Colombian Soccer Player Reportedly Detained in Saudi Arabia Over Jesus Tattoo

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You can't pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe in. You either believe it all or nothing.
A cross or the image of Jesus IS a graven image.
I take it you have up on the fish argument?

Originally posted by damwel
reply to post by OldCorp

 

This is a lie. Posted to further hate against Muslims. There is no war on christianity in Saudi Arabia. The king's highest minister is a Christian so quit lying. It had nothing to do with Jesus it had everything to do with displaying tatoos in public. If there's any war of hate being fostered it is you and your ilk.

That was the most ridiculous thing I've heard all week, and it appears to be you who is lying:

Saudi Christian community today

There are more than a million Roman Catholics in Saudi Arabia, most of them are expatriates Filipinos and Indians who work there, but who do not have the citizenship of Saudi Arabia. The percentage of Christians of all denominations among the about 1.2 million Filipinos in Saudi Arabia likely exceeds 90%. There are also Christians from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Kenya and as well a number of Christians from sub-Saharan countries who are working in the Saudi Kingdom.

Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly, because of that Christians generally only worship in secret within private homes. Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are prohibited. These include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols, and others.

The Saudi Arabian Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) prohibits the practice of any religion other than Islam. Conversion of a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy, a crime punishable by death (Capital punishment in Saudi Arabia) if the accused does not recant. The Government does not permit non-Muslim clergy to enter the country for the purpose of conducting religious services.

International Christian Concern (ICC) protested what it reported as the 2001 detention of 11 Christians in Saudi Arabia, for practicing their religion in their homes. In June 2004, ICC reported on what it termed a "pogrom-like" crackdown by Saudi police on Christians after media reports of Koran desecration in Guantanamo Bay.

Churches

Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination. The small number of Saudi Arabian Christians meets in internet chat rooms and private meetings. Foreign Christians may meet at church meetings held at one of several embassies after registering and showing their passport to prove foreign nationality, or by private assemblies in school gyms located in gated communities on Aramco grounds. They can also hold services in each others houses.

Demographics

The percentage of Saudi Arabian citizens who are Christians is officially zero, as Saudi Arabia forbids religious conversion from Islam (Apostasy) and punishes it by death (Capital punishment in Saudi Arabia).
Wiki

Since the official census in S.A. says there are ZERO Christians who are counted as citizens, I find it extremely difficult to believe that one of the government ministers is a Christian - especially considering the fact that they are all part of the Saud family.

reply to post by OldCorp

Since the official census in S.A. says there are ZERO Christians who are counted as citizens, I find it extremely difficult to believe that one of the government ministers is a Christian - especially considering the fact that they are all part of the Saud family.

On that you are quite correct. The saudis make the Taliban look like the Girl Scouts.
i know it's wiki but... Freedom of religion in Saudi Arabia

Tolerance is not a practice in Muslim countries.

Everyone else needs to practice tolerance towards Muslims but they do not have to reciprocate.

If you travel to Saudi Arabia and bring a bible, they will shred it. If you sneeze on a Koran, your blaspheme and should be killed.

Thanks for replying rhazer, and proving that in fact Taqiyya (everyone spells it differently) is indeed prevalent among Muslims. In my post, I'm going to take your comments out of order for the sake of clarity, but I will address them all.

Originally posted by rhazer

And let me tell you another thing , please be assured of this, there is NO such thing as TAQIYYAH in islam, and whoever tells you there is is either misinformed or fallen to propaganda.trust me i am a muslim and i know.and alot of what the OP is saying is incorrect.

Taqiyya (alternate spellings taqiya, taqiyah, tuqyah), meaning religious dissimulation,[1] is a practice emphasized in Shi'a Islam whereby adherents may conceal their religion when they are under threat, persecution, or compulsion.[2] This means a legal dispensation whereby a believing individual can deny his faith or commit otherwise illegal or blasphemous acts while they are under those risks. ~ Wiki

i am a muslim, and i can honestly tell you , 90% of all that goes on around here and all the talk you people "talk" is absolute BS.

In light of the fact that Taqiyyah DOES exist, and IS practiced by Muslims as shown above, please forgive me if I can't take what you say at face value.

you know nothing of islam except what you read from western books or ill translations or by just looking at illiterate brainwashed people who blow themsleves up....

I beg to differ. As a journalist, I'm well aware of the concept of propaganda. So when I go to search for information on Islam, I don't go to Pamela Geller's blog; I go to English language sites run by Muslims to see what THEY have to say. I have also read a good deal of the Koran myself, and a good bit of the Suras as well. From what I have read, everything I have said about Islam is 100% accurate.

let me ask you, if islam strictly tells you NOT to kill another muslim, yet a muslim goes and does that, does he represent islam? you think a muslim is an identity on paper that you are born with?

You know how they can murder their fellow Muslims and feel justified as well as I do. Any Muslim who is declared an apostate faces the death penalty, either by sword or car bomb. The Shia and Sunni sects have both declared the other to be apostates, so they feel as if they are doing the will of God when they kill their brethren.

If I were you, instead of bitching at me, I'd be pretty pissed off if my fellow worshipers were being murdered every single day as they kneel down to pray in a mosque. I'm pretty sure the Almighty is going to be pissed at ANYONE - Muslim, Christian, and Jew alike - who murder in His name.

I'm running out of space for this post. I will continue my reply in the next post.

Originally posted by Aestheteka

. . .
A cross or the image of Jesus IS a graven image.
. . .

Are those images worshiped and placed before YHWH?

Unless you are also claiming that YHWH broke his own law by commanding Moses to make a bronze serpent (which Yeshua used as a prophecy).

And maybe YHWH did not really approve when He said He did, of the temple adorned with cherubim . . . never mind the ark of the covenant.

CONTINUED REPLY TO RHAZER...

I can assure you the MAHDi, is not the muslim messiah as you incorrectly state, Jesus is the muslim messiah, the mahdi will come at the end of times and he will fight a war against tyranny and to bring peace to this world, and he will fight the antichrist , and jesus will kill the AC .

Jesus in Islam

NOT "THE Messiah":
Another title frequently mentioned is al-Masīḥ, which translates to "the Messiah". This does not correspond to the Christian concept of Messiah, as Islam regards all prophets, including Jesus, to be mortal and without any share in divinity. Muslim exegetes explain the use of the word masīh in the Qur'an as referring to Jesus' status as the one anointed by means of blessings and honors; or as the one who helped cure the sick, by anointing the eyes of the blind, for example.

NOT the Son of God:

Islam rejects the Christian view that Jesus was God incarnate or the son of God, that he was ever crucified or resurrected, or that he ever atoned for the sins of mankind. The Qur'an says that Jesus himself never claimed any of these things, and it furthermore indicates that Jesus will deny having ever claimed divinity at the Last Judgment, and God will vindicate him. ~ Wiki

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Muslims say that the Torah and the Bible are Holy Scripture, incomplete, but Holy nevertheless. They believe that God's message wasn't completed until Mohammed made his appearance and introduced Islam to the world. Any problem with that statement?

As indicated in the Wiki quote above, Muslims claim that Christ was not the Son of God and never even made the claim. That is utterly disputed in the Bible, which Muslims claim to be Holy, in the statements made by Christ Himself.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father?”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

For dozens more verses from the Bible, proving Christ's divinity, please click this link.

And now we come to the Mahdi:

In Sunni and Shia eschatology, the Mahdi (Arabic: مهدي‎ / ISO 233: mahdī / English: Guided One) is the prophesied redeemer of Islam who will stay on Earth for seven, nine or nineteen years (according to various interpretations) before the Day of Judgment (yawm al-qiyamah / literally, the Day of Resurrection) and, alongside Jesus, will rid the world of wrongdoing, injustice and tyranny.

Possible Biblical interpretations

In their book, Al Mahdi and the End of Time, Muhammad ibn Izzat and Muhammad Arif, two well-known Egyptian authors, identify the Mahdi in the Book of Revelation, quoting the hadith narrator Ka'ab al-Ahbar.

In one place, they write,

“I find the Mahdi recorded in the books of the Prophets… For instance, the Book of Revelation says: “And I saw and behold a white horse. He that sat on him […] went forth conquering and to conquer.”

Ibn Izzat and Arif then go on to say:

“It is clear that this man is the Mahdi who will ride the white horse and judge by the Qur’an (with justice) and with whom will be men with marks of prostration (zabiba) on their foreheads.” ~ Wiki

Dang, out of space again. Gotta get my boy from church too. Gimme 45 min to BRB

FINAL POST IN REPLY TO RHAZER

Revelation 6

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. ~ Biblegateway.com

I think these Muslim authors may have inadvertently stumbled on a truth. If you'll look at the characteristics of the horses and their riders, you'll notice that none of them are good guys. They bring about war, famine, and disease. There is am interesting theory these days that the Islamic Mahdi, and Islam in general, is actually the Biblical Antichrist. This concept is explained in some detail by Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist who in recent years has converted to Christianity.




Shoebat is not alone as a former Muslim who has realized that Islam is a false religion.



Nor are former Muslims the only ones who disagree with the way contemporary Muslims interpret the Koran. Khaleel Mohammed, assistant professor of religious studies at San Diego State University, says that Israel belongs to the Jews, and that by invading and occupying the Holy Land, and persecuting Jews, Muslims are committing blasphemy and are not being true to the Koran. It is important to remember that he is currently a Muslim when reading this interview.

Here is a short quote from a different interview in which he explains his support for Israel:

So what's the reason for Dr. Mohammed's support for Israel? Chapter 5, verse 21 in the Quran offers proof of a divine promise to the Jews of a land of their own in the Holy Land:

"Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers." According to Dr. Mohammed, if God has "written" that the land is for the Jews, what human can erase His handwriting?

Dr. Mohammed also cites chapter 2:40, which says, "O children of Israel! Call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you."

Furthermore, Dr. Mohammed contends the Quran never mentions Jerusalem as a holy city.
~ The Dissenting Muslim

But what seals the deal for me, aside from the fact that Muslims refuse to recognize the divinity of Christ, are the attributes of Mohammed as described in the Koran. Mohammed admits, and is indeed proud of, the fact that he was a liar, thief, rapist, murderer, and pedophile. I know reading those words angers you and I'm sorry for that, but you can read it for yourself in whatever translation or version of the Koran you choose to pick up. When you compare the life of Mohammed to ANY of the other prophets of God, you will find NO similarities. There is nothing about the man that could be considered "holy" in any way.

Brother, I don't hate you, and I don't hate Muslims. As far as I'm concerned, we are all children of the God of Abraham, and no Father wants His children to be enslaving or killing each other. All I ask is that you take an honest look at Islam without having an imam interpret it for you.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

i'll thank you to lose your "holier than thou" attitude.

That makes two of us. Real Christians don't berate each other and speak in condescending tones. That's just rude, and definitely not Christ-like.

Aside from the country of Saudi Arabia, where music is illegal, for example. . . Islam itself enforces these crazy laws the Islamic countries have. Yes, and then there's taqqiya, sharia, and all that, but I don't think Islam will survive the century.

Eventually the "death for apostasy" will cease to be enforced, and at least 1/3 of Muslims will leave Islam immediately. For proof, look at the statistics for Iranian-Americans. 1/3 leave Islam after leaving Iran. Within a few years, 2/3 Muslims will leave Islam once they begin to be exposed to other religions, science, education, freedom, etc... The Muslims left will likely split between Radicals (aka, the Muslims who follow the Koran) and Moderates who WILL and MUST change the Koran and start a tangent form of Islam. Problem solved.

The Muslim's main prophet (PBUH) died from a slow-poisoning. He had enemies who were trying to kill him, and the prophet only took a sip of the poison so it didn't kill him immediately, but gave him chronic health problems which eventually took his life. . . . . . . . . . In comparison, Jesus never got sick, healed any sickness anyone else had, and gave the power to heal to his followers. Saint Benedict also was in a similar situation as Mohamed, where people were trying to poison him. One of the times he made the glass of poisoned wine shatter by making the sign of the cross. Another time a raven came and took the loaf of poisoned bread. Why couldn't Mohamed, a prophet of "Allah", stop himself from being poisoned?

Mohamed spoke as a baby, apparently. This is the story, but how does that compare to a VIRGIN giving birth? Mohamed had NO miracles. He had some dreams about flying on magic carpets and whatnot, and years after his death his followers wrote down what they felt like being in the Koran. The "prophet" was illiterate. The Koran was written by men, who decided which parts to include just the same way the Bible was written.

Where did Mohamed get his title as prophet from? Good question! The first Muslim: Khadija!

Khadija was Mohamed's first wife; a very wealthy and influential woman, much older than Mohamed, who supplied goods to travelers and pilgrims to Mecca. She made money from pilgrims visiting Mecca. When Mohamed came to her, telling her that a DEMON was tormenting him in a cave, Khadija had a light-bulb turn-on in her brain... She told Mohamed that he was a prophet, even if Mohamed didn't believe it himself. That's why she's considered the first Muslim; the first "believer"... It was all a setup. She encouraged him to hear these voices from "the angel Gabriel" and molded Mohamed from there; interpreting the voices for him, so that Mecca would become the center of Islam, and she herself would gain even more power & money.

Here's my bias now:

I don't want to get into the spiritual aspects of all this. There may be atheists or deists reading this who shouldn't read the following, but: Khadija was a witch who put Mohamed under a spell. Mohamed became possessed by spirits the same way Voodoo-worshipers in Haiti & Benin become possessed, or the old Greek oracles. I also think Jesus was a Voodoo priest who DID perform miracles unlike Mohamed who had no such training or powers. Look up a man named Clairvius Narcisse, to give an example. Voodoo-worshipers themselves will admit that their religion originally came from the Middle-East, then went through Egypt to Africa, and so on, changing with each movement and influence of locals. The Bible is full of Voodoo stories & symbolism. The Koran has very little symbolic truth, and is, in my opinion, useless. ANY good morality found in Islam is ALSO found in Christianity, so Islam brought nothing new that was good in any way.

reply to post by OldCorp


I hate to disagree, but there are prophets of the old testament who were killers & womanizers, BUT I will say that Mohamed turned Jesus teachings upside down.

Moses: Stone the adulteress!
Jesus: DON'T stone the adulteress!
Mohamed: Stone the adulteress!

Moses: Follow dietary rules!
Jesus: No need to follow dietary rules!
Mohamed: Follow dietary rules!

Moses: An eye for an eye!
Jesus: Turn the other cheek!
Mohamed: An eye for an eye!

I can literally give dozens of examples....

reply to post by OldCorp


Hah so the mahdi is supposed to come with Christ. You know that sounds just like the False Prophet and the Son of Perdition. As far as the Bible is concerned Christ returns to be the sole ruler for 1000 years with his army of saints in tow who will be the judges of men. Yeah i have a real problem with any faith that denies Christ's divinity in that He is really God, so many versus in Isaiah plainly say that he is the Lord (Yahweh).

Behold, that Jesus Christ is the Lord our God:

trumpetcallofgodonline.com...

The Lord of lords, the King of kings is Jesus Christ whom is God in person.

Originally posted by bettermakings
reply to post by OldCorp

 

I hate to disagree, but there are prophets of the old testament who were killers & womanizers,

Because no one is perfect, and every character in the Tanakh has their flaws, and the Tanakh does not shy away from them either.

BUT I will say that Mohamed turned Jesus teachings upside down.

Not really.

Moses: Stone the adulteress!
Jesus: DON'T stone the adulteress!
Mohamed: Stone the adulteress!

Yeshua did not say not to stone her. He said that those who had not done the same sin was free to cast the first stone.

Moses: Follow dietary rules!
Jesus: No need to follow dietary rules!
Mohamed: Follow dietary rules!

Again, Yeshua did not say not to follow the dietary laws. He himself stated that He did not come to abolish the laws, but fulfill them. He said that He has followed all of His Father's commandments. When he was talking about what defiles comes out of the mouth, not in, He was speaking of the ritual hand-washing. Context clues man.

Moses: An eye for an eye!
Jesus: Turn the other cheek!
Mohamed: An eye for an eye!

Yeshua was talking about revenge. Eye for an eye was/is justice. The Israelites had turned the eye for an eye into a means of revenge. He was correcting their error.

I can literally give dozens of examples....

Please do. I enjoy this.

reply to post by bettermakings


I'm speaking more along the lines of kidnapping, rape, murder, messing with little girls, and that type of thing. As far as I'm aware, none of the Biblical prophets were into that, which makes Mohammed the odd man out.