Is it suicide to wish for contact? I think it is

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
You guys are assuming that any aliens would be as violent as us. We don't know what they would be like.

Im not assuming they are going to come as enemies. Just a dangerous indifference. Perhaps i should have made this clear in my OP.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

If any aliens come to our planet, it is reasonable to assume they have evolved passed the need for violence....

What is suicide is NOT looking for more advanced species out there that could help us get over our own issues.

The first statement there is an assumtion. I understand it in a way, but again, i dont believe they will roam the universe looking for people to fight, simply that they will be indifferent to our wants and needs.

As for helping us with our issues. Isnt this a little like a child constantly looking to someone older for guidance and help? Again, if we are to mature and graduate one day to a type 1 civilization or beyond, we need to look within. Not hinge all our hopes and dreams of someone else solving our problems for us. I desperately hope we have it within ourselves to mature and grow as a species.

"If any aliens come to our planet, it is reasonable to assume they have evolved passed the need for violence.... "

the dominant species of the planet ultimately explores deep space and by reaching dominace, they must excel in their naturally violent tendancies..
I think any species travelling the stars would explore with an apex predatory mindset.
but like any feline stalking it's prey, they would observe us, wait for our momentary lapse of judgement and then strike for the kill, if necessary. if they have no reason to strike they won't, they might out of necessity, if need be.

most people forget they are sitting on a planet that's circling a star, and that star is just one of billions in one galaxy in a universe full of galaxies. any freakin thing is possible at any time...the most dominant of all alien races could be on a crash collison course with us right now for all we know.
we could put up a defense i'd say personally but it wouldnt last very long. couple jet battles, a nuke or 2 and that's that.

an alien ground invasion I think would be the worst case scenario. my mind is just running with this lol..

reply to post by nightbringr

Is it suicide to wish for contact?

Like everything else it depends on who, or what you make contact with.

Second line.

I believe that if they wish to make contact, they will do so on their own timing, and terms. We have no reason to believe they will be peaceful, but if you looked at our world from another intelligent beings point of view would you want to come here? and if you did would you trust any of us. We kill each other and ourselves they can just come pick the pieces up later if they wish without intervening and/or wasting any of their own time and resources, sit back and watch the show, So IMO it's more likely if any made contact they would do so to help us from destroying the universe, and them, if we stumble upon the technology to do so.

Originally posted by nightbringr
I can forsee a time during the cold war when two superpowers were opposed, aiming world ending nukes at each other.

This cold war drove innovation in many ways. The goal of military supremacy drove each side to spend massive amounts of money on bigger and better weapons to kill each other with. These inventions often had non-military applications.

If one of those applications provided greater then light travel (im hypothesizing of course), one side would suddenly have the means to reach out to the stars. There is no reason why they would not harness this power and use it. So a base is built on a suitable, far away planet unbeknown to the enemy.

A nuclear war on earth plays out, leaving only the remaining off-earth colony. These people then evolve and venture further out. This is how it could happen. No co-operation required.

The cold war argubly got us people on the moon. I don't think a few persons putting some rocks in a sack and playing golf on a moon really equals expansion. Though we are getting there. We're thinking about conservation, and we're maintaining a larger population than we have previously. This shows we're getting somewhere even just slowly.

[Quote] Secondly, your arguement of evolution not taking place without co-operation falls flat in other ways. All animals on earth, humans included have had to fight for survival. Anything that evolved has either hunted or been hunted. They survived and moved on. Why must aliens have to "unite" to explore the universe? I dont see your point.


Look up game theory. Animals work it out. Many animals know that its best to work together or at least tolerate each other on a day to day basis. Just look at crocodiles with birds picking at their teeth and such like. It just stands to logic. Two species working together, even if only at brief intervals, will advance over another unhelpful species. The little bird gets some food, croc gets clean teeth, their mutual chances of survival have gone up. Even within a species animals know its better to work and gather together for warmth and protection.

Irrigation etc alone shows vast amounts of cooperation amoungst the human race. So does our massive amounts of infrastructure. You see 'the cold war', but ignore the fact that we've come leaps and bounds in the last two hundred years.

An alien species that has begun colonizing the galaxy has managed to clutivate and manage food sources, conserve resources, and used their massive amounts of energy to travel rather than blow each other up. If anything our biggest problem with them might be they may not understand death any more if they haven't had to deal with it for the last 35, 000 years ...

It is remotely possible that some hive mind style intelligence has evolved in some galaxy and they're now sending out space ants to kill everyone ... but generally assimilating or devouring entire words just doesn't bring progress. If they haven't managed to take care of their own planet to begin with, chances are they're probably not going anywhere.

It is clearly not in our best interest.It is unfortunate that a few races of aliens have been sucking our planet dry for resources for a very long time.Nobody in their right mind is currently seeking out aliens.It is time to end this situation and protect our planet.

I find it interesting that you think Steven Hawkins is even a good man, he play's every day with his atom cracker trying to make a black hole and thats ok is it. Do you know what would happen if he did make a black hole,No ! well he dosn't either, so that's why the Alien's who have always been here stop him from doing it.

Have you been looking at it the wrong way.

reply to post by Pinke


All fair. I agree it is better to get along and play nice, but competition does not preclude advancement, in fact i believe it is what drives it.

My cold war scenerio was simply to show you how a species could be at war and yet still make it to the space age. In fact, we did it. I think if you think a little deeper, you might realize that yes, it IS possible for a race to be quite indifferent as to our state of affairs here on earth.

Chimpanzees have been shown to fight one another. Many species of cats kill for pleasure, even when they are not hungry. These animals have all evolved. While i agree it would be easier if we all got along and put 100% of our resources towards advancement instead of killing one another, evolution and advancement is very possible even when we are at war with ourselves.

Im not sure why you think a species with violent tendancies is unable to reach the stars and beyond, i simply do not see that. As a previous poster mentioned, in a way it is violent tendencies that allow growth. In the past, if a tribe was not aggressive and expansionist, they would soon be steamrolled by their neighbour. Valuable resources would be lost to competing tribes. It was in the best interest for the Iroquois to kill the Souix, and vise versa. Now im sure you will say an advanced species will not need to kill a neighbour, but evolution and the drive for survival is what instills these violent tendencies in us.

Pascifism is generally not the way to thrive as a species. I would hazard to say it is downright counterproductive.

It hardly matters now. We went out a "We are HERE" beacon a long time ago. What will be will be.

One would hope (snicker) that the government(s) are preparing against the advent of hostile alien life. Who knows, we do see a lot more odd "alien invasion" and such "tests" lately. Perhaps they are preparing. They should, if they are not. May not be anything to prepare for. May not matter.. we may be the proverbial ant under the magnifying glass. But better to do something than nothing.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
You guys are assuming that any aliens would be as violent as us. We don't know what they would be like.

and hey, if they are violent,we have been preparing by fighting ourselves, for as long as we have been around.

No I for one am assuming that we don't know if they are violent or peaceful and that as far as Im concerned is the point.... we don't know

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
If any aliens come to our planet, it is reasonable to assume they have evolved passed the need for violence....

Why is it reasonable to assume that? and once again as you clearly admit you are 'assuming'....

Originally posted by Pinke
Am not sure why everyone is panicking about it suddenly. What possible gain would an alien race have from destroying us? There's plenty of planet, plenty of resources, and am fairly sure they invented something better than the standard dish washer and easy chef set to rule out basic slavery.

Unless I suppose you one of those persons that believes aliens come from millions of miles away to make us stack rocks on top of one another and draw elaborate patterns in the desert. Those aliens might kill us, but those aliens are kind of silly.

At one time, intercontinental aliens came after traveling vast distances on Unidentified Floating Objects to some parts of the Earth. Despite their clearly superior technology, they were fanatically interested in some weird mineral and aggressive religious indoctrination and were certainly not beyond imposing outright slavery, even though their homeworld didn't have it.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
If any aliens come to our planet, it is reasonable to assume they have evolved passed the need for violence....

By 1300, how many peaceful Mongolians had the typical middle easterner encountered? How many brutal warlike ones?

As a matter of evolution, if they are flying here and we cannot fly there, it is more likely that we meet aggressive colonizing types more than the stay-home-and-play-the-lyre types. It's also likely that at that stage we are not a threat to anybody of this nature off planet. However we could be a useful resource---e.g. recruited into joining their side or their cause instead of those of their rivals or enemies. We might be like some 'banana republic' in the Cold War.

The most critical distinction is whether there is zero, one, or more than one civilization in the galaxy capable of practical interstellar travel. The 'more than one' radically alters the game theory.

Not at all sure why Dr. Hawking believes that a civilization with the technology to travel here in any significant force wouldn't have known about us for quite some time. I understand if he means that we should be careful not to go poking into a hornets nest but I'm not sure how he proposes to hide.

It may be more of a problem to know if an advanced civilization is telling us the truth about "the way it is". And if there are multiple civilizations with differing agendas making a choice would be difficult if our science isn't up to the task of sorting out the truth. Of course then there would be all the hucksters posturing that they have been told great secrets by the aliens and, for the right price, will let the rest of know.

Sometimes the behavior of UFO over time suggests that they are hiding from each other more than avoiding us.

reply to post by nightbringer


when we read human history, the ancients tell us that contact is thousands of years old.

ancient religions, ancients aliens, all the same.

they gave us the ten commandments, we used the interpretation of the knowledge as excuse to kill each other by the millions.

i see the relationship as managing a national park.

they could have wiped us out a long time ago, and sometimes probably came pretty close.

as humans get entertained by watching birds, squirrels, our squabbles and incompetence in governance make me believe they have much patience, while waiting for us to maybe grow up.

look at our dysfunctional governments, criminal banks, out of control war mongers, we are our worst enemy.

the human race is in desperate need of governance, one thing we are utterly incompetent at.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
If any aliens come to our planet, it is reasonable to assume they have evolved passed the need for violence....

How so? The only requirement to them getting here is technology. Many advances in our tech came from military research, and the search for better weaponry. It would follow that advanced tech does not necessarily equate to non-violence.

Let me throw a monkey wrench into this discussion.

You may ready your guns and fire at will when I have made my ideas known.

God made all the heavens and the earth,

I believe the aliens have been with us forever.

Without any doubt in my mind I feel aliens would know if they appeared to most of we humans that we would try our best to destroy them.

If a strange creature appears to me out in my yard and does not seem friendly I may shoot it for fear it is going to harm me.
But, surely the creature will have the power to understand the need to let me know he means me no harm.

I would destroy a human that came on my property if I felt he was there to harm me. No difference in human or alien. If I see danger I respond in kind.

I have been close to an alien craft. I care not if you believe me or not. My daughter and two grandchildren were also with me at the time and saw what I did as well as two state patrol men.

Any intellegent alien knows we are basically a people at war with each other.

If they wanted to eat, farm or otherwise harm us we would be dead.

And how can anyone even play with the notion that other stars and planets don't have valuable assets that could assist the aliens and us.

Open your minds and try to get past yourself.

We are not alone.

Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by BadMagician
I don't thing Stephen Hawking's argument holds true...

To say that morals are purely a human concept is untrue.

Morals are part of a self-aware system of consciousness.

How so? Any proof you can offer to this would be helpful.

I dont believe that to be true. I believe we must be fully self-aware and have an ID and EGO to develop morals. So do prominent psychologist. Granted, that might not mean much, but it makes more sense to me.

I dont believe lions feel guilt for eatting their prey. Veggans however can very much so. I have never heard of a lion starving because it refused to harm another living creature.

I am speaking from experience, so I don't have any links to provide, just contributing to the discussion.

Lions don't look in a mirror and think "Gee I am getting old and fat", they don't have the same level of consciousness that I am talking about.

I think there is a progression or evolution of consciousness. Much like biological evolution.
This biological progression of the creatures of Earth led to different ways of viewing and interacting with their environments.

Humans have varying degrees of consciousness in the world.

Some adhere to strict morals set by someone in charge, some simply drop the concept, and others learn through experience to do what is right. AKA, following their heart.

Some would be these evil barbaric alien invaders that you speak of, much like the Crusaders...

But what of the Buddha or Jesus-like ET entities?
Surely just because these folks come from outside our world doesn't mean they need to be some tribal, barbarian horde.

Love always wins against anything else.

reply to post by nightbringr


Hawking is right, as are you. There's no reason to believe that an alien civilization would share our motivations or our morals. We simply don't know, and under that scenario, the best course of action is to exercise a level of caution in proportion to the potential level of threat.

That said, I think its most likely that any alien civilization we encounter will lean towards hostility to some degree. When space-faring civilizations first appeared in our galaxy (assuming there are any), the distribution between peaceful and hostile civilizations was probably relatively equal. The question, of course, is what happens when the two meet? Looking at the level of technology and level of energy required for interstellar travel...consider also the potential firepower at their disposal. The aggressor would likely win every time.

I suspect that this is a part of the reason why we have not detected any alien civilizations to date. The peaceful ones simply may not be there anymore, and the rest of them aren't dumb enough to broadcast their existence.

Originally posted by BadMagician
Love always wins against anything else.

While that is a beautiful and noble thought, i do not believe it.

I think if we look at history, we see the successful human tribes and civilizations are not the peaceful, kumbaya types, its the aggressive, expansionist ones.

If your neighbour threatens you with war, you best take him seriously and prepare your defences. Those who go that pacifist route will most likely soon be extinct. I would love the world to be as you suggest, but it simply is not true.

I know it's cheesy, but i always, always have that scene in front of my eyes from Independence Day where the religious UFO freaks are up on the roof...well you know what's coming...

Hawkins is right, of course, and i agree that there is a HIGH likelihood that Aliens are hostile.

Look at nature and how species "interact" with each other (means: kill each other)..and look how Man is killing and exploiting other species.

The SAME rule will apply in the universe.

Believing that Aliens will bring peace, chocolate and happiness is incredible, incredible naive.

**

Edit: Pluulluuuhhseeee stop with the "human morals" nonsense, humans dont have morals...in essence we are ultra primitive..we are destroying our own planet and everything which is "different"..even our OWN people.

A civlization which is actually conducting interstellar space travel WILL do this for a reason. You dont conduct space travel "just for fun". The reason they are "visiting other planets" (if they do)..is LIKELY for their own benefit and NOT for the benefit of others.

Is it suicide to wish for contact?

No, it's not....

Although I have seen QUITE A LOT of this kind of talk out of the establishment lately, almost like THEY ARE SCARED of having contact, and want *US* to be scared also.

Kind of makes you think that Contact would be absolutely GREAT for everyone EXCEPT THEM AND THEIR MINIONS, DON'T IT?

Me?

I'm PRO CONTACT all the *WAY*