Are You Not What You Are Being Told You Are?

Originally posted by mistermonculous

Originally posted by Aeons
I don't think that this is possibly the only variation where this is happening, but it does seem to be possibly one of the most problematic.

Yes, ma'am. Give these guys a game, and you provide a harmless outlet for their natural inclinations, and also a place to form groups based on their mutual hobby, thus lessening their sense of alienation. Innocuous enough, yes?

Maybe not so much. I would posit: give these guys a game, and you give them a means to practice behavior they are naturally inclined toward; and the opportunity to meet others with whom they have more in common than just a shared hobby. Terminology like "Clans" doesn't just *poof* appear out of a vacuum.

Not intending to shut down our Gamez, just pointing out a fairly obvious possibility.

Urge to lots of mental training, if some are motivated, physical training and no direction.

Is this what is happening with some gang types?

Though honestly, I'd have to say that while they seem to more IRL motivated that most of them are dumb as rocks, so I bet the people attracted to other things are possibly smarter.

I cannot imagine that giving the disenfranchised fewer choices is going to work so well.

Plus, I'm fascinated how online play can be translated into IRL application. How amazing is it that some people's brains are able to adapt in this way in so little time? It is like seeing the birth of the Mech Warrior in the in between phase. This mental adaptation to rewiring one's prefrontal cortex to use abstract things or to rewire your working memory is utterly astounding. Surely this sort of adaptibility is a human asset.

I cannot imagine that giving the disenfranchised fewer choices is going to work so well.

Particularly if no one is aware of the problem as it is being defined in this thread (and pretty much only this thread, I've done some poking around). The process of exploring choices must start with an inquiry into how these guys can be given a viable slot in our societies. Now, this clearly can't be done without some heavy re-structuring, but that's where I'd start.

What alternative outlets do you see being created for/by the upper percentile in this group? I guess they'd be attempting to assemble a tribe to identify with and protect. And I guess that could take any number of forms. But you seem to have some specific leads?

Plus, I'm fascinated how online play can be translated into IRL application. How amazing is it that some people's brains are able to adapt in this way in so little time? It is like seeing the birth of the Mech Warrior in the in between phase. This mental adaptation to rewiring one's prefrontal cortex to use abstract things or to rewire your working memory is utterly astounding. Surely this sort of adaptibility is a human asset.

It's absolutely astounding. Which is why I'm inclined to think that these types have been marginalized to the detriment of the species as a whole, even if I don't understand the scale or nature of that loss.

Wow talk about ignorance, you all don't get it do you. And such hidden spite among all your words...I shall help you all since you seem lost.

All types are the same types that have been around, and always were around, the blacksmith that was a blacksmith, will be a blacksmith on a different path to the same difference, and so forth. And same of all the others.....What you are witnessing is the beginning's of the shift into a better more fulfilling existence, its baby steps...And yes everything is a game even life and death, even pleasure and suffering. The protectors and warriors are still around.....There sights are just set on something else entirely, something that is better. And what there sights are set on is what they will go for.

And if they have to go trough hell, and drag everyone along, and nail everyone in the way to the tree of thought, on there way long past "insanity" and all such norms. To get what they have had a glimpse off, and want. You best believe, that will be the case....Let me tell you something! The best way to let go of something is in kindness, and being on its receiving end especially to there spite and ignorance. That way when the time comes you don't have to play games, and can move on without looking back, not even a doubt in your mind, and definitely no pity or regret. By the time that times comes around those things wont even be in there vocabulary it literally wont exist.


When they do that it's not because they cant or wont be something else, its just because they see something better that they want down the line in there line of sight ....Everybody always thinks existence revolves around them especially the ladies, and especially the ones with big egos, but sad to say. Every dog has his day. Even the female dogs.

As you can see they are really the only ones who are deathly serious about society and humanity, so much so that people now a days are catching up to things that have been overcome ages ago. Why should anybody fear death or even the death of an entire genus or species, even of the entire human race. What is humanity the pinnacle of existence now. What do you all want to live forever? Do you all truly think anything will be alive and walking the earth as they are today a couple of thousand years from now, much less eons from now?...That is truly unsanity, so yes death and destruction await....It's all just a matter how you would want to go trough that and channel its energies....Some ways are less messy then others. Really that is the only choice you all are given.

But yes you can say I do not care all that much about society, and anybody that does, does not really know society, and needs to come to know society better...Some are just living on borrowed time. So as you can see, the universe will find a way. It is what it is. What else would it be? But that which we will it to be. And what we will it to be, will be what it is.

Relax aeons death and extinction, is of no consequence....On a side note you actually want your genome to survive into the future. Are you that shallow? Oh wellz sure why not, it will be funny.

But to answer your question truly...."What am I" I am the faults and wills and overcoming's of all my fathers, I am the first man to make plans. And this? Is evolution baby. So lets all be a little less spiteful, less such big meanie's, and more loving eh. I'f I have to! you best believe everybody else better have to as well.

Strong this...Strong that...yada yada...like it mattered. Be as you wish to seem.

And such hidden spite among all your words...I shall help you all since you seem lost...

...Everybody always thinks existence revolves around them especially the ladies, and especially the ones with big egos, but sad to say.

Every dog has his day. Even the female dogs.

I wasn't picking up on any spite on this thread until I came to your post, dude. But yeah, I guess open spite is preferable to hidden spite. Oh wait. No, it totally isn't. They're both undesirable.

And this? Is evolution baby.

Odd, I am surprised to find that the next leap in our development as a species entails incoherent pseudo-mysticism and blatant misogyny. If you are the paragon of human development you claim to be, I guess we really do have a problem.

Originally posted by mistermonculous

I cannot imagine that giving the disenfranchised fewer choices is going to work so well.

Particularly if no one is aware of the problem as it is being defined in this thread (and pretty much only this thread, I've done some poking around). The process of exploring choices must start with an inquiry into how these guys can be given a viable slot in our societies. Now, this clearly can't be done without some heavy re-structuring, but that's where I'd start.

What alternative outlets do you see being created for/by the upper percentile in this group? I guess they'd be attempting to assemble a tribe to identify with and protect. And I guess that could take any number of forms. But you seem to have some specific leads?

I don't have an idea right now. What I have is something stewing in my subconscious that hasn't surfaced yet!

Alas, this is how these things work for me. I continue to feed my brain bits of things as it obsesses about a subject, and eventually something starts coming back. Not always the most comfortable process.

The only thing I think I'll take away from galadofwar up there is that the restrictions that caused some of this specialization aren't necessarily natural and so traits being distributed throughout the populace over time might be better for us as a whole. But then, I don't know how much of this specialization was culturally indoctrinated, and how much is some amount of natural selection where generations of women are selecting for a set of traits in a way which is not culturally directed.

I think I need to know if anyone else could see themselves in this, or see it too. I don't have many people who I can bounce seriously abstract concepts off of, so I'm very happy to have you come play with me!

Sleep, and see if a whiff of inspiration comes!

reply to post by mistermonculous


Interesting response.

Odd, I am surprised to find that the next leap in our development as a species entails incoherent pseudo-mysticism and blatant misogyny. If you are the paragon of human development you claim to be, I guess we really do have a problem.

How did you get that from what I wrote? Really grow up.

reply to post by Aeons


So what end are you trying to put together? And to what end?

The only thing I think I'll take away from galadofwar up there is that the restrictions that caused some of this specialization aren't necessarily natural and so traits being distributed throughout the populace over time might be better for us as a whole. But then, I don't know how much of this specialization was culturally indoctrinated, and how much is some amount of natural selection where generations of women are selecting for a set of traits in a way which is not culturally directed.

Well at least your thinking on stuff aeons, you seem to have a knack for it like a bloodhound. But what makes you so sure there all not false trails and scents?

Anyways I am sure you will find what you want to find, those who want to find stuff usually do find what they want to find. And yes, no doubt you will find some that you did not want to find. But alas hindsight is 20/20. And foresight is focused upon. But the past is long gone. Way to long for any justification of the present, yet people will try, and try, and try to put it in there context....And the funny thing is....They will all succeed.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
reply to post by mistermonculous

 

Interesting response.

Odd, I am surprised to find that the next leap in our development as a species entails incoherent pseudo-mysticism and blatant misogyny. If you are the paragon of human development you claim to be, I guess we really do have a problem.

How did you get that from what I wrote?

Really grow up.

I may have been mistaken. I'll cite the passage that whiffs of misogyny, but the incoherent mysticism bits would require me to cut and paste the entire post. So, I'll address the first objection with your own quote, and apply a summary of my own understanding to the second. Feel free to address either, if you'd like.

Everybody always thinks existence revolves around them especially the ladies, and especially the ones with big egos, but sad to say. Every dog has his day. Even the female dogs.

You do realize that dancing around the word "bitch" doesn't absolve you of have having said it in another form. And that classing women as a lump group as self-absorbed and egotistical is offensive and untrue, yes? You switch subjects midway through without properly delineating between two groups (Type X men and women), so other passages could be interpreted in this light, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Point two: You seem to have an advanced case of Ascension Fever. I understand, I have a touch of it myself. If you really think you've got a bead on this subject (and I sense you believe yourself to be the subject), it might be more conducive to the discussion if you spoke to your experiences as this type of dude in our type of society.

You used the word Warrior, and you said that this sort is key to our evolution; that they will drag us in blood and pain, if necessary, up the ladder. I found that interesting. If there is a disconnect between a portion of our male population and our social structure, I think that's important. I think we should try to understand it.

Because, see, I think the genes do matter; that the string of aminos you dismiss out of hand is the ladder we are climbing. I don't see where we leave off and our replacements begin. There is a continuity, and so this stuff is well worth discussing.

I'm also a fan of panspermia. I think that even if other planets are evolving their own life forms, it doesn't render what's happening on this planet irrelevant. And all the changes that will occur between now and several thousand years out don't render our existing here and now meaningless, nor does taking the long view preclude understanding our present situation. Yeah, we all get swept into the void, so what does it matter? It matters plenty to me.

And I bet it mattered so much to you, that it burnt you out; and now you're ready to swan-dive into the black. I understand that too. Either everything matters, or nothing does. Those are equally frightening propositions, and they may also be equally valid.

But, like I said, I could have been off in my interpretation, so feel free to set me straight.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


I totally could be off track. I'm okay with that. Doesn't hurt my feelings to be wrong.

However, there is some scant research out there about how some people's brains are changing using these technologies, and the study I mentioned at the top does indeed exist.

Then I can use myself as a base model, and I know me pretty well. I know what I've been doing, and seeing a variation of it in some other people peeks my interest greatly.

To what end? Well, the end is that I suspect that these men aren't some useless deadend. That their abilities are something useful that has become unattached in modern society. Using these people to bag groceries is ridiculous.

I suspect that there is enough of this type in the populace with a subset of these traits found in men not so disenfranchised, that if they all decide to get together that they can wreck havoc. Useful but potentially problematic.

The disaffection and then elimination of the tribal defender.

It also likely has unintended consequences to future human endevours. The concept of "Us" as a civilized bureaucratic whole is repugnant in many ways. One asteroid strike, and the grand dream of a civilized mass becomes a stupid mess of overly differentiated predator bait.

All right, so I had a really productive conversation with a buddy of mine on this subject.

Once we transcend the Tribe, we tend to aggregate in exponentially larger groups around an abstraction. That is our gift as humans, this ability. Unlike baboons, who can only organize in groups of no more than 40, we don't need to see our leader. A symbol of that leader will suffice, and we can rally in en masse around that symbol.

Currently, our prime organizing principle is commerce, and commerce demands global monoculture to create a homogenous group of consumers (homogenous, because it's easier to sell us stuff if we all share the same tastes).

When commerce encounters a heterogeneous group, it sends in the missionaries to destabilize the community, and then it sends in the corporations. Or, it sends in the military to raze existing infrastructure, and then it sends in the corporations. The old principles of War and Religion have both been subsumed to the needs of Commerce.

So, what's being phased out? Any type which doesn't serve Commerce. And that includes analytical types who have advanced pattern recognition skills (if they aren't inclined to go into marketing ).

Warriors and Wizards.

Monoculture is a dead end if there ever was one, and Commerce tends to end up eating its own tail.

Why do some of the smaaaht ones in the Warrior type end up not enlisting? Because they know that they aren't protecting their families and communities. They know that they are being used to facilitate Commerce, and they smell the dead end there.

So, what now? We need to find an organizing principle that isn't just another version of a resource grab. We lock that down, and I have a feeling we can accommodate all types.

And even if we don't, and commerce is the pathological phenomena I think it is, then maybe the way the Warriors are rerouting their wetwiring in real time is an adaptive response. Maybe they're the white blood cells, and maybe us analytical types are too.

Commerce has replaced war and religion because it enables us to organize in larger groups than those allowed by armies or denominations.

Aaaaand I guess I need to draw a distinction between capitalism and corporatism, as being beneficial and pathological manifestations of commerce.

It's gotten us where we are today, by driving technology and social equality. So there's that, but I still feel quite strongly that it's time to move on to something better. Something which allows us to gather and cooperate without demanding that we all be the same.

I completely agree that capitalism isn't the problem, but that the Corps are. What they've done just in the last couple of years is literal insanity. The Corps, and their mob counterparts and their version of corps and the government(s) acting as corps, are clearly functioning in a way that is going to tear the World apart for nothing.

They are garner so much money and resources it literally means nothing.

When challenged with a better system they are violently willing to undermine it, for no reason other than to control it.

Rule by organizational violent schizophrenia, backed by bureaucratic obstinacy. What a great way to run a World.


As a shorter term way of getting this particular individuated tribal member back into the fold, I think that exposing the game world could be a way of keeping them into the loop while society gets retooled a bit.

By exposing the game I mean taking the concept of the game system run by actual human body movement and enhancing it. Take the MMPORG / PVP streamed and take away the keyboard and joystick. Body commands and vocalization/subvocalization. This probably will require some enhancement in current coding practice, because the stream demands will be intensive. Then expose the whole thing for people to watch.

Give them commentators, and a TV channel. ESPN for Bio-Gamers. Lazersquest taken to a whole new level.

That should at least expose the game in such a way that it can be seen as something that might contain some cred that non-gamer women might notice at some, while allowing the trend for development of the capacity to rewire to continue.

I know that some people are going to be horribly offended by my suffragette-type feminism here, but the insane feminists should be mostly removing themselves from the breeding pool over the next century. So the mismatch between my type and theirs will eventually work out in my direction.

Coming into the conversation late....but here nonetheless.

Without going too far into Jungian psychology, there is a lot to be said about understanding the archetypal nature of the human mind and personality.

I, too, am a very strong woman... Intellectually and physically. It takes a man who can meet me, step for step, both physically and intellectually to gain and keep my interest. Many of my personality traits are "dominant" or "masculine" in nature. Yet, there is no doubt that I have and know how to leverage my feminine side. I feel it is an important purpose in life to explore.....and balance....each of those aspects. What's the saying about "there's a time and a purpose for everything?" That includes the weak, meek, strong, repugnant, ill.....all of it. All of the archetypal spectrum is needed and serves a purpose. Perhaps the REAL question you need to ponder is the "mental filter" that allows you to readily recognize one archetype over another? That is the question I would pose to the men in the OP's link.

As for inherited "functional purupose," it would be interested to look at that on a more scientific level. Personally, it does not fit for me. I do not have the same "profession," or anything close to it, as anyone in my immediate family or even in my direct family lineage. The same can be said about my mother, or her mother, and so on....

In regards to a general statement of "its all the same down the line," I think that can mostly be explained by the Bell curve. Most people have heard of the "Bell curve" but don't truly understand it.

en.wikipedia.org...

Essentially, it means most people "follow the crowd" with a small percentage falling outside the norms on both the lower scale and upper scale. Combine this with the undeniable truth that "energy takes the path of least resistance...." If you are a blacksmith because your father was a blacksmith and his father was a blacksmith....so on and so on....it is simply "following the crowd" or the "path of least resistance." There are no new trails to blaze because the knowledge is passed down almost osmotically through general everyday living.

I'm sure

I don't think that everyone is going to have traits that show trait selection bias. And I doubt very much that you will often find this trait selection being shown the professions of women, but in the males they select more often in the European and Asian groups at least.

In cases of hundreds or thousands of years of selection bias, enforced or natural, I don't think that the refinement process can be discounted as just osmosis. My husband was unaware of this progression, his family history had become unseated by a bastard child, two generations of farmers, along with it being a female line in a fundamentalist protestant family. In other words, the women didn't matter so nobody paid any attention to passing along that information. Not important.

My own matrilinear line does not show this sort of consistent bias at least for the last 5 generations. However, I suspect that because women get more of their father's genetics men do, they have the possibility of switch hitting with dominant traits of their father's matrilinear descent. In this case, I would suspect that the women in my father's matrilinear line have indeed been selecting for a set of specific traits for quite some time. (I wish we had an icon of someone putting up the middle finger here.)

As for inherited "functional purupose," it would be interested to look at that on a more scientific level. Personally, it does not fit for me. I do not have the same "profession," or anything close to it, as anyone in my immediate family or even in my direct family lineage...In regards to a general statement of "its all the same down the line," I think that can mostly be explained by the Bell curve. Most people have heard of the "Bell curve" but don't truly understand it.

en.wikipedia.org...

This seems far more plausible, but way less fun than the notion of hereditary professions. But I wasn't putting any serious weight on that one. I am, however, very much attached to the notion that there might be archetypes there in our base code, surfacing and receding in adaptive response to shifting cultural tides.

Also, got some anecdotal evidence of an Intersect between the gamer community and Gym Rat culture. All the dudes I know who are fully into FSP PvP are also spending a couple of hours a day at the gym.

So, I followed that up a little:
www.cybergamer.com.au...
forum.teamxbox.com...

Holy crap, 300 threads on weightlifting, holy crap.

This is essentially what I think too, that these archetypes are inherent patterns, and that they can be best demonstrated to exist by seeing the extreme example of a consistent selection bias for it in some case families.

Not that I'm suggesting this is the only thing people might be, as the old-school feudal systems did. That's your place, stay there. More that these are like showing where a genetic difference might occur by finding a family that shows it up in a consistent manner. Like how they proved out the genetic oddity of the "wolfman" families.

Originally posted by mistermonculousAlso, got some anecdotal evidence of an Intersect between the gamer community and Gym Rat culture. All the dudes I know who are fully into FSP PvP are also spending a couple of hours a day at the gym.

So, I followed that up a little:
www.cybergamer.com.au...
forum.teamxbox.com...

Holy crap, 300 threads on weightlifting, holy crap.

How many of these guys are interested in having families? Because the ones that seem most disenfranchised seem to have the want to breed.

Some of these guys just into the gaming don't seem interested in families, and many of the gymrats I've met aren't either.

But the ones motivated by the Body-Politic do. Is this the difference?

A Heinleinien reference seems necessary here.

Starship Troopers

RASCZAK: You. Tell me the moral difference, if any, between the citizen and the civilian?
JOHNNY: The difference lies in the field of civic virtue. A citizen accepts personal responsibility for the safety of the body politic, of which he is a member, defending it, if need be, with his life. The civilian does not.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy Perhaps the REAL question you need to ponder is the "mental filter" that allows you to readily recognize one archetype over another?

I don't think we have this filter anymore. It has been removed with the removal of the rich cultural mythological context of cultures.

So if we are seeing it, we might be seeing it despite multiple generations of trying to deny the existence of the tribe.

reply to post by mistermonculous

You do realize that dancing around the word "bitch" doesn't absolve you of have having said it in another form. And that classing women as a lump group as self-absorbed and egotistical is offensive and untrue, yes? You switch subjects midway through without properly delineating between two groups (Type X men and women), so other passages could be interpreted in this light, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

There are two types of dogs male dogs and female dogs....And every dog has his day....It does not get much clearer then that. Just like there are two types of humans, male humans and female humans, yet they to will have there day...Sorry I have no time or want to explain things to you in a much more clearer way, really you would not even understand it, and it would take way to much writing...

But it does not matter, it is unimportant. You should ask yourself why do you see more in what I wrote then what I put down.

Point two: You seem to have an advanced case of Ascension Fever. I understand, I have a touch of it myself. If you really think you've got a bead on this subject (and I sense you believe yourself to be the subject), it might be more conducive to the discussion if you spoke to your experiences as this type of dude in our type of society.

Sorry I don't know what that is, and the people who do have such a fever are not me. And yes you best look at yourself for such things. But if you want you can guess all you want about me.

You used the word Warrior, and you said that this sort is key to our evolution; that they will drag us in blood and pain, if necessary, up the ladder. I found that interesting. If there is a disconnect between a portion of our male population and our social structure, I think that's important. I think we should try to understand it.

Oh no really....You think so do you. You dam right you should try to understand it. Now go and do that.

Because, see, I think the genes do matter; that the string of aminos you dismiss out of hand is the ladder we are climbing. I don't see where we leave off and our replacements begin. There is a continuity, and so this stuff is well worth discussing.

From the greatest weakness comes the greatest strength....A ladder is only important if you do not know any other way of getting to the place your trying to get to. And were you all leave off, is were your replacements will begin. Continuation etc etc etc.

I'm also a fan of panspermia. I think that even if other planets are evolving their own life forms, it doesn't render what's happening on this planet irrelevant. And all the changes that will occur between now and several thousand years out don't render our existing here and now meaningless, nor does taking the long view preclude understanding our present situation. Yeah, we all get swept into the void, so what does it matter? It matters plenty to me.

Yes its a very humorous theory....Almost as the one they got on evolution. If you can not live in the void and become the void or of the void, then you will perish.....End of Story.

However all things have meaning, even life.

And I bet it mattered so much to you, that it burnt you out; and now you're ready to swan-dive into the black. I understand that too. Either everything matters, or nothing does. Those are equally frightening propositions, and they may also be equally valid.

Nah i am just here of my own free will almost like everybody else is, so the only person I can really blame is me.....But really I am just bored and want to get this over with, so I can go home. Everything matters...Everything does not matter. Hey! Did you know that a mind is a terrible waste of time.

But, like I said, I could have been off in my interpretation, so feel free to set me straight.

Oh yes, very much so off...But here I will help you understand...

I present you exhibit A.


I present you exhibit B.


Any more questions?

reply to post by Aeons

However, there is some scant research out there about how some people's brains are changing using these technologies, and the study I mentioned at the top does indeed exist.

Yes its all changing, it's not just there for fun you know.

To what end? Well, the end is that I suspect that these men aren't some useless deadend. That their abilities are something useful that has become unattached in modern society. Using these people to bag groceries is ridiculous.

Oh there already used for something's, most cant learn anything from bagging groceries yet some can learn life's secrets doing it. They are not just some useless deadend as you thought. But either way many shall pay for it.

I suspect that there is enough of this type in the populace with a subset of these traits found in men not so disenfranchised, that if they all decide to get together that they can wreck havoc. Useful but potentially problematic.

You still assume it's not how it should be or that this current society is nothing but a respite. Like I said there all focusing on breaking trough....And when the new path is seen, the old shall crumble with there passing. There are no problems it is how it always was.

The disaffection and then elimination of the tribal defender.

Oh yes most went bye bye. And the rest are following. So follow along.

It also likely has unintended consequences to future human endevours. The concept of "Us" as a civilized bureaucratic whole is repugnant in many ways. One asteroid strike, and the grand dream of a civilized mass becomes a stupid mess of overly differentiated predator bait.

You assume there is actually even a concrete concept of "Us" Hey the lizards were striving for millions of years, and were dominant for more millions of years, and were on there slow march to change or death for more millions of years....And after all that, they became birds.

You still think survival is important. Or that it really matters, humanity has yet to survive or live long enough to even begin understanding such things. Even with all there "advances" and skipping ahead of the curb, all of that just leaves them without all the experiences required to know why some things are not to be skipped over. They will all see.

But anyways crowded places are only fun for a bit, mass civilizations and all that are only fun for a while. And the illusions that keep them all in place to function will only last for a while as well.