New Vietnam Veteran Anti-Kerry Ad

Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.
....

"I deplore this kind of politics," McCain said. "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War."

SFGATE

Now McCain is a liar?


[edit on 5-8-2004 by curme]

Originally posted by donguillermo
Obviously, you doubt that I served in the Marine Corps, since you are providing so much detail and challenging me to do the same. It has been 35 years since I served and I do not remember the details such as my unit designations.

Don,

Your story sounds plausible, in so far as the timelines and the events match up pretty well. It is, however, difficult for me to understand that you would be so vague about things like unit designations and MOS. Also, your referral to Recruit Training (or more, commonly, Boot Camp) as basic training, infantry training, rather than ITR, guerilla warfare training at Camp Pendleton, rather than Staging Bn. It is true that 35 years is a long time. But, there are things that stay with Marines, not the least of which is the language. This is especially true when speaking to another Marine.

I am a member of a Marine board on WebTV. Our members range from WWII to Korea to Vietnam to the Persian Gulf war and Somalia. It gives me a great sense of pride that all these Marines from different eras and different experiences can come together and speak the same language.

Oh, sure, sometimes a Marine will spit out an acronym that is foreign to the rest because a given thing will have been renamed or the vernacular has change over time, e.g., EGA for Eagle, Globe and Anchor or OOHRAH as a multi-utility word.

One thing that I wonder about is your schooling. You said you completed RTR and ITR and then awaited OCS, opting out finally to serve out your enlistment. Were you trained as a data processor?

If you served, I am grateful for that, but I have to wonder how you can reconcile Kerry's behavior upon returning to the US. John Kerry turned coat and sided with the communists. He lied about the actions of the military in Vietnam. I really don't care what Kerry did in Vietnam. I know that, while he was awarded three Purple Heart Awards, there is no way anyone else in country at the time could have been awarded even one Purple Heart for any of the "wounds" he received, given the criteria which I posted earlier.

But, that is not what counts. Kerry betrayed his country and took sides with the enemy. That's all any loyal American needs to know. Anyone who supports him is siding with the enemy, because John Kerry is the enemy.


[edit on 04/8/5 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
But, that is not what counts. Kerry betrayed his country and took sides with the enemy. That's all any loyal American needs to know. Anyone who supports him is siding with the enemy, because John Kerry is the enemy.
[edit on 04/8/5 by GradyPhilpott]

I was in Iraq, with the Army, during the initial invasion of Iraq (G.W., not his Dad). I speak out against the occupation every chance I get. Am I betraying my country? I'm I not a loyal American? I think people like Kerry, or myself, have a unique perspective about the conflicts we were in, and have an obligation, as loyal Americans, to tell fellow Americans, what an atrocity we were in involved in.

Originally posted by donguillermo
The group, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, has been discussed in this thread.

Swift Boat Veterans Oppose Kerry

In that thread, only one member of the group was shown to have actually served on the same boat with Kerry. Some of the others served on other swift boats while Kerry was in Viet Nam. The leader of the group, John O'Neill, who also wrote the book that the group has published, arrived in Viet Nam two months after Kerry left Viet Nam. John O'Neill has no first-hand knowledge of Kerry's service in Viet Nam.

But that hasn't stopped O'Neill from dogging Kerry for 30 years, trying to discredit him. This guy appeared on a TV debate with Kerry during, and with the approval of, the Nixon administration. He has been after Kerry ever since. He claims to be non-partisan, but it seems obvious to me that he is a Republican operative, and that his group is being funded with Republican money.

Oh my God...you mean to tell me that O'Neill arrived only 2 months after Kerry left?

That means that Kerry should have served 6 months with O'Neill, after all everyone else served for a whole year or were severely wounded.

Kerry left after 4 months and had enough strength to throw his medals over the white house fence.

Can you please...shut-up? Idiot....

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by donguillermo
Obviously, you doubt that I served in the Marine Corps, since you are providing so much detail and challenging me to do the same. It has been 35 years since I served and I do not remember the details such as my unit designations.

Don,

Your story sounds plausible, in so far as the timelines and the events match up pretty well. It is, however, difficult for me to understand that you would be so vague about things like unit designations and MOS.

The only unit I was ever assigned to was in Viet Nam, where I told you I was in the Headquarters and Supply Battallion at Red Beach. Since I have not had to refer to my MOS number in 35 years, why is it difficult to understand that I forgot it?

Also, your referral to Recruit Training (or more, commonly, Boot Camp) as basic training, infantry training, rather than ITR, guerilla warfare training at Camp Pendleton, rather than Staging Bn.,

Excuse me, you are much more into being an ex-marine than I am. That is evidenced by all the abbreviations used in your previous post. You don't think I knew I was in boot camp at Parris Island?? As far as the other terminology, you really expect me to remember exactly what the Marines called it after 35 years? That chapter of my life is long closed. You are obviously still reliving your Marine Corps experience.

It is true that 35 years is a long time. But, there are things that stay with Marines, not the least of which is the language. This is especially true when speaking to another Marine.

I have told you what I remember. I am sorry that I don't use the precise military terms and abbreviations which you think would show I actually served in the Marine Corps.

One thing that I wonder about is your schooling. You said you completed RTR and ITR and then awaited OCS, opting out finally to serve out your enlistment. Were you trained as data processor?

I enlisted in the Marine Corps, I wasn't drafted. Before I enlisted, I had four years professional experience as a computer programmer and systems analyst for three major computer manufacturers, Univac, General Electric, and Honeywell. I didn't need to be trained in data processing.

If you served,

If I served??? If I served??? WTF do you think you are? You demanded that I give details of my service so you could be sure that I actually served. I am not obligated to prove anything to you or anyone else. I gave you a narrative account of my service, giving what detail I remember. I also gave you my service number and a link to my name so you could use the FOIA to get a copy of my service records. Now, because I don't use the military abbreviations and terminology which you consider correct, you still have doubts about whether I really served? Please.

I am grateful for that, but I have to wonder how you can reconcile Kerry's behavior upon returning to the US. John Kerry turned coat and sided with the communists.

That is all your interpretation of Kerry's actions. He never sided with the communists. If you bother to read the link I provided you, their is no merit to the claim that he committed treason. John McCain fully supports the honor of Kerry's service, and has denounced the anti-Kerry ads as dishonest and dishonorable. All but one of the men who actually served on the same boat with Kerry support him and make positive statements about his military service.

He lied about the actions of the military in Vietnam.

I am not persuaded that he lied in his Senate testimony. He was merely repeating testimony of other Viet Nam veterans during the Winter Soldier investigation.

But, that is not what counts. Kerry betrayed his country and took sides with the enemy.

That is just your opinion, it is not fact. I have looked at the actual facts in some detail. In my opinion, Kerry never betrayed his country, and he never took sides with the enemy.

That's all any loyal American needs to know. Anyone who supports him is siding with the enemy, because John Kerry is the enemy.

No, actually you and people like you are the enemy. John Kerry is a war hero and a patriot. You are sliming him for purely political reasons. You are claiming that anyone who supports Kerry is siding with the enemy. Siding with the enemy is treason. In other words, you are accusing me of treason because I support John Kerry. It is simply unamerican to call people traitors because they disagree with you politically. You are the real traitor to your country for sliming and lying about Kerry. Please do not think that all veterans agree with you about Kerry. The last poll I saw, Bush led Kerry in support among veterans by 56-40. That means 40% of veterans think Kerry will be a better President than George Bush.

By the way, why aren't you sliming Bush for his service record? The record clearly shows he was AWOL and a deserter. Don't think so? You can start your investigation of Bush's service record here.

DESERTER: THE STORY OF GEORGE W. BUSH AFTER HE QUIT THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD

Originally posted by curme

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
But, that is not what counts. Kerry betrayed his country and took sides with the enemy. That's all any loyal American needs to know. Anyone who supports him is siding with the enemy, because John Kerry is the enemy.
[edit on 04/8/5 by GradyPhilpott]

I was in Iraq, with the Army, during the initial invasion of Iraq (G.W., not his Dad). I speak out against the occupation every chance I get. Am I betraying my country? I'm I not a loyal American? I think people like Kerry, or myself, have a unique perspective about the conflicts we were in, and have an obligation, as loyal Americans, to tell fellow Americans, what an atrocity we were in involved in.

I stand by my statement. The tide has turned. America's enemies are in our midst and they are hell-bent-for-leather to destroy us and our way of life. If these conditions are not enough to cause you to put aside your petty wrangling and stand up proudly as a loyal American, willing to risk all for our preservation, then you are the enemy.

To paraphrase GW Bush, you are either with us or you are against us.

Originally posted by FreeMason
Can you please...shut-up? Idiot....

FreeMason, why do you keep violating ATS rules against insulting other posters? I predict you will soon have a little red rectangle in your profile for calling me an idiot.

*sighs*

Remain on-topic and stop with the sniping & name calling, people.
Let's act like adults here.

Originally posted by donguillermo,

The last poll I saw, Bush led Kerry in support among veterans by 56-40. That means 40% of veterans think Kerry will be a better President than George Bush.

Must be old data - the latest Rasmussen poll has the numbers at: BUSH 58%
KERRY 35%

Veterans prefer Bush as Commander-in-Chief by a 60% to 33% margin. Fifty-four percent (54%) of veterans give the President good or excellent ratings for handling the situation in Iraq. Overall, just 43% of voters give the President such positive ratings on Iraq.

Rasmussen

Just thought I'd pass that along

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I stand by my statement. The tide has turned. America's enemies are in our midst and they are hell-bent-for-leather to destroy us and our way of life. If these conditions are not enough to cause you to put aside your petty wrangling and stand up proudly as a loyal American, willing to risk all for our preservation, then you are the enemy.

To paraphrase GW Bush, you are either with us or you are against us.

Petty wrangling? Americans are dying because of a lie! Some have that "I don't care if America is wrong, it's un-American to say so!" mentality. I'm not one of them. If our government is doing wrong, we, as American citizens, have the obligation to let them know.

GradyPhilpott, just for you, I went and dug out my DD-214. This is the short form, report of transfer or discharge. It doesn't list all my duty stations, but perhaps the following military abbreviations and codes will satisfy you.

My MOS was 4011, DataProcEquipOper. As I explained, I actually held the job title of computer programmer.

The reason and authority for my transfer or discharge was 411-CofG. Auth Para 6012.1a MARCORSEPMAN MCOs 1910.23 & 1900.2E.

My last duty assignment and major command was H&HSCo, SupBn, 1st FSR//FLC.

My decorations, medals, and badges included Rifle Expert Badge, National Defense Medal, and Vietnam Service Medal. The Navy Achievement Medal with Combat "V", which I previously mentioned, was awarded after my release from active duty. The Marine Corps invited me to attend an awards ceremony at MCAS, Yuma, Arizona, but I declined.

Is that good enough?

All this does is highlight the fact that GW Bush is a Chicken pussy who couldn't even be bothered to show up for bogus duty in Alabama. He was AWOL and a DESERTER.

"The documents released on Friday by the Pentagon included two faded computerized payroll sheets showing Bush was not paid during the latter part of 1972 and offer no evidence to place Bush in Alabama during the latter part of 1972."
www.reuters.com...
He wasn't paid because he wasnt there. period.
.

Originally posted by slank
All this does is highlight the fact that GW Bush is a Chicken pussy who couldn't even be bothered to show up for bogus duty in Alabama. He was AWOL and a DESERTER.

"The documents released on Friday by the Pentagon included two faded computerized payroll sheets showing Bush was not paid during the latter part of 1972 and offer no evidence to place Bush in Alabama during the latter part of 1972."
www.reuters.com...
He wasn't paid because he wasnt there. period.
.

You should do a bit more research than "online research" because you obviously spent the last 5 minutes catching-up on a lot of history. Clue #1, Bush was helping his dad campaign in Alabama.

Originally posted by donguillermo

My MOS was 4011, DataProcEquipOper. As I explained, I actually held the job title of computer programmer. My last duty assignment and major command was H&HSCo, SupBn, 1st FSR//FLC.

My decorations, medals, and badges included Rifle Expert Badge, National Defense Medal, and Vietnam Service Medal. The Navy Achievement Medal with Combat "V", which I previously mentioned, was awarded after my release from active duty. The Marine Corps invited me to attend an awards ceremony at MCAS, Yuma, Arizona, but I declined.

Is that good enough?

I'm not reliving my Marine years, Don, but those years a part of who I am. The experiences of those years are wired permanently into my brain. I don't remember everything with perfect accuracy about my enlistment, either and I was never happier than on the day I was released, but no Marine ever doubts that I am a Marine, because that is who I am. It's indelible; it's unmistakable; it's beyond my control. I might has well try to be a frog.

In fact, the only people I have ever had to convince with solid evidence of my service are those who have never served and who woudn't know a Marine if one walked up and bit him on the buttocks. I've never met a Marine yet who had to look at his DD-214 to know his MOS, but I guess anything is possible. I guess it is true that there are those who were in the Marine Corps, but never became Marines.

GradyPhilpott says,

I guess it is true that there are those who were in the Marine Corps, but never became Marines.

Oh, so now you are a real Marine, but I am not? I went through boot camp and infantry training, same as you. I qualified with the M-14, same as you. I wore the same uniform you did. I served in Viet Nam, same as you. I received an honorable discharge, same as you.

But because I can't remember enough details and use enough military abbreviations to satisfy you, I am not a real Marine???

I have really had enough of your chest-thumping, flag-waving, patriotic pride in having been one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children. You are really dishonoring yourself by refusing to honor my service to my country and John Kerry's service to his country. You should really be ashamed of yourself for sliming and lying about John Kerry, and for claiming that I am not a real Marine.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by RANT
Wow. You missed alot over there. Let me catch you up as to what really happened to your country while you were away, and submit it wasn't all John Kerry.

Rant

I'm fully aware of the events you mention. Your language tells me that you are a marxist who despises the principles this nation was founded on. You are the enemy. You are what is wrong with America, if in fact, you actually reside here. If you do live here, you might actually feel more comfortable in Canada or France.

Gee, I normally have to log into kiddie political chat on AOL to be called a marxist, an enemy of the state, accused of being one of those America hating "foreigners" and invited to leave followed by a string of laughing lol's.

It's ironic considering you're the one complaining how awful this country has been the last 35 years, that you're inviting ME to leave. I'm perfectly happy here, think this is the greatest country in the world, and vastly superior now to much of it's past. Maybe you should leave. Or better yet, build a time machine.

On topic, if anyone hasn't mentioned it, today's response to McCain's plea that Bush denounce the SwiftVet's message (and their opportunistic media whore leader - my words) came from the Bush camp on CNN as "We have never nor will we ever question Kerry's service in Vietnam."

Case closed.

Originally posted by donguillermo
GradyPhilpott says,

I guess it is true that there are those who were in the Marine Corps, but never became Marines.

I have really had enough of your chest-thumping, flag-waving, patriotic pride in having been one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.

What do you take pride in, Don?

"Once a Marine, always a Marine."

[edit on 04/8/5 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

What do you take pride in, Don?

"Once a Marine, always a Marine."

Well, then, I guess I am stil a Marine, because I was once a Marine.

In 1967, I was working for Honeywell in Boston as a systems analyst. I had a critical skills deferment, and could have easily avoided military service by continuing my occupation. At the time, I didn't know much about anything except computers, but I knew my country was at war.

I take pride in the fact that I felt it was my patriotic duty to help defend my country and enlisted in the USMC. I take pride in the fact that, in boot camp, I shot the highest qualifying score on the rifle range in my platoon, and made PFC out of boot camp. I did not have a college degree. I take pride in the fact that I scored the highest score ever on the OCS qualifying examination, which I took during boot camp. I take pride in the fact that, at Camp LeJeune, the Colonel's Board evaluating me for OCS recommended me with "highest enthusiasm." I take pride in the fact that, when I received a Data Processing MOS, I requested an infantry MOS (0311, was it?). But I was turned down, and was told I was too valuable as a computer programmer.

As I told you, after I decided not to attend OCS, I was stationed at MCRD Parris Island as a computer programmer. Like that Grady? MCRD = Marine Corps Recruit Depot? By that time, I only had about a year left on my enlistment, and I could have easily ridden out the rest of my service stateside. I take pride in the fact that I volunteered to go to Viet Nam. I take pride in the fact that I was awarded the Navy Achievement Medal with Combat "V" for my service. I take pride in the fact that I received an honorable discharge.

After returning to the world (like that, Grady? more USMC slang), like John Kerry, I became extremely critical of the war and engaged in anti-war protests. I have also been opposed to the Iraq War. I take pride in the fact that, despite my anti-war positions, I have never criticized the U.S. military, or any marine, soldier, sailor, or airman who wore the uniform of the USA. I take pride in the fact I have also tried not to be critical of any military veterans. But when you tell me I am not a real Marine, you have gone too far, and you deserve the criticisms I have directed at you.

Whatever happened to the idea of Viet Nam veterans hanging together and supporting each other? Kerry, you, and I are all veterans of that war. Even when we disagree politically, I really think it is unseemly to start questioning each other's patriotism and loyalty to the country we all love.

Rant:

You really won't hear me questioning Kerry's service in Vietnam, either. I do question the awarding of three Purple Hearts for three scratches, but that is not questioning his service. As far as I'm concerned, he conducted himself honorably in Vietnam, even though he has admitted to commiting war crimes while there.

My complaint about Kerry stems entirely from his smear campaign against all those who served and his taking up the cause of the communists. In one of my posts, you will find a link to an interview with a former NVA officer who explains the valuable assistance the anti-war movement gave the communsts during the war. The NVA was literally on their backs when the US withdrew in 1973 and Saigon did not fall until 1975, two years after the last US combat troops left.

There is probably at least one Vietnamese operated Chinese Restaurant wherever you live. You should talk to those who lived under the communst regime about what the fall of Saigon meant to them.

As for leaving this country, I'll leave when I draw my last breath. I fought a war to save this country from a communist takeover. I continue to fight for the preservation of the constitution and I do my best to pass my values on to a younger generation.

My only problem is with an ever growing population of arrogant, sniveling, pampered, nincompoops who have never sacrificed anything for the blessings you enjoy and who respect nothing except your own self-gratification. When I'm gone, you can fend for yourselves.










[edit on 04/8/5 by GradyPhilpott]

Don writes:

Whatever happened to the idea of Viet Nam veterans hanging together and supporting each other?

That's a real good question, Don. When you and John Kerry come up with a good answer, why don't you post it here.

I really don't have a problem with veterans who came home and joined the political debate after serving in Vietnam. I voted for George McGovern and believe to this day that he could not have messed things up more than Nixon did.

But this is a far cry from what John Kerry did upon his return. Read my links, Don. Everything Kerry did is a matter of record. If you can condone these activities or if you engaged in these activities, then I think it is you who owes an explanation to the rest of us.