Football Players Penalized for pointing towards Heaven.

reply to post by redoubt


I agree with you, but the fact is they've chosen to establish a rule governing celebration behavior. Such a rule is always going to be up to the interpretation of the official on the field and hence always open to criticism.

These were kids, it was a high school game, and there is often an emphasis on sportsmanship at that level.

The official (who probably knew nothing of this backstory that we all do) made a judgement call. It's really as simple as that.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
Far out ..don't try twist this into a thing about atheism... its about GRANDSTANDING during a TEAM sport and it shows they didn't ok it with their own coach or the referee's before hand etc.

I know what it is. I mean I do understand the grandstanding rule.

However - - - A grandparent of a Louisville player was among the fans who believe officials should have made an exception under the circumstances.

It was just "a simple gesture to Heaven," Ann Miller said.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many agree with this grandparent - - because it was "a simple gesture to Heaven" - - that it should be an exception because of God.

So - - - would this grandparent believe it should be an exception if it was a gesture to Atheism?

IMO - - It is appropriate for me to present this argument of believe vs non-belief. This grandparent would not have the same belief of exception if an Atheist symbol was presented.

Rules are black and white. The rule of grandstanding is clear - - and supports the decision. It is a correct decision.

Thinking there should be exception because of an emotional belief is not correct.

Neither would emotional opposition to non-belief be correct.

This situation applies to larger scale.

reply to post by Annee


Explanation: Very Correct!

Personal Disclosure: If we are not going to uphold the least of the laws then the most important laws also become susceptable to corruption!

If these kids had simply said "Hey coach .. xyz died a few days back .. we asked around the team after checking with the team captain who agreed to be with us when we asked if we could wear some black armbands... and the team said they had no problems ... we are also hoping we may be able to make a small quick token gesture say pointing to the sky ... but we know thats going to push the rules so we aren't betting on it ... but we can pray etc." and I as the Coach would been quick smart over to the other Coach and the referee and asking can my players do this?

I would hope a reasonable opposition coach and referee would be kind and reasonable in this case.

I'd then make sure the fans knew why 2 of my players were breaking protocol so this kind of crap doesn't happen.

As a coach ... if these were my team players who did this very minor indiscretion of a non core game rule. I would bloody make them do the teams washing for a month!



Edited to Clarify.. I am NOT this teams coach..and I haven't coached any teams ..ever..any where! I am not an expert. But Far out! Does no one have a clue any more???

reply to post by Annee

because it was "a simple gesture to Heaven" - - that it should be an exception because of God.

Maybe some people think it should be an exception "because of God." BUT, I think the majority think it should be an exception because it was "a simple gesture."

By definition "a simple gesture" is not "grandstanding."

The official was wrong to throw the penalty flag. Grandstanding is something entirely different. It is overt, and/or extended, and it is meant to draw attention to one's self. "A simple gesture" is none of those things.

The official was wrong.

I think the religious can be ridiculous quite often. Well, so can the non-religious. This is asinine. Everything has an agenda behind it. At what point will it be illegal to where a necklace with a cross on it, or earings with crosses on them? Don't want to offend anyone now do we?

So now the greedy, selfish, egotistical generation which is bankrupting this country, also apparently have some of the thinnest skin possible. They lie, cheat and steal, and then turn around and get offended because a student athlete pointed towards god?

Toughen up and go enjoy the retirement plans and pensions your generation will enjoy, and mine won't! Hopefully none of your friends points to the sky and thanks god after a hole in one on your next mid day golf outing.

This all amounts to religious persecution because it's in vogue to bash Christians these days. A simple, quick finger point skyward is such a trivial thing for everyone to get their knickers all twisted about. What if a Muslim wanted to wear his Taqiyah (or Kufi) while playing football or if a Jewish player wore a Kippah (or Yarmulke) while playing. Granted, I do not truly understand when or where these caps are worn - and I'm not trying to be insulting with my lack of understanding of these items - but so what if they wore them. So what if a Wiccan flashed a pentacle as a tribute to the 5 elements. So what if an atheist flashes the "A" symbol for his atheism...so what? I am personally not so fragile and high strung that if some person celebrating a touchdown took one frakken second to celebrate with whatever religious or anti-religious symbol he or she wanted to that I would get all offended by it.

For crap sake, those of you who want to prevent one little second of whatever religious or non religious celebration a person does for scoring - you are just as intolerant as you claim the people you persecute are. What a steaming pile of hypocrites you are.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Annee

 

because it was "a simple gesture to Heaven" - - that it should be an exception because of God.

Maybe some people think it should be an exception "because of God." BUT, I think the majority think it should be an exception because it was "a simple gesture."

As far as I know from watching sports - - pointing to Heaven is considered grandstanding.

I am not the one who defines "simple gesture".

And Please - - let's not be ridiculous and say its not pointing to God.

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
If we are not going to uphold the least of the laws then the most important laws also become susceptable to corruption!

Thank you for that.

Originally posted by MysticPearl
I think the religious can be ridiculous quite often. Well, so can the non-religious. This is asinine. Everything has an agenda behind it. At what point will it be illegal to where a necklace with a cross on it, or earings with crosses on them? Don't want to offend anyone now do we?

There are already some public schools that do not allow any visible signs of personal belief.

I fully support that.

Originally posted by MysticPearl
Toughen up and go enjoy the retirement plans and pensions your generation will enjoy, and mine won't! Hopefully none of your friends points to the sky and thanks god after a hole in one on your next mid day golf outing.

There is a reason wars are fought on the backs of youth.

reply to post by Annee


Actually it is not "pointing to God." The majority of the athletes that I have seen do this, usually tap their chest twice and then point to "Heaven" in remembrance of a dead father, or brother, or grandmother, etc.

A great many athletes actually kneel and pray, and I agreed with you earlier, I think that is a little tacky, but I don't think there should be a specific rule against it.

Think about this, if we rule out all religious symbology, aren't we catering to the one remaining religious preference of atheism? It seems that would be preferential religious treatment would it not?

I am all for the rules against "grandstanding," and I will continue to dislike overt celebrations, or planned celebrations, but I will also continue to enjoy the heartfelt, spontaneous gestures, whether they are religious or not.

And, from your earlier post that I missed, I do not think anybody would be angry about a player asserting their atheism or giving glory to allah or any other religion. There is a running joke about the practice of Santeria in baseball. There is the "Zen Master" in Phil Jackson in basketball, there are Scientologists in Golf and other sports. I'm sorry, but I think atheists are just generally overly sensitive and they expect people to take offense, but in reality, nobody cares all that much. In fact, I think atheists are often disappointed that they don't grab the attention they would expect.

Originally posted by tallcool1
So what if an atheist flashes the "A" symbol for his atheism...so what? I am personally not so fragile and high strung that if some person celebrating a touchdown took one frakken second to celebrate with whatever religious or anti-religious symbol he or she wanted to that I would get all offended by it.

Oh - - I would love to see that day.

The day an Atheist promotes his views in the public sports arena.

I'm sure tolerance will abound

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Annee

 

Actually it is not "pointing to God." The majority of the athletes that I have seen do this, usually tap their chest twice and then point to "Heaven" in remembrance of a dead father, or brother, or grandmother, etc.

Heaven without God.

Oh - OK

reply to post by Annee


List of Atheists in Sports

It doesn't seem to have hurt the popularity of these folks

Lance Armstrong -- everyone knows Lance
Dan Fouts -- extremely popular quarterback, hall of famer, and announcer
Bruce Lee
Robert Smith -- another football player and announcer
Matthew Syed -- Tennis
Pat Tillman -- AMERICAN HERO!! Gave up a football career to serve his Special Forces Unit in Afghanistan and was killed by friendly fire. The truest American Hero of this generation.

Being an Atheist does not make someone unpopular. Being a sensitive Nancy and expecting a lot of attention for one's "alternative" views does make them unpopular.

Looking outside of sports, we see that there are plenty more popular atheists, and they are enjoyed by religious and non-religious folks alike.

George Carlin
Adam Carolla
Janeane Garofalo
Ricky Gervais
Kathy Griffin
Warren Buffett (which means he is also NOT a Mason or Illuminati,

)
Larry Flynt

I wanted to put up a list of Satanists or other alternative religions, but there are so many crazy conspiracy posts when I google that search, that it wasn't worthwhile, but they do exist.

One of my favorite things about sports in general is the fact that you can be judged on your merits alone. You don't have to be pretty, and you don't have to be the right religion or race, you just have to be good at your sport and dedicated to your teammates. Sports is a sanctuary from the rest of the crazy world. We need to quit trying to screw it up!

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MysticPearl
I think the religious can be ridiculous quite often. Well, so can the non-religious. This is asinine. Everything has an agenda behind it. At what point will it be illegal to where a necklace with a cross on it, or earings with crosses on them? Don't want to offend anyone now do we?

There are already some public schools that do not allow any visible signs of personal belief.

I fully support that.

Anything can be a sign of personal belief. Where do you stop? Is it the kids here who are offended, or the parents? I think kids from a poorer family would get more offended at kids who show up to high school in their brand new 50K mercedes daddy bought them. The personal belief that "I'm better than you, and so are my kids, so we'll flaunt our money how we please", is more offensive is schools than pointing to god during an athletic celebration or wearing a necklace with a cross.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I'm sorry, but I think atheists are just generally overly sensitive and they expect people to take offense, but in reality, nobody cares all that much. In fact, I think atheists are often disappointed that they don't grab the attention they would expect.

Uh huh. I was Christian for about 60 years.

An admitted Atheist for the last 5.

I'd say - I probably have a better understanding then you do.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by tallcool1
So what if an atheist flashes the "A" symbol for his atheism...so what? I am personally not so fragile and high strung that if some person celebrating a touchdown took one frakken second to celebrate with whatever religious or anti-religious symbol he or she wanted to that I would get all offended by it.

Oh - - I would love to see that day.

The day an Atheist promotes his views in the public sports arena.

I'm sure tolerance will abound

So you think not being tolerant of others beliefs(atheists) is a joke, but we should all be concerned about your thin skin, and that someone pointing towards the sky offends you?

Originally posted by MysticPearl

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MysticPearl
I think the religious can be ridiculous quite often. Well, so can the non-religious. This is asinine. Everything has an agenda behind it. At what point will it be illegal to where a necklace with a cross on it, or earings with crosses on them? Don't want to offend anyone now do we?

There are already some public schools that do not allow any visible signs of personal belief.

I fully support that.

Anything can be a sign of personal belief. Where do you stop? Is it the kids here who are offended, or the parents? I think kids from a poorer family would get more offended at kids who show up to high school in their brand new 50K mercedes daddy bought them. The personal belief that "I'm better than you, and so are my kids, so we'll flaunt our money how we please", is more offensive is schools than pointing to god during an athletic celebration or wearing a necklace with a cross.

Topic of discussion: Football Players Penalized for pointing towards Heaven.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MysticPearl

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by MysticPearl
I think the religious can be ridiculous quite often. Well, so can the non-religious. This is asinine. Everything has an agenda behind it. At what point will it be illegal to where a necklace with a cross on it, or earings with crosses on them? Don't want to offend anyone now do we?

There are already some public schools that do not allow any visible signs of personal belief.

I fully support that.

Anything can be a sign of personal belief. Where do you stop? Is it the kids here who are offended, or the parents? I think kids from a poorer family would get more offended at kids who show up to high school in their brand new 50K mercedes daddy bought them. The personal belief that "I'm better than you, and so are my kids, so we'll flaunt our money how we please", is more offensive is schools than pointing to god during an athletic celebration or wearing a necklace with a cross.

Topic of discussion: Football Players Penalized for pointing towards Heaven.

You should remember that before you hijack a thread with all your off topic comments. Way to show you can't counter an argument.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by tallcool1
So what if an atheist flashes the "A" symbol for his atheism...so what? I am personally not so fragile and high strung that if some person celebrating a touchdown took one frakken second to celebrate with whatever religious or anti-religious symbol he or she wanted to that I would get all offended by it.

Oh - - I would love to see that day.

The day an Atheist promotes his views in the public sports arena.

I'm sure tolerance will abound

Unfortunately you are probably right about this. But there are many of us Christians out here who really are not bothered at all by differing beliefs/lack of beliefs/athiest/agnostic/gay/other things that are so called "sinful". We believe that we are all going to the same place in the next life - there's no actual "Hell" in the original languages of the Bible...but that's a different discussion. An atheist flashing an atheism sign or wanting to tell me the "good news" of atheism doesn't bother me in the slightest.