his wifwe goddess consort ASHERAH (or rather, re-introduced or strengthened their presence in Canaan after 722 BCE we have plaques 'dedcated to YHWH and his Asherah' from c. 680 BCE) and that the clan god of the Assyrians (ASHER / ASHUR) had FOUR FACES - one of a Man, one of a Lion, one of an Ox or Bull and one of an Eagle, like YHWH has in the Book of the Prophet Hezekiel chapter 1 (and also in his chapter 10) written c. 550 BCE, long after the Assyrian cults had time to grow and establish themselves enough to influence a description of the 4 fixed ROYAL stars nearest Polaris (Aldebaran, Regulus, Antares & Formalhut - i.e. the 4 'faces' of the 'central star' god etc.)

So one cannot rule out ASHUR/ASHER as forming part of the burning bush-god's name in Exodus 3:14

אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה

H-Y-H 'A-SH-R H-Y-H (which if the 'aleph is pointed with an A could read: I AM ASHUR I AM )

Which as we said, has nothing to do with YHWH the socalled Tetragrammaton which many persons like to translate into English as THE LORD -

As we already mentioned in some earlier posts on this ATS threadlet, the middle 'word' in this strange paleoHeb consonantal cluster could also be 'E-SH-R ('that / who is') since technically 'ALEPH is a CONSONANT in need of a vowell pointing (could be 'pointed' or 'vowelled' as an 'a' or an 'e' or an 'i' or an '-o' or even a 'u' - as in U-RRIM ve THUMMIM) - but YOU CANNOT LEAVE OUT that problematic middle word just because you have no room for it ( 'A-SH-R) in your own warped interpretation.

So why are you and others doing just that, pray tell ??!

reply to post by The time lord

People do you not see where all this is leading ATS is putting more doubt in the Christian faith and creating its own version in which to confuse people in the end times, the devil wants to spawn his plans to see if people fall for it that way he can say there are other gods and he is just part of that nature when he is not, next thing they say is that Allah and Johovah are the same, they are not, Jesus Isa of Islam is not the Christ of the Bible either.

Oh, come on. Are you blaming ATS for your lack of faith now? This thread is about the Gender of G-D, I do believe.

reply to post by Sigismundus


well as i indicated in the post i addressed to you on the subject, the word doesn't appear in the original text there. it appears to have been added after the original. when i don't know.
there's something else i'd like to ask you about, to see what you can make of it.
recall the text in genesis 18:2-33 that discusses abraham's visit by the 3 "men", what do you make of that series of verses there? those verses have to be among the strangest in the entire old testament.

i'm still freaking out about the asherah thing. that just.......
well, freaks me out. don't really want to elaborate on it yet, and may never, as it just freaks me out lol

hayah asherah?? hayah.
i got goose bumps

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by The time lord

 

People do you not see where all this is leading ATS is putting more doubt in the Christian faith and creating its own version in which to confuse people in the end times, the devil wants to spawn his plans to see if people fall for it that way he can say there are other gods and he is just part of that nature when he is not, next thing they say is that Allah and Johovah are the same, they are not, Jesus Isa of Islam is not the Christ of the Bible either.

Oh, come on. Are you blaming ATS for your lack of faith now? This thread is about the Gender of G-D, I do believe.

Not blaming ATS but the trend is such that people have so many views which seems to build a different picture of God in ways that I think is opening an acceptence of him that mirrors in a way the comming of a false messiah or evil trinity of the messiah in the end times. What ever we say on ATS is a common reflection of the world views especially the english speaking world.

There is meant to be an anti-Christ figure, with a false prophet and image of the false prophet that speaks from a statue or robotic cyborg figure in the future sometime as theory suggests closet to being that scenario. We do not know if they are all the same sex, one could be a Male leader the other a woman who probably make out they are the Trinity. That is where I feel arguements like this open doors of acceptence when the worldly deception occurs.

When God speaks to man in the Bible does he sound like a woman? I wonder but still need to look into it.

For some bizarre reason I always imagined the cosmos looking like one big vaJayJay.

I'm gonna flag this thread... just because.

reply to post by The time lord

Not blaming ATS but the trend is such that people have so many views which seems to build a different picture of God in ways that I think is opening an acceptence of him that mirrors in a way the comming of a false messiah or evil trinity of the messiah in the end times. What ever we say on ATS is a common reflection of the world views especially the english speaking world.

So what? I do not mean to be harsh here, but what does it matter, really, what people think God is? Why is that some religions think they and only they have the real truth, and nobody else does? For instance, the Divine Mother and Father I know is way different from the Lords and Masters of the Bible. My Father and Mother is not cruel, and does not take from me in anger. I can feel their presence right now, here with me.

It is only in the Christian Faith that a false Messiah/Anti-Christ is a reality. Those of us who have educated ourselves on these matters know who the man you know as Jesus is, and what his job really was, and who sent him to do the job. He is not now, nor was he ever a God, and I defy anyone to show me scripture where it says Jesus is God. The Christian and Muslim Faiths depend on a book for everything of a Spiritual Nature. I do not. My book is the World, and Nature. I see the Divine in everything, not just in a man, or a building. Christianity has created a horrific future for themselves, and everyone else, and I am left to wonder just why this is?

reply to post by undo


hi Undo

You wrote:

QUOTE

"Well, as I indicated in the post I addressed to you on the subject, the word doesn't appear in the original text there. It appears to have been added after the original. When i don't know..."

UNQUOTE

This is patently UN-TRUE and is one of your forlorn fantasies.

Are you able to show me even a SINGLE a ancient paleoHeb consonantal text where ('Aleph - Shin - Resh) does NOT appear in Exod. 3:14 ?

So how can dare to claim (without a single shred of ancient textual evidence) that 'Aleph Shin Resh ('shr) (A-SH-R / E-SH-R) was NOT part of the original reading?

Please quote the text where 'SHR is missing, if you would. Then we can have a nice long discussion about what this phrase ORIGINALLY said - as it stands now, it is UN-TRANSLATABLE as any Rebbe will tell you.

That is all.

Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by The time lord

 

Not blaming ATS but the trend is such that people have so many views which seems to build a different picture of God in ways that I think is opening an acceptence of him that mirrors in a way the comming of a false messiah or evil trinity of the messiah in the end times. What ever we say on ATS is a common reflection of the world views especially the english speaking world.

So what? I do not mean to be harsh here, but what does it matter, really, what people think God is? Why is that some religions think they and only they have the real truth, and nobody else does? For instance, the Divine Mother and Father I know is way different from the Lords and Masters of the Bible. My Father and Mother is not cruel, and does not take from me in anger. I can feel their presence right now, here with me.

It is only in the Christian Faith that a false Messiah/Anti-Christ is a reality. Those of us who have educated ourselves on these matters know who the man you know as Jesus is, and what his job really was, and who sent him to do the job. He is not now, nor was he ever a God, and I defy anyone to show me scripture where it says Jesus is God. The Christian and Muslim Faiths depend on a book for everything of a Spiritual Nature. I do not. My book is the World, and Nature. I see the Divine in everything, not just in a man, or a building. Christianity has created a horrific future for themselves, and everyone else, and I am left to wonder just why this is?

Depends because each God has different set of rules and different nations or lands are sacred to God which is why they always fight over it.

Not really we know that In in book of Daniel an anti-Christ figure appears, we know in the book of Thessalonians 2 he is also mentioned and we have the last great battle as mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Another thing is that the Quran also mentions an anti-Christ figure also, the Hindu's believe in a devil also.

If Jesus does not claim not to be God in the flesh then the whole world has been fussing over nothing and you must be right also.

QUOTE:
2.John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

5.John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
___________________________________

There is historical evidence of buildings, ancient writing and empires, destroyed places and other artifacts concerning the Bible so for Christians who need to convince others the evidence is picking up, but it is not advertised because other forces do not want people to know, the whole Middle East keeps closed a lot of the ancient places from the non Muslims.

Then add Bible prophecy with how today's nations are rounding up against Israel the story is even more true, but oce people do not look into it they will never know, the Middle East does not Know about what the Bible predicts in that region because it is banned, if there is a devil then he has a over billion people closed to the truth in which they will agree in heart to rebel against God's plans, it is said the Russians will join, why because they too do not know what the Bible says because they ban religion as part of their political system.

It's not just faith but patterns of history repeating it self and ancient tribes going to war, the warnings are there and only a few will know and those few will have no power to stop it.

reply to post by Sigismundus


every word with a number after it, was in the original text. every word without a number after it, was not in the original text, so they have no reference to give you the translation for it.

Exd 3:14 And God 430 said 559 unto Moses 4872, I AM 1961 THAT I AM 1961: and he said 559, Thus shalt thou say 559 unto the children 1121 of Israel 3478, I AM hath sent 7971 me unto you.

that means, that verse has the following words in it
god said moses i am i am said, say children israel i am sent.

as i said before, the grammatical construction of the sentence is now incorrect because english has different sentence structure than hebrew. note how there's no reference number following "that" because there's no equivalent word for it in hebrew in the verse. i mentioned before also, that you may have access to other hebrew texts that do contain it, and that wouldn't surprise me at all, just well, where's the definition in the king james? it's not there. even stranger, the word "that" does have a translation in genesis 1: 4,

kiy

1) that, for, because, when, as though, as, because that, but, then, certainly, except, surely, since

a) that

1) yea, indeed

b) when (of time)

1) when, if, though (with a concessive force)

c) because, since (causal connection)

d) but (after negative)

e) that if, for if, indeed if, for though, but if

f) but rather, but

g) except that

h) only, nevertheless

i) surely

j) that is

k) but if

l) for though

m) forasmuch as, for therefore

so if the word between i am and i am was that, why didn't they just reference "kiy" instead of providing no reference at all?

reply to post by undo


Hi Undo

You wrote

QUOTE "Every word with a number after it, was in the original text. every word without a number after it, was not in the original text, so they have no reference to give you the translation for it.

Exod 3:14

'And God 430
said 559
unto Moses 4872,
I AM 1961
THAT I AM 1961:

and he said 559,

Thus shalt thou say 559
unto the children 1121
of Israel 3478,
I AM hath sent 7971
me unto you.

...There's no reference number following "that" because there's no equivalent word for it in Hebrew in the verse...."

UNQUOTE

This is garbage. You are pulling english words out of strong's concordance since you are unable to read paleoHebrew consonants. The word ESHER is in ALL the ancient textual traditions - so you are barking up the wrong tree.

Your silly quote makes ABSOLUTELY NO reference to either the PaleoHeb of the Consontal text of the SamPent = Samaritan Pentateuch at Exod. 3:14 (which DOES include 'Aleph-Shin-Resh') nor does it make ANY textual reference to the later proto-Masoretic consonantal PaleoHeb text (MT) at Exod. 3:14 (which ALSO DOES include 'Aleph-Shin-Resh') or to the Dead Sea Scroll variants at Exod 3.14 ALL of which DO include 'Aleph-Shin-Resh' as well) .

Also the Greek translations from their own various Hebrew consonantal text families (e.g. Symmachus, or Aquilla or Theodotion) ALL translate the 'Aleph-Shin-Resh' at Exod. 3:14 - none of these leave it out either.

So, basically, you are walking around blind without a cane, pal.

Can you PLEASE stick to the paleoHebrew consonantal text families for this verse, and try not to confuse the situation with mindless references to Strong's concordance which do nothing but make you seem in the eyes of many ATS posters to be a 'silly person...' without a leg to stand on, linguistically.

Also, see if you can begin your American English sentences with capital letters where grammatically required when you post back to me on this thread - you're clearly no e.e. cummings so stop trying to act like him...

Reply to post by autowrench

You do not know your Scriptures very well then.

I will start you off with the first chapter of John.

Pay special attention to the first verse.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by Sigismundus


Clearly the rabbis are having a problem with it too. maybe there's a reason for that? it makes no logical sense to have ashur show up in the middle of that statement, unless that's not what it said. my theory was that somewhere along the line, they just started retroactively, even in the paleo hebrew, translating it to say that, even if originally it was just a scribal error. i can see it here in the paleo hebrew, i recognize the phrase in the paleo hebrew, and every source lists it here www.hebrewoldtestament.com...

but i'm still floundering over its use. it's illogical. since when does jehovah call himself ashur. or any part of his name ashur. all i could conclude was at the time of the writing of the king james, they could find no legitmate equivalent for it but added it anyway, at the behest of the hebrew scholars of that time, that were helping them to translate the text. and now it's just retroactively applied to any new re-translations. i mean, do you have any idea why it's there? if the rabbis don't and you don't either, maybe it isn't supposed to be there and that's why there's no equivalent word for it there . in other words, king james scholars agreed to put it there but there was no real reason to other than the admonition of the hebrew scholars.

is it your theory that it was a star reference and he's just referring to himself as the lord of the heavens? if a word was in the original text, they translated it. then added english words to make the sentences read properly in english.