The New Revolution:The Haves vs. Have-nots

I started this thread in concern of our society and it's current situation. The concern for each and every person out there. I have so many thoughts, and I don't often start threads. I mostly stay to myself, trying to better what I can around me and set those that are astray back in the direction they should be heading. If you have any questions you want to ask me, feel free. This thread isn't just about what I'm about to say, but about all of us. I want this thread to be a discussion:I am highly against name calling, jumping to conclusions, interruptions, and rant messages. I want each and every one of you to think carefully before posting and take others viewpoints and feelings into consideration. If anyone violates any of these things or T & C I will Flag you.

The people of Occupy Wall Street (and by extension the whole operation) are commendable in their intentions. However, they are unorganized, have no clear demands, have no clear solutions, continue to list the same overall wrongs without naming specifics of incidents or laws/regulations. They use language that anyone would use talking to each other when expressing general ideas. I am not saying they are wrong, this is not an attack.

I agree with most points each member I have heard, or read, and they bring up logical aspects of our corrupt government. However, they have not taken into consideration the complex nature of the situation they, and the rest of American Society, and by extension mankind, are in. They have not gathered collectively in a way that is understood by our government or everyday people not concerned with politics. These are the people you have to win over, and you message is lost to them.

Occupy (as I shall call it heretofore) has not done their work. They have not reviewed, studied, investigated, planned, or discussed with each other. They are ill-prepared and as they are now will only be another sentence in the history books.

I would like to represent each and every American. I would like to stand for our moral grounds, but guarantee our freedom in our lives. I don't know where, how, when I will do any of this, but I want to make that dire impact our society needs right now to get back on track.

I don't really know what to say right now, so I'll leave it at this. Don't consider yourself alone, don't think no one cares or sees from your perspective. We're all people living in the same world. By these facts we should be helping one another, especially now, any opportunity we have.

They are going against the wrong people..

DC controls wallstreet
the feds controls DC..

It is not rocket science.
End the Feds, End DC.

End DC End Wallstreet as we know it..

Wallstreet is being allowed to manipulate the system
through SHORT SELLING!!

Easy as that, complaining and whining as what OWS
is doing about the people on the bottom of the totem pole
will not do a damn thing..

The have's will always have.

The have not's just need a chance to have.

TY for your perspective op.

reply to post by Xen0m0rpH


OWS, in large part, represents the parasite class vs the host class. Our society has become stratified because so many now depend on so few for so much. People want to be freed from the cost of their decisions and make someone else should that burden.

I had a child when I wasn’t ready … gimme free day care so I can work.
I majored in critical LGBT theory at NYU and now can’t pay off my $100k in student loans … forgive my debt.
I bought too much house and cant afford the motgage … gimme a writedown.
I want to live the life of a big city hipster but cant afford groceries because my career as a documentary filmmaker hasn’t taken off … gimme free housing and free food.

Naturally, all these freebies are going to cost someone something. The OWS thinks the “rich” can shoulder this bill but what history show us is that every time the “rich” are soaked a lot of not so rich, but very productive people, wind up getting wet as well.

I will give the OWS some more credit if they were only calling for Wall street and the banks being held responsible for their poor decisions. Not jail time or lynchings, but a dramatic and proportional loss of their fortunes. You ran a bank, made bad loans, then your assets will cover you obligations, not the government. When you decouple the risk reward relationship its only natural to see people make increasingly poor decisions … OWS seems to desire everyone the “right” to make these poor decisions instead of letting the markets regulate these things the way the market does best: no personal reward without personal risk.

I almost see OWS as much like the bankers and finance people they seem to hate so much.

Originally posted by Xen0m0rpH

The people of Occupy Wall Street (and by extension the whole operation) are commendable in their intentions. However, they are unorganized, have no clear demands, have no clear solutions, continue to list the same overall wrongs without naming specifics of incidents or laws/regulations. They use language that anyone would use talking to each other when expressing general ideas. I am not saying they are wrong, this is not an attack.

I agree with most points each member I have heard, or read, and they bring up logical aspects of our corrupt government. However, they have not taken into consideration the complex nature of the situation they, and the rest of American Society, and by extension mankind, are in. They have not gathered collectively in a way that is understood by our government or everyday people not concerned with politics. These are the people you have to win over, and you message is lost to them.

Occupy (as I shall call it heretofore) has not done their work. They have not reviewed, studied, investigated, planned, or discussed with each other. They are ill-prepared and as they are now will only be another sentence in the history books.

I would like to represent each and every American. I would like to stand for our moral grounds, but guarantee our freedom in our lives. I don't know where, how, when I will do any of this, but I want to make that dire impact our society needs right now to get back on track.

I don't really know what to say right now, so I'll leave it at this. Don't consider yourself alone, don't think no one cares or sees from your perspective. We're all people living in the same world. By these facts we should be helping one another, especially now, any opportunity we have.

Excellent OP. I completely agree with the sentiments you have expressed. All this back and forth about OWS is tiring. Like you, I would also like to facilitate the impact our country needs right now. I’m ready and waiting to get on board with a bigger movement for real change. The problem we face is a problem that has been around forever and sadly it isn’t going away…the country is divided and it doesn’t seem we can even come together on the beliefs we do share (by “we” I mean the Tea Party, OWS, OTF).

I felt the same way about the Tea Party as some people feel about OWS now - Why won’t everybody get behind it? - Do they not see how bad we need to fix this? The reality is….no, we are too divided to come together and we cannot agree on a solution. Sad to say but I think “divided we will fall”. None of the movements will get enough support from the general public to affect real change.

For me, I’m glad the Tea Party has had success getting people I agree with into office. Unfortunately, it hasn’t been enough. I hope that will change when (if) we make it to the next election but I doubt they will attack the real issues enough to satisfy the feeling of Americans today. The change that’s needed in our country is monumental and takes time…time we may not have.

reply to post by Xen0m0rpH
The problem with a war between the haves and the have-nots, is that if the have-nots win, then they become the haves because they will take from the previous haves.
Thus building a whole new class of have-nots.
Who will be spurred to start a war.
To take from the haves.

ad nauseum.

Who really profits are neither the haves nor the have-nots. The true profitier is the one who gains from the transfer of power. Not in who gets it, or keeps it.

Originally posted by Xen0m0rpH
..The people of Occupy Wall Street (and by extension the whole operation) are commendable in their intentions. However, they are unorganized...

The whole thing is organized by ultra-liberal organzations, as well as being provocateured by those same deadbeats. C'mon people......THINK!!!!

It's not the IDEA that I'm bashing, that's for sure, but it's obvious this whole thing is fake. IT'S NOT REAL! Once again, the establishment is laughing at the chattle.:shk: This is all misdirection, and the globalist media is selling you on it.

I should be laughing at the chattle too for cryin' out loud, problem is, I'm one of them by default and I'd be doing nothing but laughing at myself.

Always watch the other hand.

Peace

Originally posted by Dr Love

Originally posted by Xen0m0rpH
..The people of Occupy Wall Street (and by extension the whole operation) are commendable in their intentions. However, they are unorganized...

The whole thing is organized by ultra-liberal organzations, as well as being provocateured by those same deadbeats. C'mon people......THINK!!!!

It's not the IDEA that I'm bashing, that's for sure, but it's obvious this whole thing is fake. IT'S NOT REAL! Once again, the establishment is laughing at the chattle.:shk: This is all misdirection, and the globalist media is selling you on it.

I should be laughing at the chattle too for cryin' out loud, problem is, I'm one of them by default and I'd be doing nothing but laughing at myself.

Always watch the other hand.

Peace

What's not real, Dr Love?? The protests? The anger of many American's about the country we thought we had being stolen by TPTB?

Are you speaking of the conspiracy that these protests and the public outrage have been intentionally fabricated to facility a bigger operation or bigger power grab?

These Occupy protests were never about change. They were merely an awakening to the fact there is something very wrong with the world, and these newly enlightened people want to let the “elites” know that they have grown hip to the scam that is the American Dream. They have realized, much like the Tea Party realized the government was infected with Lobbyist-owned politicians, that the Lobbyist are, themselves, owned by corporations, both foreign and domestic, and their [the protesters] words, while powerful, will galvanize no real change in this broken system, however they can and are galvanizing people into finally acting on their disdain of the lie that is our current monetary and governmental powers.
But these protests are not the catalyst to true change; they are merely a rally cry to rouse supporters. A public display of passion for a cause most would get behind.
Change will not come without force.
The thought is unpleasant, nay scary, but the truth remains; history has shown that evolution results from catastrophe, and if we want to see this world evolve from the crippled, one sided, weak state it is in, then something massive is going to have to change. Guess who isn’t prepared to let go of their way of life. Guess who is prepared to act to change theirs.
Like it or not, Revolution is brewing. It is inevitable.
The OWS protesters will likely not be the orchestrators of this coming shift, but they are serving as its herald.

Originally posted by seabag
....Are you speaking of the conspiracy that these protests and the public outrage have been intentionally fabricated to facility a bigger operation or bigger power grab?

Could be....hard to tell what the endgame is here.

Peace

reply to post by Dr Love


The real conspiracy here is how a small group of corporitist elites convinced an entire nation that their problems are rooted in an eternal struggle between liberalism and conservatism.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The same 50 companies buy and pay for every politician, regardless of affiliation in party or ideology. The only thing any of them care about is the end-game, which is to transfer as much wealth and power as they can before the inevitable backlash and crackdown.

In a very real sense, both liberalism and conservatism are failed ideologies because neither is capable of addressing the core issue: You and I are infotainment slaves, and everything you see, hear, read or watch is designed to reinforce your chains.

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
These Occupy protests were never about change. They were merely an awakening to the fact there is something very wrong with the world, and these newly enlightened people want to let the “elites” know that they have grown hip to the scam that is the American Dream. They have realized, much like the Tea Party realized the government was infected with Lobbyist-owned politicians, that the Lobbyist are, themselves, owned by corporations, both foreign and domestic, and their [the protesters] words, while powerful, will galvanize no real change in this broken system, however they can and are galvanizing people into finally acting on their disdain of the lie that is our current monetary and governmental powers.
But these protests are not the catalyst to true change; they are merely a rally cry to rouse supporters. A public display of passion for a cause most would get behind.
Change will not come without force.
The thought is unpleasant, nay scary, but the truth remains; history has shown that evolution results from catastrophe, and if we want to see this world evolve from the crippled, one sided, weak state it is in, then something massive is going to have to change. Guess who isn’t prepared to let go of their way of life. Guess who is prepared to act to change theirs.
Like it or not, Revolution is brewing. It is inevitable.
The OWS protesters will likely not be the orchestrators of this coming shift, but they are serving as its herald.

edit on 12-10-2011 by FugitiveSoul because: (no reason given)

You may very well be right. Call me old fashioned but I still hold out hope that democracy can work despite all of the things we’ve read and seen to the contrary. All of the other circumstances where revolution was needed to affect real change happened in countries that were not democracies (unless you can tell me otherwise). And they damn sure didn’t have the will of the American people behind their movements.

I believe the awakening of the public that we’re seeing can force change in the system…but ONLY IF we can have a unified message and set of demands and we refuse to tolerate voter fraud, voter intimidation, corruption from our elected officials, and we demand and enforce true transparency. We must get more organized and focused or it’s all for not! The elections are a year away so there is time to make it happen. Whether or not it will is anyone’s guess.

reply to post by seabag


I agree wholeheartedly. A functioning Democracy, or even a Republic as it were, would be a splendid solution to this crisis. The issue lies in that our “power to the people” style of government is an illusion. If we had the choice to vote in people who weren’t swayed by financial or political gain then the system would work, but as long as the dice are loaded, we will never see a fair game. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter which politician you vote in, as long as both are owned by the same corporations, we will never see change or legislation designed to promote universal monetary growth.

I agree with you.

The way I see it, it's never going to change.

Corruption at it's core is caused by humanity itself. It doesn't matter how many of these elites (TPTB or guys sitting behind curtains pulling strings) you kill off, there will always be more.

Besides, in order for us to change the current situation, the current economy and the future of America, we must first educated ourselves.

We need to be more than the Average Joe.

The elites does not like a smart population, that is fact. With the Information Technology as advanced as today, educating yourself is the easy part.

The hard part is... we need to get rid of a certain mentality. Now I like to quote George Carlin at this particular point in time.... "Willful Ignorance".

You see, the problem is that even if we are fully aware of the corrupt things going on in the world, a lot of us choose to turn the other cheek.

Protesting at Wall Street is not going to help. Especially as the OP said, they have no plans, no idea how to make things better, no real solutions and some of them aren't even really clear on where the real problem stems. This is called an angry mob, they shouldn't be called.. "Protesters".

Oh.. and I just want to add.

Try to think of it this way. The very people/elites who caused the current economic condition has no moral, no remorse, no mercy and no guilt feelings towards anything they've done.

Essentially, you can think of it this way.

A snake oil salesman tried to sell you snake oil. You were too stupid to figure it out because you didn't educate yourself well enough. Then your money got swindled and now you're angry.

Morally speaking, I would never cheat a poor, uneducated farmer out of his life savings. However, I can't speak for the rest of humanity.

Haves vs Have-nots thingy was also very hot in the end of 19th and beginning of 20th century. It was actually beneficial in some places (where bridges were not burned and people spoke with each other instead of booing and lynching) and it ended very badly in few places where this The New Revolution happened. For Haves, and Have-nots.
And boy, people in those few places had a plan and were organized, all right. Wrote tons of tomes of books,before and after.

Alot of people are assuming that the protesters are leeches on society looking for everything for free.

Have any of these detractors even LOOKED at the official demands? There are some really good ideas on that list and I don't see anything about free stuff.

You took what you were told by the MSM at the start of this and now you're blinded by partisan bull crap.

Look at what they are asking for yourselves: coupmedia.org...

There is NOTHING about taking what others have earned and giving to those who haven't.

There ARE some pretty good sounding ways to address the problems.

So quit parroting what FOX news tells you and look for yourself and then tell me which of the 8 demands presented sounds like they want ANYTHING for free.

reply to post by popsmayhem


WRONGO!!!!

OWS is going after the right people, they jusy don't grasp the real reason why.

In chess, the pawns are the first to need attention, the first to be deployed, and the largest force.

Pawns are also those who are only given enough info, not able to see big picture, don't question their leader, and blindly do as told.


Who are the first the elites deploy? cops

and here's the link for proof thatthe cops are the pawns of the enemy.

www.truth-out.org... city-cops-their-payroll/1318431123














who have a real knack for abusive physical intervention? cops
who are the largest force the elites have? cops
as long as the 1% have their pawns, they are untouchable..

Who exactly is a parasite or a leech or an unproductive member of society? Someone who is not working? that sounds logical but I know people who were made to drop out of school in these back woods where I live when they were 7 and 8 yrs old so they could work there butts off on the farm or in the woods doing hard labour. Once they hit their forties there bodies are broken and they can no longer work, alot of them are now on disability and are aged beyond their years. Are they now parasites. What about the women with children who for whatever reason ended up as single parents and are now working their butts off for minimum wage and having their income subsidized by the government because their wages are so far below the poverty line for today's costs,that there children would hardly be able to eat without the subsidies, are they leeches because they are on the system. What about those who have contributed for years and are now older with serious chronic illnesses and are no longer able to work, are they of no value.

Quite a number of you are probably relatively young and able bodied. But if you were to be involved in a car crash and sustain a permanent head injury, or phsyical injury then your life would change overnight. That is hard enough to deal with but it is these judgements of who is productive and who is not in society that can really hurt.

It is a humiliating thing to be in a situation of having to rely on help of some kind. It doesn't help when people make generalizations of everyone who is not working or everyone who is being subsidized. When these words are bandied about, parasite, leech, unproductive you are making generelizations of whole groups of individual people and their individual circumstances.

Of course if someone is blessed to be the product of well off and supportive parents who provide them a comfortable life and a paid for college or university education then they will more that likely never be referred to as a parasite, same with someone who is left a nice trust fund to live off of. There are good and bad have-nots and their are good and bad haves. What about people who are working hard and paying their own ways in life by working for the military industrial complex or monsanto, are they contributing and being productive to society because they are working and paying their own way in life.

Generalizing hurts real people either way. To me, it is the psychopaths among us who are the real enemy, be they rich, poor or super rich, but it is the psychopaths with power to affect whole societies that are the most dangerous of all. They run in all parties and every stripe of political and corporate power. Let's not lose our compassion for eachother. Those of us who have a conscience.

Fake?

Herman cain just came out and advocated increasing the cost of living for the bottom 50 percent of all Americans...the poorest half of the country...while cutting taxes for everyone else....class warfare at it's finest.

I said it last year.....kids are leaving college, huge debt and no jobs available...people have been unemployed for a long time and continue to be trashed by certain media...and flat out ignored by others. The elderly are barely making it while costs explode and their Social Security payments remain stagnant.

If we keep pushing the direction we are going, it's going to get worse. I knew t his was going to happen...yes organizations or entities may jump in to help fund the protests...just like the tea parties...but what is happening is real.

The pain that is out there is real. Some people out there wanted a revolution...but the revolution some of you wanted isn't the one that is going to happen.

Push people to the brink, and they will pop. Soon they will pop.

You can see this coming a mile away. It's the failure of those to concede that will bring about what is soon to come.