DRAFT JENNA!

Number of children from Members of Congress involved in our dirty little war: 1

Number of people in my family deployed: 4

Number of Freinds or their kids deployed: 8

Number of family members of draft age: 11

A member of the firm I'm on project at lost his son already, and I'm interested to learn about other board members, regardless of country, who also have loved ones currently in harms way, or are set to be there if these misguided war policies continue on the vector they're on.

I think the united nation should set up a ring where world leaders can settle their disputes. just put the members of congress supporting the war and bush's administration against Saddam and his cabinet. They should fight it out with paintball guns and the losers would be kicked onto the streets to live like winos and homelss people for a month. You would see a real decrease in wars that way.

XAOS

Number of people in the military drafted against their will--- ZERO!

"Dirty" little war? What's the matter? You prefer the enemy's "Dirty Little War" be fought soley on our soil? You know, so that non-combatants can be purposely targeted?

Cry me a river, B-T. Our war is neither little or dirty, there are just some anti-Bush politics hiding in most of the anti-war messages.

BT, grow up. This is war is a just war to liberate people under the ironfist of a madman for over 20 years. There has been no draft and I doubt there will be. I guess it is fine for Saaddam to tortue his own pioeple then.

B-T You only besmirch your friend's honor by using them as an example of why the war is "wrong" or such.

I can now honestly say, I care less about your dead friend or who the hell ever he was...he was 1 of only some 15, and you had to go and ruin his sacrifice.

Shame on you.

If the military weren't so picky, I'd be over there.

But when I had the chance to join up years ago, I was too young, those buttheads. 17 isn't THAT old, I should blame my parents rather.

But going down the college path was the smarter choice, and now there's no point in joining up, not unless Nazism resurfaces in Germany.

Which I wouldn't mind, the world needs to know that France//Germany//China//Russia, have done no good in the past 50 years, and before...America has done all the good.

Using the dead as a 'backyard' example ( who were killed needlessly in support of a foreign policy bent on domestic plutocracy ) is besmirching?
Boy, I don't know what physical or mental limitation kept you out of serving, but please know full well that we'd all be better off with you instead in their place.

Thomas
Dirty war? Definitely. Little? You're right....how can something designed to control the largest & best water supply in that part of the world, as well as the world's secondest largest oil reserve, be considered 'little'?

Jedi

You really do buy into the whole ' save Iraq from the dark-side of the force' BS, don't you?
No one is in favor of Saddam, just in have a secure America & secure Americans abroad......both of which are put into supreme peril under Dim Son.

Thomas
All my politics are Anti-Bush, nothing lurking behind the message....it's part & parcel of the message. I can't see how the two can be seperated; he & his policies are the root cause of ALL OUR ILLS!

I'll satisfy the curiousity posed by your question....

I have 2 uncles, 8 friends (2 of which are close friends), and 3 cousins currently in that theatre...as well as another cousin in Afghanistan. It's a pretty broad gambit, with almost each branch of service represented...majority are marines though...

Originally posted by Gazrok
I'll satisfy the curiousity posed by your question....

I have 2 uncles, 8 friends (2 of which are close friends), and 3 cousins currently in that theatre...as well as another cousin in Afghanistan. It's a pretty broad gambit, with almost each branch of service represented...majority are marines though...

Just for everone elses clarity, Gazrok is that shade of gray that the Right Wing refuses to acknowledge....Pro Iraqi War/Anti-Bush.
Between you and I , two members of this board, we count 25 people actively in harms way. Amazing.

I am ALL for drafting Bush's twin daughters (instead of letting them romp around boozing and doing other things). In fact, I'm all for recalling Bush to military service so he could honorably serve (if you'll recall, he was almost never at his post and then he got "excused" for several years to run a senator's reelection campaign.)

Yes, the war hits home. A friend's nephew was one of the first Marines to die.) My son is Navy, another "Son" is Army, my nephew is Army, my brother is Army (all active), cousins-by-marriage are in the Marines, Navy, Air Force. My dad's retired Army and my mom's ex-Navy. A good friend is an Army major who's currently out there getting shot at.

I support the soldiers. I do not support this war, and frankly I think that Bush's out-of-control, rude little daughters ought to go serve like the rest of us.

(okay... make my tally of military folks about 17. Since we're counting friends, I have some soldiers that I've "adopted" (courtesy of my friend the major)... sending books and other stuff.)

that as a former military brat myself, it stands to reason that the military features prominently with relatives' and friends' career choices...

I'm with you on the packages Byrd....in addition to putting together some shoeboxes for my own friends and family (which is tough when they're all in different branches and spread out), over the weekend, I donated some purchases to a collection point at our local Wal-Mart superstore... Can't say it enough, and it's one of the oddest things on the list, but MOIST TOWELETTES.... They can't use their drinking water for washing, and have to be carefull with the water supply, bathing in rivers, etc.

AS I've said, you are so mentally ill, so full of hate for anything that has anything to do with this administration that your threads are not even worth reading. You are the most hate-filled, biased, out of touch with reality person I know, other than James Carville. At least he gets paid for it and is funny. You, you just allow your hate for Bush to lead you down any old ally of lies, allegations and baseless theories all because they are bad words aimed at Bush.

You need psychological help. Or an exorcist. Or both.

Originally posted by Bout Time
Jedi

You really do buy into the whole ' save Iraq from the dark-side of the force' BS, don't you?
No one is in favor of Saddam, just in have a secure America & secure Americans abroad......both of which are put into supreme peril under Dim Son.

Thomas
All my politics are Anti-Bush, nothing lurking behind the message....it's part & parcel of the message. I can't see how the two can be seperated; he & his policies are the root cause of ALL OUR ILLS!

It's been a long time since I posted here, and since I will no doubt be banned after this post, it will be my last. Frankly, the quality of posting on the board has deteriorated to very boring levels as of late, so it is no great loss to me. However, I can't keep quiet after reading BT's diatribe here. Not a very impressive count, BT. I have literally thousands of friends deployed, and have done so myself in every conflict for the past 18 years, including YOUR president's. Remember Bosnia? How about Kosovo? I remember them, as I was there. Recent surgery keeps me out of this one, but I am there in spirit with my comrads in arms...

Well, as you continue your usual clap trap, the spreading of lies, and the use of "smoke and mirrors", of course, without ANY proof of anything you say, I figured some may want to get it right from the horses mouth, ie, two people who went to Iraq to act as "human shields", and came home with a whole new insight on the Iraqi situation. They are both trying to cope with being so utterly wrong, and apologise for being so nieve. Decide for yourself. I will post both articles seperatly, as they are fairly long. First one...


ASSYRIAN
CHRISTIANS.COM

I Was Wrong!
By Ken Joseph, Jr.
Amman, Jordan



How do you admit you were wrong? What do you do when you realize those you were defending in fact did not want your defense and wanted something completely different from you and from the world?

This is my story. It will probably upset everybody - those with whom I have fought for peace all my life and those for whom the decision for war comes a bit too fast.

I am an Assyrian. I was born and raised in Japan where I am the second generation in ministry after my Father came to Japan in answer to General Douglas Macarthur's call for 10,000 young people to help rebuild Japan following the war.

As a minister and due to my personal convictions I have always been against war for any and all reasons. It was precisely this moral conviction that led me to do all I could to stop the current war in Iraq.

From participating in demonstrations against the war in Japan to strongly opposing it on my radio program, on television and in regular columns I did my best to stand against what I thought to be an unjust war against an innocent people - in fact my people.

As an Assyrian I was told the story of our people from a young age. How my grandparents had escaped the great Assyrian Holocaust in 1917 settling finally in Chicago.

Currently there are approximately six million Assyrians - approximately 1.2 million in Iraq and the rest scattered in the Assyrian Diaspora across the world.

Without a country and rights even in our native land it has been the prayer of generations that the Assyrian Nation will one day be restored and the people of the once great Assyrian Empire will once again be home.

HOME AT LAST

It was with that feeling, together with supplies for our Church and family that I went to Iraq to do all I could to help make a difference.

The feeling as I crossed the border was exhilarating - `home at last, I hought, as I would for the first time visit the land of my forefathers.

The kindness of the border guards when they learned I was Assyrian, the taxi, the people on the street it was like being back `home` after a long absence.

Now I finally know myself! The laid back, relaxed atmosphere, the kindness to strangers, the food, the smells, the language all seemed to trigger a long lost memory somewhere in my deepest DNA.

The first order of business was to attend Church. It was here where my morals were raked over the coals and I was first forced to examine them in the harsh light of reality.

Following a beautiful `Peace` to welcome the Peace Activists in which even the children participated, we moved to the next room to have a simple meal.

`What in the world do you mean?` I asked.

`How could you not want peace?` `We don't want peace. We want the war to come.`

Sitting next to me was an older man who carefully began to sound me out. Apparently feeling the freedom to talk in the midst of the mingling crowd he suddenly turned to me and said `There is something you should know.` `What` I asked surprised at the sudden comment.

`We didn't want to be here tonight`. he continued. `When the Priest asked us to gather for a Peace Service we said we didn't want to come`. He said.

`What do you mean` I inquired, confused. `We didn't want to come because we don't want peace` he replied.

`What in the world do you mean?` I asked. `How could you not want peace?` `We don't want peace. We want the war to come` he continued.

What in the world are you talking about? I blurted back.

That was the beginning of a strange odyssey that deeply shattered my convictions and moral base but at the same time gave me hope for my people and, in fact, hope for the world.

THE STRANGE ODYSSEY BEGINS

Beginning that night and continuing on in the private homes of relatives with whom I stayed little by little the scales began to come off my eyes.

I had not realized it but began to realize that all foreigners in Iraq are subject to 24 hour surveillance by government `minders` who arrange all interviews, visits and contact with ordinary Iraqis. Through some fluke either by my invitation as a religious person and or my family connection I was not subject to any government `minders` at any time throughout my stay in Iraq.

As far as I can tell I was the only person including the media, Human Shields and others in Iraq without a Government `minder` there to guard.

What emerged was something so awful that it is difficult even now to write about it. Discussing with the head of our tribe what I should do as I wanted to stay in Baghdad with our people during their time of trial I was told that I could most help the Assyrian cause by going out and telling the story to the outside world.

Simply put, those living in Iraq, the common, regular people are in a living nightmare. From the terror that would come across the faces of my family at a unknown visitor, telephone call, knock at the door I began to realize the horror they lived with every day.

Over and over I questioned them `Why could you want war? Why could any human being desire war?` They're answer was quiet and measured. `Look at our lives!`We are living like animals. No food, no car, no telephone, no job and most of all no hope.`

I would marvel as my family went around their daily routine as normal as could be. Baghdad was completely serene without even a hint of war. Father would get up, have his breakfast and go off to work. The children to school, the old people - ten in the household to their daily chores.

`You can not imagine what it is to live with war for 20, 30 years. We have to keep up our routine or we would lose our minds`

Then I began to see around me those seemingly in every household who had lost their minds. It seemed in every household there was one or more people who in any other society would be in a Mental Hospital and the ever present picture of a family member killed in one of the many wars.

Having been born and raised in Japan where in spite of 50 years of democracy still retains vestiges of the 400 year old police state I quickly began to catch the subtle nuances of a full blown, modern police state.

I wept with family members as I shared their pain and with great difficulty and deep soul searching began little by little to understand their desire for war to finally rid them of the nightmare they were living in.

The terrible price paid in simple, down to earth ways - the family member with a son who just screams all the time, the family member who lost his wife who left unable to cope anymore, the family member going to a daily job with nothing to do, the family member with a son lost to the war, a husband lost to alcoholism the daily, difficult to perceive slow death of people for whom all hope is lost.

The pictures of Sadaam Hussein whom people hailed in the beginning with great hope everywhere. Sadaam Hussein with his hand outstretched. Sadaam Hussein firing his rifle. Sadaam Hussein in his Arab Headdress. Sadaam Hussein in his classic 30 year old picture - one or more of these four pictures seemed to be everywhere on walls, in the middle of the road, in homes, as statues - he was everywhere!

All seeing, all knowing, all encompassing.

`Life is hell. We have no hope. But everything will be ok once the war is over.` The bizarre desire for a war that would rid them of the hopelessness was at best hard to understand.

`Look at it this way. No matter how bad it is we will not all die. We have hoped for some other way but nothing has worked. 12 years ago it went almost all the way but failed. We cannot wait anymore. We want the war and we want it now`


Coming back to family members and telling them of progress in the talks at the United Nations on working some sort of compromise with Iraq I was welcomed not with joy but anger. `No, there is no other way! We want the war! It is the only way he will get out of our lives`

Once again going back to my Japanese roots I began to understand. The stories I had heard from older Japanese of how in a strange way they had welcomed the sight of the bombers in the skies over Japan.
I had been demonstrating against the war thinking I had been doing it for the very people I was here with now and yet I had not ever bothered to ask them what they wanted.


Of course nobody wanted to be bombed but the first sight of the American B29 Bombers signaled to them that the war was coming to an end. An end was in sight. There would be terrible destruction. They might very well die but finally in a tragic way there was finally hope.

Then I began to feel so terrible. Here I had been demonstrating against the war thinking I had been doing it for the very people I was here now with and yet I had not ever bothered to ask them what they wanted. What they wanted me to do.

It was clear now what I should do. I began to talk to the so called `human shields`. Have you asked the people here what they want? Have you talked to regular people, away from your `minder` and asked them what they want?

I was shocked at the response. `We don't need to do that. We know what they want.` was the usual reply before a minder stepped up to check who I was.

With tears streaming down my face in my bed in a tiny house in Baghdad crowded in with 10 other of my own flesh and blood, all exhausted after another day of not living but existing without hope, exhausted in daily struggle simply to not die I had to say to myself `I was wrong`.

How dare I claim to speak for those for whom I had never asked what they wanted!

ALL I COULD DO

Then I began a strange journey to do all I could while I could still remain to as asked by our tribe let the world know of the true situation in Iraq.

Carefully and with great risk, not just for me but most of all for those who told their story and opened up their homes for the camera I did my best to tape their plight as honestly and simply as I could. Whether I could get that precious tape out of the country was a different story.

What I was not prepared for was the sheer terror they felt at speaking out.
Wanting to make sure I was not simply getting the feelings of a long oppressed minority - the Assyrians - I spoke to dozens of people. What I was not prepared for was the sheer terror they felt at speaking out.

Over and over again I would be told `We would be killed for speaking like this` and finding out that they would only speak in a private home or where they were absolutely sure through the introduction of another Iraqi that I was not being attended by a minder.


From a former member of the Army to a person working with the police to taxi drivers to store owners to mothers to government officials without exception when allowed to speak freely the message was the same - `Please bring on the war. We are ready. We have suffered long enough. We may lose our lives but some of us will survive and for our children's sake please, please end our misery.

On the final day for the first time I saw the signs of war. For the first time sandbags began appearing at various government buildings but the solders putting them up and then later standing within the small circle they created gave a clear message they could not dare speak.

They hated it. They despised it. It was their job and they made clear in the way they worked to the common people watching that they were on their side and would not fight.

Near the end of my time a family member brought the word that guns had just been provided to the members of the Baath Party and for the first time we saw the small but growing signs of war.

But what of their feelings towards the United States and Britain? Those feelings are clearly mixed. They have no love for the British or the Americans but they trust them.

`We are not afraid of the American bombing. They will bomb carefully and not purposely target the people. What we are afraid of is Saddam Hussein and what he and the Baath Party will do when the war begins. But even then we want the war. It is the only way to escape our hell. Please tell them to hurry. We have been through war so many times,but this time it will give us hope`.

AT THE BORDER ... A FINAL CALL FOR HELP

The final call for help came at the most unexpected place - the border. Sadly, and sent off by the crying members of my family I left. Things were changing by the hour - the normally $100 ride from Baghdad to Amman was first $300 then $500 and by nightfall $1,000.

As we came to the border we began the routine paperwork and then the search of our vehicle. Everything was going well until suddenly the border guard asked if I had any money. We had been carefully instructed to make sure we only carried $300 when we returned so I began to open up the pouch that carried my passport and money stuffed in my shorts.

Suddenly the guard began to pat me down. `Oh, no`! I thought. It`s all over`. We had been told of what happened if you got caught with videotape, a cellular telephone or any kind of electronic equipment that had not been declared.

A trip back to Baghdad, a likely appearance before a judge, in some cases 24-48 hour holding and more.

He immediately found the first videotape stuffed in my pocket and took it out. I could see the expression of terror on the driver as he stifled a scream.

The guard shook his head as he reached into my pocket and took out another tape and then from pocket after pocket began to take out tape after tape, cellular telephone, computer camera - all the wrong things.

We all stood there in sheer terror - for a brief moment experiencing the feeling that beginning with my precious family members every Iraqi feels not for a moment but day and night, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. That terrible feeling that your life is not yours that its fate rests in someone else's hands that simply by the whim of the moment they can determine.


For one born free a terrifying feeling if but for an instant.

As the guard slowly laid out the precious video tape on the desk we all waited in silent terror for the word to be taken back to Baghdad and the beginning of the nightmare.
He didn't have to say a word. I had learned the language of the imprisoned Iraqi.


Suddenly he laid the last videotape down and looked up. His face is frozen in my memory but it was to me the look of sadness, anger and then a final look of quiet satisfaction as he clinically shook his head and quietly without a word handed all the precious videotape - the cry of those without a voice - to me.

He didn't have to say a word. I had learned the language of the imprisoned Iraqi. Forbidden to speak by sheer terror they used the one language they had left - human kindness.

As his hands slowly moved to give the tape over he said in his own way what my Uncle had said, what the taxi driver had said, what the broken old man had said, what the man in the restaurant had said, what the Army man had said, what the man working for the police had said, what the old woman had said, what the young girl had said - he said it for them in the one last message a I crossed the border from tyranny to freedom . . .

Please take these tapes and show them to the world. Please help us . . . . and please hurry!



Ken Joseph Jr. is an Assyrian, a minister and was born, raised and resides in Japan where he directs AssyrianChristians.com, the Japan Helpline and the Keikyo Institute.

HOME




[Edited on 8-4-2003 by Affirmative Reaction]

And here is number two......



I was a naive fool to be a human shield for Saddam
By Daniel Pepper
(Filed: 23/03/2003)


I wanted to join the human shields in Baghdad because it was direct action which had a chance of bringing the anti-war movement to the forefront of world attention. It was inspiring: the human shield volunteers were making a sacrifice for their political views - much more of a personal investment than going to a demonstration in Washington or London. It was simple - you get on the bus and you represent yourself.

So that is exactly what I did on the morning of Saturday, January 25. I am a 23-year-old Jewish-American photographer living in Islington, north London. I had travelled in the Middle East before: as a student, I went to the Palestinian West Bank during the intifada. I also went to Afghanistan as a photographer for Newsweek.

The human shields appealed to my anti-war stance, but by the time I had left Baghdad five weeks later my views had changed drastically. I wouldn't say that I was exactly pro-war - no, I am ambivalent - but I have a strong desire to see Saddam removed.

We on the bus felt that we were sympathetic to the views of the Iraqi civilians, even though we didn't actually know any. The group was less interested in standing up for their rights than protesting against the US and UK governments.

I was shocked when I first met a pro-war Iraqi in Baghdad - a taxi driver taking me back to my hotel late at night. I explained that I was American and said, as we shields always did, "Bush bad, war bad, Iraq good". He looked at me with an expression of incredulity.

As he realised I was serious, he slowed down and started to speak in broken English about the evils of Saddam's regime. Until then I had only heard the President spoken of with respect, but now this guy was telling me how all of Iraq's oil money went into Saddam's pocket and that if you opposed him politically he would kill your whole family.

It scared the hell out of me. First I was thinking that maybe it was the secret police trying to trick me but later I got the impression that he wanted me to help him escape. I felt so bad. I told him: "Listen, I am just a schmuck from the United States, I am not with the UN, I'm not with the CIA - I just can't help you."

Of course I had read reports that Iraqis hated Saddam Hussein, but this was the real thing. Someone had explained it to me face to face. I told a few journalists who I knew. They said that this sort of thing often happened - spontaneous, emotional, and secretive outbursts imploring visitors to free them from Saddam's tyrannical Iraq.

I became increasingly concerned about the way the Iraqi regime was restricting the movement of the shields, so a few days later I left Baghdad for Jordan by taxi with five others. Once over the border we felt comfortable enough to ask our driver what he felt about the regime and the threat of an aerial bombardment.

"Don't you listen to Powell on Voice of America radio?" he said. "Of course the Americans don't want to bomb civilians. They want to bomb government and Saddam's palaces. We want America to bomb Saddam."

We just sat, listening, our mouths open wide. Jake, one of the others, just kept saying, "Oh my God" as the driver described the horrors of the regime. Jake was so shocked at how naive he had been. We all were. It hadn't occurred to anyone that the Iraqis might actually be pro-war.

The driver's most emphatic statement was: "All Iraqi people want this war." He seemed convinced that civilian casualties would be small; he had such enormous faith in the American war machine to follow through on its promises. Certainly more faith than any of us had.

Perhaps the most crushing thing we learned was that most ordinary Iraqis thought Saddam Hussein had paid us to come to protest in Iraq. Although we explained that this was categorically not the case, I don't think he believed us. Later he asked me: "Really, how much did Saddam pay you to come?"

It hit me on visceral and emotional levels: this was a real portrayal of Iraq life. After the first conversation, I completely rethought my view of the Iraqi situation. My understanding changed on intellectual, emotional, psychological levels. I remembered the experience of seeing Saddam's egomaniacal portraits everywhere for the past two weeks and tried to place myself in the shoes of someone who had been subjected to seeing them every day for the last 20 or so years.

Last Thursday night I went to photograph the anti-war rally in Parliament Square. Thousands of people were shouting "No war" but without thinking about the implications for Iraqis. Some of them were drinking, dancing to Samba music and sparring with the police. It was as if the protesters were talking about a different country where the ruling government is perfectly acceptable. It really upset me.

Anyone with half a brain must see that Saddam has to be taken out. It is extraordinarily ironic that the anti-war protesters are marching to defend a government which stops its people exercising that freedom.

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Wow...imagine that...actual words from someone who was there and knows what they are talking about...try it sometime, BT...you might finally gain some credibility...but I doubt it...

I have a Dad who's deployed over in the region right now, not to mention his friends I know, my friends parents, and my friends. Hell, I'd be over their right now if it wasn't for college. Those are my friends and family, and I feel bad that I can't be right there next to them.

*EDIT*

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought he was referring to Jenna Jameson. I had no idea why anyone would wanna draft her..... God I'm a moron.

[Edited on 4-7-2003 by AF1]

I don't get what I'm supposedly being called on: my family & friends are serving without a single complaint, I'm strongly opposed to what I consider a wrong headed and ill timed military action and I'm also pointing out that there is no personal vesting in this war via their own bloodlines by our Congress or this administration.
Call that crap if you want to, you've chosen your side. Americans interested in protecting their loved ones, neighbors and beloved nation from the decay this dime store Napoleon has wrought just don't line up with your perceptions, despite what FOX news is telling you.

...or they would have applied for concientious objector status. Thank them for not being ignorant as to the fact that sometimes you have to fight an evil, even if you are mocked, unapreciated, called an imperialist and your ultimite sacrifice is derided by those who consider themselves "close" to you. Thank them for protecting what is right, especially in the face of the BT's of the world.

May God be with them at this time, and know that a few of us still appreiciate their service.

I think it is several combinations of things BT.

1) You think this war is "bad" when it is really very very good, and there have been several posts here showing how Iraqis LOVE our kicking Saddam's butt. Only the French and other people's whose opinions don't count, are saying for us to stop.

2) You try to justify your opinions as being correct by having friends and family over there.

3) Then you try and say that because it's Congress that makes the policies, their Friends and Family should also be over there.

While 2 and 3 are small points, with 1, they add up.

But you know, Congress has done their part.

The First Continental Congress only risked being hanged if they lost.

During WW2, hell even future Presidents were fighting there.

What more do you want from them? This is a small war, where the elite army can handle it without the need for Senator Sons.

Originally posted by AF1
I have a Dad who's deployed over in the region right now, not to mention his friends I know, my friends parents, and my friends. Hell, I'd be over their right now if it wasn't for college. Those are my friends and family, and I feel bad that I can't be right there next to them.

*EDIT*

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought he was referring to Jenna Jameson. I had no idea why anyone would wanna draft her..... God I'm a moron.

[Edited on 4-7-2003 by AF1]

Yo were thinkin porn and I was thinkin sitcom (Jenna Elfman)....we are a little pathetic