DRAFT JENNA!

Originally posted by Bout Time
I don't get what I'm supposedly being called on: my family & friends are serving without a single complaint, I'm strongly opposed to what I consider a wrong headed and ill timed military action and I'm also pointing out that there is no personal vesting in this war via their own bloodlines by our Congress or this administration.
Call that crap if you want to, you've chosen your side. Americans interested in protecting their loved ones, neighbors and beloved nation from the decay this dime store Napoleon has wrought just don't line up with your perceptions, despite what FOX news is telling you.

You are being called on the fact that the ONLY reason you are against this necessary and long over due action is because your party is not calling the shots. Your outright rage that the Democrats do not hold the presidency is so evident that no one listens to your rantings any more. If Al Gore were in office and took these actions, you would be the biggest cheerleader in the box. However, if Gore were in the drivers seat, he wouldn't have the guts to do anything, and would say that the possibility of killing a tree in Iraq wasn't worth the freedom and liberation of a nation oppressed by a bloodthirsty dictator and his psychotic offspring for the better part of thirty years. By the way, I've been there, and there aren't any trees. Of course, if Clinton had done the right thing and taken out certain terrorist scum when he had the chance, we may not be in this predicament. Unfortunatly, instead of a pair of balls between his legs, he had an intern. Hillary carries his nards in her purse.

If the smiling faces of Iraqi children scampering to meet American and British troops, while their parents do the same, and destroy the plethora of images and statues of their vanquished opressor, aren't enough to make you admit your unsubstantiated claims are wrong, then there truely is no hope for you. But then, I never had any for you in the first place...

Originally posted by Mr. E.
...or they would have applied for concientious objector status.

Not necessarily. Professional soldiers like my family members will go to war even if they do not agree with it. My dad did it in Vietnam. My son's done it. So have others in my family.

There is a 'breaking point' but believe me, not everyone out there in the services likes Bush or approves of his conquest of another country.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
If the smiling faces of Iraqi children scampering to meet American and British troops, while their parents do the same, and destroy the plethora of images and statues of their vanquished opressor, aren't enough to make you admit your unsubstantiated claims are wrong, then there truely is no hope for you. But then, I never had any for you in the first place...

I think it only fair to point out that there are dozens of news reports saying that the Iraqui population has NOT welcomed the coalition forces with open arms and has NOT welcomed them as saviors who are releiving them from a terrible burden.

Indeed, many who went out to claim their dead from battlefields started throwing stones at the coalition soldiers.

We are not seen as liberators -- in many cases we're seen as invaders and the situation there may be far more volatile than in Afghanistan.

Byrd....do you believe the French are Nazis? If not then my "France's Secret War" puts perfectly into perspective, that the way people act does not always reflect the way they really feel.

A lot of the Iraqis not "loving us" are still afraid of the Fedayine or however it is spelt, being the neighbor next door and chopping his poor head off in the night.

When we "invaded" Germany do you think the Germans just opened their arms and said "THANK YOU WE LOVE YOU"

No it took them a couple years to come down off their "high".

And that's going to be the same in Iraq. There is a lot of reason for them still, to not show any emotion at all towards the US//Britt forces.

Yet they still show their support by such actions as that man who ran 18 miles total to get the necissary info to the marines to rescue our POW.

You must keep in mind, of those 12 news sources, all 12 wish America were a 3rd world country.

The winds of Facisim are rising in Europe once more, it begins with the removing of the American Blanket of Freedom.

Originally posted by Byrd

I think it only fair to point out that there are dozens of news reports saying that the Iraqui population has NOT welcomed the coalition forces with open arms and has NOT welcomed them as saviors who are releiving them from a terrible burden.

Indeed, many who went out to claim their dead from battlefields started throwing stones at the coalition soldiers.

We are not seen as liberators -- in many cases we're seen as invaders and the situation there may be far more volatile than in Afghanistan.

The Iraqi (Dis?) Information Minister stood outside of the Palistine Hotel and said that there were "no American infidels inside Bagdad" while the US Army conducted operations 1/4 mile away from him with tanks and armored infantry. He continues to insist that the "Mighty Iraqi Army" is defeating the coalition. Do you believe him? I tend to think not.

While it may be said that there are a small minority of Iraqis who still support Saddam, the Bath party faithful, the vast majority are thrilled that we have come to liberate them, and they DO see us as such. They took their time to decide if we were going to truly stay there and finish the job they wish we had finished in 91. Now that they know we are really here to free them from the clutches of the maniac who has abused, tortured and murdered their loved ones for so many years, they are beginning to come out in droves to welcome and thank us. Read the articles above, and watch the news, other than Al Jazeera. Uprisings in Bagdad where ordinary citizens are chasing down the Fedayeen and killing them...Iraquis praising, hugging and shaking hands with British Marines, even asking for their AUTOGRAPHS! In all my years in the military, that's only happened once to me outside the USA, in a seaside Scottish town where Air Cadets toured my aircraft and asked for my autograph. Look at the pictures and video on the major networks, MSNBC, CNN, BBC and FOXNEWS. A picture is worth a thousand words...

Originally posted by 5POF
Byrd....do you believe the French are Nazis?

No. That's ridiculous.

If not then my "France's Secret War" puts perfectly into perspective, that the way people act does not always reflect the way they really feel.

Hadn't read it, but I'm aware that people don't always act on what they feel.

A lot of the Iraqis not "loving us" are still afraid of the Fedayine or however it is spelt, being the neighbor next door and chopping his poor head off in the night.

When we "invaded" Germany do you think the Germans just opened their arms and said "THANK YOU WE LOVE YOU"

No it took them a couple years to come down off their "high".

And that's going to be the same in Iraq. There is a lot of reason for them still, to not show any emotion at all towards the US//Britt forces.

Exactly my point. And while there are friendlies (and people who are frankly hoping to be power brokers in the new regieme) cozying up to the troops, the rest really aren't and there have been a lot of reports on the people not really being that excited.

There were no floods of refugees escaping to freedom (as there were in Afghanistan.) In the past, when there has been an opportunity to escape as forces entered (Afghanistan), people fled to freedom. They aren't, and that's significant.

These are people who have learned to hide their feelings and go along with whoever's in power. Now they have a foreign invader who tore through their armies and promised a regieme change and that is expressing a strong religious belief and morals contrary to their culture.

They know how to go along with brutal regiems (tell the people in power how lucky they are to have these leaders and suck up to them so you'll get power.) And right now, America's simply a bigger bully who kicked their bully out.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
Look at the pictures and video on the major networks, MSNBC, CNN, BBC and FOXNEWS. A picture is worth a thousand words...

I've been reading Yahoo news, with the news feeds from all the English speaking networks and newspapers. I haven't read Al Jazeera in English or any other language and I haven't actually read the news in other languages.

And that's where I got my information from.

And many of them were saying last week that they had a hard time finding groups of happy, celebrating Iraquis to take pictures with. They are finding them because that's what the editors want to see... but the truth is that most of the Iraquis are staying indoors and away from the military and even when the military helps (as was heard in an interview today), the people just want for them to go away.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
Look at the pictures and video on the major networks, MSNBC, CNN, BBC and FOXNEWS. A picture is worth a thousand words...

I've been reading Yahoo news, with the news feeds from all the English speaking networks and newspapers. I haven't read Al Jazeera in English or any other language and I haven't actually read the news in other languages.

And that's where I got my information from.

And many of them were saying last week that they had a hard time finding groups of happy, celebrating Iraquis to take pictures with. They are finding them because that's what the editors want to see... but the truth is that most of the Iraquis are staying indoors and away from the military and even when the military helps (as was heard in an interview today), the people just want for them to go away.

Key word there is "last week". This week, they are ecstatic, as they know their liberation is at hand. You say "but the truth is that most of the Iraquis are staying indoors and away from the military and even when the military helps (as was heard in an interview today), the people just want for them to go away." Where, praytell, do you get this information? Totally unsubstantiated, as is your comment about "what the editors want to see". Sorry, there is absolutly no proof of that remark what so ever, unless you are psychic as BT must be, based on many of his claims. Please show some substantive proof of your claims...I would love to see it.

And I never said that you were getting your information from Al Jazeera. It was just a suggestion to NOT believe what they say, as they tend to lean heavily towords the Saddam side of things, showing much of his propaganda. They are not trustworthy, and now that one of their reporters has been killed, I believe they will become even more so. My suggestion was to listen to trustworthy sources, and if you noticed, it included both sides of the polital band, from anti-everything BBC to the "fair and balanced" FOX.

Originally posted by 5POF
I think it is several combinations of things BT.

1) You think this war is "bad" when it is really very very good, and there have been several posts here showing how Iraqis LOVE our kicking Saddam's butt. Only the French and other people's whose opinions don't count, are saying for us to stop.

Destabalizing a region that has a fingernail grip on their various societies against FUNDAMENTALIST Clerics is a "Very very good thing"? Other opinions don't count if opposite ours? First, read "Blowback" & then rethink the bully against my bully is my savior mindset.

2) You try to justify your opinions as being correct by having friends and family over there.

No - I justify my opinions with reasoned arguments. Family & freinds are professionals committed to doing a job & following the chain of command. What I argue here has zero bearing on their professionalism.

3) Then you try and say that because it's Congress that makes the policies, their Friends and Family should also be over there.

No, like the video game war hawks present on this board, who think of death as something a 'reset' button away from fixing, a governing body divorced from the sacrafice of the actions they put into motion will always err on the side of unnecessary sacrafice. If we are embarking on an eternal war state mode, they need to sahre the burden or become better diplomats.

While 2 and 3 are small points, with 1, they add up.

But you know, Congress has done their part.

The First Continental Congress only risked being hanged if they lost.

During WW2, hell even future Presidents were fighting there.

What more do you want from them? This is a small war, where the elite army can handle it without the need for Senator Sons.

And you honestly think it will stop with Iraq? Or did you think Afganistan was a stop point too?

Originally posted by Bout Time
I don't get what I'm supposedly being called on: my family & friends are serving without a single complaint, I'm strongly opposed to what I consider a wrong headed and ill timed military action and I'm also pointing out that there is no personal vesting in this war via their own bloodlines by our Congress or this administration.
Call that crap if you want to, you've chosen your side. Americans interested in protecting their loved ones, neighbors and beloved nation from the decay this dime store Napoleon has wrought just don't line up with your perceptions, despite what FOX news is telling you.

Yup, can't listen to Fox. Fox doesn't despise Bush.
Read the garbage you write, B-T. look at your avatar. Your credibility is inversely proportional with the degree of your neurosis. Your whole reason is not to explain why you think that the war is wrong, it is all about your frighteningly intense hatred of the president.

Did you read the thread about homeland security and who was the true author of that idea? Did it cause you to dog-cuss your favorite president, you know, the one you always feel is shinigly superior to this one?

While I like Bush's politicics I don't trust him (he's a politician. Is there any better reason?) This news didn't shock me at all. But I bet when you read that the very concept you attribute to Bush and use it to say Bush is attacking our freedoms is actually a brainchild of Clinton's.....wow.....I bet that caused you some mental agony!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Yup, can't listen to Fox. Fox doesn't despise Bush.
Read the garbage you write, B-T. look at your avatar.
Look at yours!!!! I can see you in your old uniform now, saluting the TV!

Your credibility is inversely proportional with the degree of your neurosis.

Big Ditto!! But are we to take your generic distrust of a politician as being even handed?

Your whole reason is not to explain why you think that the war is wrong, it is all about your frighteningly intense hatred of the president.

I don't know what's more annoying about you: that you claim amnesia on posts and arguments ad infinitum that I posted and debated you on already, or that you try to discredit my facts as presented to date on both the illegitamacy & incompetence of Dim Son, by claiming a hatred on my part that rivals anything remotely close to yours for Clinton. I haven't forgotten that when I first came to these boards that all you ever posted was Clinton bashing heresay. That it has not ceased nearly three years after the fact speaks volumes.


Did you read the thread about homeland security and who was the true author of that idea? Did it cause you to dog-cuss your favorite president, you know, the one you always feel is shinigly superior to this one?

Quantum leap from securing our sea ports & airline cabin doors to implementing detentions of US Citizens-voiding their Miranda rights and letting every tap into our privacy happen without judicial approval, no? Don't even attempt to say these things implemented by Dim Son have made us safer....just nearer to a Fascist State.

While I like Bush's politicics I don't trust him (he's a politician. Is there any better reason?) This news didn't shock me at all. But I bet when you read that the very concept you attribute to Bush and use it to say Bush is attacking our freedoms is actually a brainchild of Clinton's.....wow.....I bet that caused you some mental agony!


None what so ever. Why would it? Theory versus bastardized application should be obvious to even FOX News viewers!

Originally posted by Bout Time

Destabalizing a region that has a fingernail grip on their various societies against FUNDAMENTALIST Clerics is a "Very very good thing"? Other opinions don't count if opposite ours? First, read "Blowback" & then rethink the bully against my bully is my savior mindset.

It's not destabilizing the region. That's the Henney-Penny attutude you portray about everything even remotly connected (and often not connected at all!) with the Bush administration. Freeing people from opression, from a murderous regime, allowing them to finally express their outrage at their mistreatment over the last few decades is destabilization? I think not. Try again.


No - I justify my opinions with reasoned arguments. Family & freinds are professionals committed to doing a job & following the chain of command. What I argue here has zero bearing on their professionalism.

Reasoned arguments? Only in your opinion. Baseless accusations, factless fear mongering, yes. Never a reasoned argument. Try again.


No, like the video game war hawks present on this board, who think of death as something a 'reset' button away from fixing, a governing body divorced from the sacrafice of the actions they put into motion will always err on the side of unnecessary sacrafice. If we are embarking on an eternal war state mode, they need to sahre the burden or become better diplomats.

That's a reasoned argument? "a governing body divorced from the sacrafice of the actions they put into motion"? Just how, praytell, are they divorced from sacrifice? Because they have no son's or daughters directly involved in conflict? What about other family members? What about their own combat expieriences? Many in congress HAVE that expierience. They have extended family members in the conflict. Most of all, they have CONSTITUANTS in the conflict. Do you profess to say that these things have put no wieght on their hearts? BALDERDASH!!! Again, try again...



And you honestly think it will stop with Iraq? Or did you think Afganistan was a stop point too?

So now, by your inference, the united states will roll over what, the rest of South East Asia? All of Asia proper? Just the OPEC nations? How about the whole world!!! Henny-Freakin-Penny. You will be proven wrong again. For the last time, Try again.

Hi
I've got both my brothers now involved in the conflict. Older and younger. I don't know what to think anymore. There's too much violence and sickness in this world just now without another bloody war.
As for the Iraqi people looting ( I contradict myself for an earlier post) I think they should grab as much as they can coz he stole it from them in the first place.
Peace to all that want it.

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
For the last time, Try again.

You're wrong on everything, as usual, but...welcome back.

Originally posted by Bout Time

Originally posted by Affirmative Reaction
For the last time, Try again.

You're wrong on everything, as usual, but...welcome back.

Wow...what an awesome response! Is that one of those "reasoned arguments" you claim to make? Outstanding. What's next, "I know you are, but what am I???" I'll give you credit though. Since YOU had been proven wrong, you kept your retort to something simple, if not mundane.

And I never left...just refused to post for a while. From the looks of the posters and the Gestapo attitude here, I probably won't be around much longer, though. So you'll probably have back your platform for unsubstantiated "facts" and out and out lies very soon, without someone to point out the inadequacies in the majority of your posts. In the mean time, hope you didn't get too comfortable...