Assisted suicide advocate Kevorkian dies at age 83

reply to post by antar


I dont think thats true.

Animals have no choice. They dont have the ability to choose "i want to live", and so there is no merit, or point for an animals continued sufferring.

But, the question behind suicide, or assited suicide, from a Jewish perspective is this:

G-d gave man free will. We have an intellectual prowess to choose between two conflicting things. For instance, my lower, 'animal' or habitual nature, draws me in one direction. An animal can NEVER go against its instinct. An animal will always follow its habit; what it usually does, or is programmed to do. Thus, an animal when sufferring, suffers, and has no ability to rise above its sufferring, or understand any meaning or purpose behind its sufferring. On the other hand, a Human Being CAN understand sufferring. Sufferring is horrible. It is painful, but also, it is apart of life. And all who have sufferred know that sufferring that is accepted, and used, is cathartic; it is a gateway to a new understanding. This is 'redemptive sufferring'. Sufferring which leads to a higher level of existence.

Also on a deeper level. Death is not the end of sufferring. For a spiritually minded person, you should know there is an afterlife; which all the great religions speak of. Sufferring Endured HERE makes up for the sufferring that will be endured there. The point of sufferring is to cleanse and purify the soul (or consciousness) of impure aspects it has picked up in this world. So, why 'kill yourself' here, if youre only going to compound your sufferring in the next world? Tought it out. Have Faith. Show Strength. Give yourself up in the same way that you will have to give yourself up when you die. I know it isnt easy, and its not supposed to be.

Although to clarify the above statements.

I consider something to be 'assisted suicide' only in the sense where the person can live without any medical assistence. Thus, if a person is being kept alive via some breathing device, or some other medical equipment, and would otherwise have died already; then taking away the device and allowing him to die is perfectly fine.

Only in those cases where his sufferring hasnt led to a natural death would i disagree.

Rest in Pease.
If you have to watch your father die full of painkillers.
then you can say yes or no!
I hope I dont have to see or die in so much pain that
they have to give me morphine to stop me screaming.

RIP DR. Kevorkian.

He was the *boogy man* while I was growing up.

As I got older I learnt what it was really all about.

I remember a rugrats episode where the grandfather
was explaining the easter pass over...
Stu got out his home videos and grandfather was on phone and said *HELLO DR. Kevorkian*
As a kid I still understood what it meant..

I thank Dr. Kevorkian for his contribution to science
and even if you disagree or not with him
he got the ISSUE OUT IN THE OPEN

WHICH IS ALWAYS GOOD!!

Be it minority rights, gay rights, women rights, dying patients rights...

reply to post by dontreally


I I so totally disagree with you on every level. You are simply putting out what has been conditioned for you to say in this instance, it gives you comfort to repeat what you have been told.

I am fine with that as I see it all the time, without judgement I accept where you are and value not your conditioning but you as an individual on this glorious path towards our shared enlightenment. It is inevitable you will one day fully embrace all truths without conditioning, maybe this life or a million lives from now but it is certain.

reply to post by dontreally


Have you ever been to a Kosher Slaughter house?

reply to post by antar


Are you serious? You think what i just wrote is the result of "what i have been told"?

You must not be a very deep thinker. If you want to disagree - put forth a reason for it. But to think my philosophical reasoning is the result of dogma, and not my own personal ruminations on the subject....you must not be very educated.

reply to post by antar


lol.... Yes..ive seen those PETA videos too...

And just to clarify, Kosher slaughter is the most humane way to kill an animal. Do i support what some slaughterhouses do? No. But in principle, the basic process of slaughtering an animal according to Jewish Law -slitting the neck, IMMEDIATELY , as in within 2 seconds, leads to unconsciousness of the animal.

Whereas the 'common' industrial method of shooting a nail into the animals head does not lead to unconsciousness. The animal is still in a great deal of pain. And as for why the former method - slitting the throat - leads to unconsciousness, and not shooting a nail into the animals brain; a major artery passes through the front of a Cow, or a Sheep or a Goats neck (as opposed to a pig, where blood passes through both the anterior and interior arteries). About 80% of the bodies blood passes through there. So, once this artery is cut, within a minute most of the animals blood pours out and no blood/oxygen can be brought to the brain; thus, it leads to unconsciousness very quickly. This has already been amply proven. Also, since youre probably not acquainted with animal slaughter. After an animal gets its neck slit and loses consciousness, its muscles begin to fidget. This is a automatic response and it isnt a sign of the animals continued pain. It isnt the nicest sight, but its a basic fact of human anatomy. All animals do this. For isntance, if you were to cut the head of a chicken off, the body might still walk around. It is the muscular memory in the body, and that is it. The animal is long gone even after the body begins to fidget.

In anycase, what does this have to do with anything? You think that one PETA video is proof of cruelty in Jewish thought? This is your evidence?

You New Agers are literally no different from fundamentalist Christians. You swallow dogma because you think as much as they think, that what youre now learning is an incontrovertible, indisputable truth; and of course what everyone else believes is "dogma". Newsflash; any belief is a dogma. Even a belief that tries to avoid any dogmatic belief, is initself, a dogma.

There is only rational thought. And i put rational thought, and reasoning into why assisted suicide can be wrong. Of course, you are allowed to disagree. But if youre going to disagree, disagree intelligently. Dont tell me im just 'conditioned'. Thats what an unedecuated ignoramus does.

Originally posted by BrokenCircles
Hypocrite should have offed himself years ago.

What was he waiting around for?

Do you even know the full story? Don't judge this man before you know the full story. He didn't get off on killing people, he wanted to actually help the people that were in tremendous pain with no end in site. He basically empowered these patience to make a choice for themselves rather than for the illness to make the choice for them. To call him a hypocrite is just being ignorant...

Originally posted by BrokenCircles
reply to post by iterationzero

 

Death came naturally to the man who'd vowed he'd starve himself rather than endure submit to the state's authority behind bars.

".... it's a matter of I don't want to live as a slave and imprisonment is the ultimate slavery," he said in 1998.

Kevorkian was convicted of second-degree murder and drew a 10-25-year prison term at his 1999 sentencing. He was released in 2005 and discharged from parole in 2009.

www.usatoday.com...

Starving yourself is easier said than done, just ask any anorexic who's been at deaths door for decades. It doesn't make him a hipocrite. Suicide is not the easy way out that people assume. People who were going to die anyway, in excruciating pain, needed ASSISTANCE to overcome the most basic of instincts. Without help, you have to be seriously mentally ill to overcome that survival instinct. Thats why most suicide attempts fail, and the ones that succeed are often 'accidentally' successful. Kudo's to Kevorkian!

Rest in peace, Dr. K.

And thank your for your tireless efforts and sacrifice.

I admired that man, mostly because if I'm in pain and agony why do I still need to be alive ? I mean seriously, you can be in so much pain that you cannot see straight. I'd rather die by the needle of him then screaming to god to take me now.

good riddens dr death

maybe his mother should have aborted him and assisted in his suicide.

yeah i said that even tho i dont beleive in abortion just i dont believe in committing sucide.

i brought up abortion because its relation to assisted sucide a different shad of the same thing.

abortion is good
suicide is good
war is bad.

this site does get tireing at times.

reply to post by neo96


abortion is a choice
suicide is a choice
war is usually inflicted upon us

though we do have a choice to go - if you choose to go, thats your choice - I do not fault our military personel for their choices - if they die there, no one calls them suicidal - even though they knew their chances of surviving were pretty sucky

if I make the choice to abort my own life or someone elses - I'll have to answer for that (or I won't, its on me, not you)

reply to post by dreamingawake


Working in healthcare for years, I am a very large proponent for AS. I don't think anyone should be able to make a judgement call about it until they watch a man die of inoperable bladder/testicular cancer, holding his hand as he passes.... it certainly would open some eyes.

Originally posted by nixie_nox

Not to mention, that any savings they had, were drained by the nursing home, leaving my grandmother with very little to survive on.

That's so sad that happened to her, but that right there is why we can't have assisted suicide. It would take too much extra money out of someone's pocket. The one's making the money could care less whether or not we die with dignity. This man did people a favor in my opinion. To all the naysayers that think he's a monster, have you watched a family member die of some horrible disease? Where THEY wish they were dead every day, until they finally die, too weak to even get up to go to the bathroom (happened to my favorite Uncle). A lot of people are very religious and think that suicide leads to purgatory so they need a little help putting that last leg in the grave. If I had a choice between going out with dignity, or going out so sick I can't walk and in so much pain that even morphine won't stop it, I'd take this man's services any day.

He's free of human judgement for his thoughts on aiding people to die in a dignified way. We all eventually die.. Dignified, or not.

He no longer matters, and why this is a topic is mute.
There isl sorts of suffering going on in the world, in case nobody has noticed, outside of people wanting a dignified way to die.

Concentrate on those who need to strive for a dignified way to live.

The end is undeniable, what is there, while we are here, and needed, is a dignified way to live for all participants on earth.

Originally posted by BrokenCircles
Hypocrite should have offed himself years ago.

What was he waiting around for?

I am also curious as to what makes him a hypocrite?

It is one thing to grow old and die from declining health due to your age. It is another to be stricken with a terminal illness.

I support this man's decisions. If I ever had a terminal illness that left me in constant pain and suffering with no hope at all for any type of recovery or life without pain, I would end my own life and end my own suffering and there is nothing anyone can do about that. You certainly would not be able to stop me. So now the question becomes, which is more humane? Is it more humane that I should put a gun in my mouth and pull the trigger or is it more humane to have a Dr. give me a shot and let me go peacefully without scarring my loved ones by having to clean up my brain matter off the wall?

I live in Washington State where the "death with dignity" act was passed in 2008. It is Initiative -1000. Competent adults in Washington State who medically have 6 months or less to live can request from their Doctor a medication prescribed and then self administer the medication to die in peace and end their suffering.

I personally have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand....if you have been told you have a short time to live and you are suffering a lot; perhaps you should have the choice to end your suffering.

On the other hand....I believe in miracles....and have witnessed some....so...I am thinking what if their miracle is just around the corner.

reply to post by MrWendal


What makes you think sufferring ends with death?

ALL religions, and all their esoteric, mystical traditions, talk about an afterlife state....and it involves a great deal of emotional sufferring. Whos to say whats worse? All those who have had a traumatic NDE describe the pain as deeper, and more painful then even physical pain.

Isnt this worthy of your consideration? Doesnt the metaphysical reality have any say in this?

This is the value and worth of physical sufferring. It strengthens you. It strengthens your 'being'. You become more, paradoxically, then you were before. I myself have endured sufferring that probably many of you would have pulled the plug on (mental sufferring). And yet, my faith and trust brought me through. And i can only explain the significance of the value of sufferring metaphorically. Its as if my mind, represented as a circle, became larger. And now i see from a larger perspective. I could never have attained this level without having the attitude that i have toward sufferring. And even if that sufferring precedes death. Thats OK. You shouldnt have any ulterior motive to begin with. It just so happens that sufferring makes you stronger. Also, the terminal sufferring tolerated and endured with total faith and acceptance yields a similar reward to one who works his entire life towards one goal. We all know that it is better to earn something then to be given it for free. Any thoughtful person knows how true this is. Likewise, one who endures the pain and sufferring of a terminal illness in acceptance - is rewarded in the next world with a profound pleasure - corresponding to the degree of the sufferring endured. This also is a basic dynamic found in nature.

So if you think youre going to enter a wonderful paradise of constant bliss following death, you have another thing coming. Even the greatest among us - the most pious and saintly, have some degree of 'dross' to be cleansed from before they enter a state of peace. This is a basic metaphysical fact; acknowledged by Yogis, Kabbalists, Buddhists, Sufis, Philosophers etc..