A Scientific Experiment to test existence of God.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by bogomil

That's your subjective choice, as is your self-contained, self-proving circle-argumentation and your way of presenting it.

Many of us outside this rather small 'bubble' of yours, operate from much bigger and better validated 'bubbles', e.g. science/logic/objectivity, from where we DO ask and test ('bigger' does not include fantasies etc in this context).

But don't fear, very few here (if any) are suggesting to oppress christianity, no matter what 'answers' eventually are found. Non-theists usually only request, that christians take their egalitarian place together with everybody else, independent of faith.

edit on 7-6-2011 by bogomil because: addition and precision

I don't care to buy into your psycho-babble, or your "my bubble is bigger than your bubble" mentality. The science you seem to worship has unspoken assumptions you may never articulate in your own lifetime. I note, BTW, that it is science, for all its self-congratulatory aggrandizement, that has led us all to the brink of annihilation. Ironic, yes?

You "don't buy into my psycho-babble", as I don't buy into bible-psycho-babble.

Furthermore you appear to have a very low opinion on the rational/objective approach from science/logic.

So what do you use to relate with, ..... communication-wise. A blind obedience to rigid doctrines of your choice.

Doctrines everybody have to acknowledge?

PS I'm not a fanatic supporter of technology, but I doubt, if it can be stopped. We just have to learn to live with it, preferably without its destructive options in the hands of fanatics.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by bogomil



I'm not a bible-verse citing expert, far from it. But I'm quite at home on the general subject of ideology.

So riddle me this: Who made a 'deal', including all mankind, on the exclusive doctrine of redemption. And on what authority was this 'deal' made.

I never signed that contract, but I'm daily told, that I am part of it. I don't even believe in the basic situation, which is an embellished fairytale to me, around this deal. If I protest publicly, I'm told, that I'm persecuting somebody's 'right' to constantly trying to convert me.

edit on 8-6-2011 by bogomil because: additional clarification

On His own authority, God created the Plan of Salvation. By this means, He purposed to save/redeem/reconcile the the entire Creation (note carefully here: not just "lost sinners") back into a right relationship with Himself. As the One who created it all, He was the One to do it. You were not required to sign any contract, but even so, you are a party to it as a created being. Your lack of commitment, your lack of belief, your protest have no bearing on this. I don't even care if you convert or not, the Plan of Salvation will overtake you, and there is nothing you can do about it. It's really quite funny.

So in other words, ....I am, with or without my consent, forced into this scheme of religious fascism, because you and your holy manual say so.

I'm quite sure this attitude of yours will be attractive to contemporary mankind.

Originally posted by bogomil

So in other words, ....I am, with or without my consent, forced into this scheme of religious fascism, because you and your holy manual say so.

I'm quite sure this attitude of yours will be attractive to contemporary mankind.

Fascism is a specific political ideology, so why do you apply it here? It's a sloppy use of terms. My attitude in this matter is irrelevant, as is its attractiveness. You are correct, however, in assessing your situation. You are an un-indicted co-defendant. You can not escape your fate, bad in the short term, good in the long term. You should know that I am a Universal Reconciliationist.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by bogomil

So in other words, ....I am, with or without my consent, forced into this scheme of religious fascism, because you and your holy manual say so.

I'm quite sure this attitude of yours will be attractive to contemporary mankind.

Fascism is a specific political ideology, so why do you apply it here? It's a sloppy use of terms. My attitude in this matter is irrelevant, as is its attractiveness. You are correct, however, in assessing your situation. You are an un-indicted co-defendant. You can not escape your fate, bad in the short term, good in the long term. You should know that I am a Universal Reconciliationist.

edit on 8-6-2011 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

The last resort, dictionary quibblings. I'm afraid, that I have justification for using the expressions 'religious' or 'ideological' fascism.

Quote: ["You can not escape your fate, bad in the short term, good in the long term."]

According to you, that is. I'm sorry, if my trust in your doctrines is smaller than my trust in the flying spaghetti monster doctrines, which seem less fairytale-like than yours, but basically build on the same lack of validation.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Leahn

In what way is it the opposite of a null hypothesis?

I didn't say it was the opposite of a null hypothesis. I said it was the opposite hypothesis, as is, it is an hypothesis contrary to what he is trying to prove. Pay attention to what other people write before replying lest your whole reply be nothing but a strawman argument. A valid "null hypothesis" for his hypothesis is "God's existence is uncertain, or unproven."

Well, if it's the deity of the Christian Bible, that deity says that all things are possible through faith.

I think you do not understand what the word "possible" means on that passage. There is a distinct possibility in English to use the word "possible" to indicate possibility, and to indicate "capability" which leads to an unnecessary ambiguity on the English text. The passage you refer to is Mark 9:3, and the word "possible" used in the passage is "dunata" which means "strong, mighty or able" and implies the use of one's own strength. This is in opposition to "dunamis" (Mark 6:5) which means miraculous power granted by God.

Moreso, I think the OP's lack of faith is kind of well-established.

Which rules would those be?

Free will, to start with. He is asking God to suspend the possibility of free will, worldwide, for a number of days, so he can make a point in a random forum? Isn't it a bit too much hubris for a single person?

Your understanding of basic critical thinking is a no-go if you think there isn't a null hypothesis.

That's not what I said. I said that his null hypothesis isn't a valid null hypothesis. It is an affirmative premise, that is, it makes a statement about God's existence, that is, that He doesn't exist. When making said statement, the OP incurred in burden of proof for his statement, which he has not met.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
You neglected to mention that God was not privy to that "deal." It was all in the mind of Jephthah, who did admit that he had made his oath foolishly.

That actually is not true...According to your bible Jephthah was under the influence of the Holy Spirit when he made that vow

Judges 11v29-31
Then the Spirit of the LORD came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands,whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

I don't know why people always neglect that it all started with the Spirit of the LORD coming on Jephthah.

Originally posted by Leahn
That's not what I said. I said that his null hypothesis isn't a valid null hypothesis. It is an affirmative premise, that is, it makes a statement about God's existence, that is, that He doesn't exist. When making said statement, the OP incurred in burden of proof for his statement, which he has not met.

If God was absolute truth he would pass any test thrown at him since absolute truth is a singularity. If God is a singularity then it also means he is infinite, then there would be no way my tests would miss him since properties of his existence are everywehere.

reply to post by LiveEquation


You didn't read my response,I,already answered your question!

reply to post by LiveEquation


Your argument makes no sense whatsoever. Nothing can pass any test whatsoever, specially one test designed to make it fail. I'd like your defense to the idea that absolute truths are a singularity. You've been following a seriously slippery slope there. You make an assumption after an assumption after an assumption after an assumption, and your argument seriously makes no sense whatsoever. Tell you what... let's do it rationally. You made the following statements:

* God is an absolute truth.

What is an absolute truth, and why is God one?

* Absolute truths are singularities.

Why?

* Singularities are infinites

Why?

And where in your tests do you account for the fact that God also has free will and may choose to not to cooperate, specially given your affirmation that "no way your tests would miss him" ?

reply to post by LiveEquation


God is perfect,he doesn't have to defend himself.Either you believe him or don't.He has gave proof from the beginning of time. All I,can say is when judgement day comes,we all will know. Jesus said the world hated him first.That the world would hate us to.But I have this: once I was a sinner without hope, purpose, or position; now I am a follower of Christ who has often sined, but has hope in Christ’s unceasing presence and activity; purpose in the loving and caring for a hurting world; and position as the Heir of an eternal kingdom that already exists.

That does not mean that I don’t want to know what YOU are feeling, what you believe, and what you have experienced in this world. I believe that I am becoming extremely open-minded to those encounters. And I will re-affirm my apologies to those who have been hurt by the Christian church, it’s followers, and its misrepresented ideals…it is a poor reflection of the God we serve. But for me to deny or step away from God at this point is to deny my own life…it is a path of self-annihilation that leads to nothingness. What motivation do I have for that? That is just as foolish to me as you are thinking I am being right now.

book of Hosea, chapter 10:12: “Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love, and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord.”

From the journal of David, namely Psalm 73: “But as for me, it is good to be near God. I have made the Sovereign Lord my refuge; I will tell of all your deeds.”

From the book of Hebrews in the New Testament, chapter 4: “For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard it did not combine it with faith.”
My faith may look silly and simplistic to an outside world, but it has come about because of a complex set of experiences, teachings, encounters, desires, and hurts. For you to call it silly is to insult me and my life. On the other hand, for me to call someone of different beliefs silly for believing what they believe, whether it is a different religious ideology or a-theism, is equally insulting. I hope that we will find a place to enter into each others stories and discover what brought us together to this point. The point can’t be about conversion, but of bringing two people together in understanding and empathy. And most importantly, reaching across a chasm of apathy, fear, and mistrust, in order to find solace. .
However, part of that mutual understanding has GOT to be that we both accept that each desires, hopes, nay, even prays, that the other will come to their side…to not expect that is to not expect love. If I am true to my faith and human empathy, then my greatest desire is for you to come to know Christ Jesus and gain eternal life. At the same time, I would not respect you nearly as much if, say you were an a-theist, but you never hoped to ”save me” from my self-imposed god-delusions.But my dear friends,I,chose to follow my God and Jesus.I,believe in creation,there had to be a Creater! God is everywhere,in everything. We,are a part of God,we are his children.

Time is short,the signs are everywhere,when the the time comes,Jesus will separate the goats from the sheep ,means evil from good. I,am not here to stop your test,but my Lord doesn't need tested,Like when Jesus was in the desert,evil tried to get him to call on the lord,to test him.Jesus said no and I,say no. I,will admit,Christians today put on heavy yokes for you to follow.But it wasn't the way God wanted it to be.Go back to the garden,thats all he asked of us. Man kind changed so many things of Gods will. All he asked us to do was to follow him and obey his commandments,He is our father,just like our human father wants us to obey him.

Gods word is truth,before I,got saved,I was so stubborn.I,wanted it my way my time,I,was right and everyone was wrong.Then I,heard and found truth.When I,repented my life totally changed.instantly.I,didn't drink any more and other things.My heart became kind,I,was more loving and caring to all people.My desires changed from bad to good.Now,I,have a relationship with my Lord.I,pray all the time,I,talk to him all the time. I,don't pray to him when I,only need or want something.He is my father,i,can talk to him anytime.Its mostly in the early mornings.

I,also learned not to pray foolish,but honestly.I,do ask for things,but I,don't demand him,or test him.He will give me what He thinks I,should have.He doesn't want me hurt or to do without. Like I,said Satan rules earth now,because of the garden of eden. When Jesus comes back,we will have all that peace and glory back.No pain or suffering. The holy spirit is here now to help and comfort us.God does send angels to help us.Like I,said I,hope your prayer is answered,But don't use it as a experiment or test.Then maybe your prayer will be answered.

All you have to do is seek and you shall find,the door is open.But you must have faith and believe..I,might be wrong I,feel from the beginning you don't believe in answer.You already saying He won't answer your experiment.I,don't like calling it a experiment,it should be a prayer.But already you say you don't believe and say he doesn't exit.So,you already are cutting him out to answer.It seems like you are searching for answers,they are here my friend.God loves you.Give him a chance,he is a wonderful father.Good luck,I,don't have to defend my lord,in the end he will prove himself.I,will not mock or test my lord or put or disclaim my lord.

reply to post by Leahn


,like what you say

reply to post by Leahn


hahaha..i guess the bible then is full of assumptions...was Jesus lying when he said

Matthew 7:7,8,11
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened...If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!.

Was he lying or are you going to make an assumption that you knew what was on Jesus' mind even though your bible says you cannot know his mind?

Originally posted by Leahn

And where in your tests do you account for the fact that God also has free will and may choose to not to cooperate, specially given your affirmation that "no way your tests would miss him" ?

clearly you do not understand what absolute truth is...

-Absolute truth does not depend on anything
-Absolute truth doesn't change. It remains the same no matter what happens
-If God is absolute truth then he has no free will to change.
-He is bound to do whatever Jesus said he would do. He has no choice.

The only assumption i made in my experimental design was that the christian God was absolute truth.

reply to post by venusstarlite


I am going to show you that God has on more than one occasion accepted human sacrifice.

I believe you have read this incident posted in this thread by madnessinmysoul. Jephthah, under the power of the Holy Spirit, made an oath to make a burnt sacrifice to God..we learn later God took his young virgin daughter for a sacrifice.

God actually gave a law concerning human sacrifice to himself...

Leviticus 27:28-29
But nothing that a person owns and devotes to the LORD—whether a human being or an animal or family land—may be sold or redeemed; everything so devoted is most holy to the LORD. No person devoted to destruction may be ransomed; they are to be put to death.

This is just an example...even King David sacrificed men to God to appease him.I am always amazed at how Christians "really" know the bible.

Another human sacrifice i will talk about is that of Jesus. I actually want to discuss it as it has relevance to my experiment.

The first question we should all ask is:

Where was Jesus sacrificed? What temple was Jesus sacrificed in? Was Jesus sacrificed on earth or in the temple in heaven? Where was Jesus sacrificed?

The verse that makes me ask these questions is this:

Hebrews 2v17, 9v11,24
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people...he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation..It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Day 3
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Suspected robber killed in police-involved shooting
www.wsvn.com...

Man shot to death in Aurora
www.chicagotribune.com...

Fatal shooting at the home of police officer reported
www.philly.com...

Originally posted by LiveEquation

Originally posted by Leahn
That's not what I said. I said that his null hypothesis isn't a valid null hypothesis. It is an affirmative premise, that is, it makes a statement about God's existence, that is, that He doesn't exist. When making said statement, the OP incurred in burden of proof for his statement, which he has not met.

If God was absolute truth he would pass any test thrown at him since absolute truth is a singularity. If God is a singularity then it also means he is infinite, then there would be no way my tests would miss him since properties of his existence are everywehere.

edit on 8-6-2011 by LiveEquation because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-6-2011 by LiveEquation because: (no reason given)

I suspect that God just does not care a fig about your silly tests.

Originally posted by LiveEquation

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
You neglected to mention that God was not privy to that "deal." It was all in the mind of Jephthah, who did admit that he had made his oath foolishly.

That actually is not true...According to your bible Jephthah was under the influence of the Holy Spirit when he made that vow

Judges 11v29-31
Then the Spirit of the LORD came on Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites.And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands,whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”

I don't know why people always neglect that it all started with the Spirit of the LORD coming on Jephthah.

Good point, so I'll just have to ponder that for awhile. Have you shaken my faith? Not.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
I suspect that God just does not care a fig about your silly tests.

Why would he care? Here on earth does gravity care if i drop an apple to the ground? The apple will always fall whether gravity cares or not and gravity is not even an absolute truth.

I never made any assumptions about whether God cares or not. Absolute truth wouldn't care because it doesn't depend on anything

[img]http://www.youtube.com/user/awaitthegroom#p/a/f/0/1mJOMwo22XE[/i mg]reply to post by LiveEquation


I,am done on this subject.You have to make your own mind up.No matter what we tell you,you won't open your mind.So my friend in closing,I,will pray for you.We all have our views and ways.I,stand firming on mine.May god open your heart and eyes to truth.The holy spirit is here now. If you want to know my lord,I,am here.I,won't shove my belief down anyones throat.














My God is real!

reply to post by venusstarlite


I went to university to study the bible...I studied for 1.5 years before deciding to study engineering. I was a fervent believer and knew bible by heart at 16 years of age.I was a youth leader a two churches and I used to walk the streets to preach and convert people to Christianity. Proverbs 2v1-5, Hosea 4v6 and John 17v3 was the beginning of my departure from Christianity. I pursued this knowledge and started asking questions. And i am here today because of that. My mind is open...is yours open?

You failed to respond to Leviticus 27:28-29 which clearly shows that God accepted human sacrifice. And yet God claims that the thought of human sacrifice never entered his mind in Jeremiah 19v5.

Then allegedly God decided to kill his own son as an offering and sacrifice to himself for your sins...Christianity is based on human sacrifice. Ephesians 5v2 says that the smell of this human offering and sacrifice was a pleasing aroma to God.

The other question I asked you is what alter was Jesus sacrificed on...was it on earth or in heaven? i gave you verses that say Jesus' sacrifice was in a Temple not of this creation and not of this earth. His body was fully human and of this creation so the analogy of his body being a temple doesn't count.

These are not hard questions. I just want to know how well you are aware of christian doctrines. The other doctrine is that of polytheism. You believe in 3 Gods who happen to be one God. Some bibles have the verse and some don't. Makes you wonder why.