The brewing civil war no one is talking about

reply to post by bsbray11


Wrong.

We are not Egypt, and what did they gain? Really? They got rid of a military dictator and .............................the military is running things. Yea for them. Thats what happens when a bunch of half baked morons goes off. Nothing. And what will they end up with? A fake democracy just like ours. Woohoo.

We need Americans to turn of the TV, and get engaged in their local politics on a regular, not once every 2-4 year basis. The whole foundation of democracy is citizen participation, and the reason it has been so easily subverted is because people are too busy pleasure seeking to spend the time necessary to MAKE it work.

Throwing a revolution, peaceful or otherwise, is not going to change the fundamental problem, which is lazy pleasure seeking citizens not holding up their end of the political bargain. All you would end up doing is giving the enemies of this nation, the corporations and other wealthy entities, the excuse they needed to seize control of our military and suspend our Constitution.

So, HELL NO we dont need an uprising here. It just digusts me that all you have to do is put something on TV and some bonehead will want to buy it. Including revolution.

Originally posted by Varemia
Actually, it wasn't even that. The taxes that we had weren't that bad, but what the founding fathers were upset with was that the people paying them had no say in their institution.

Exactly, and there's more to it than that but I wasn't trying to write a book. In my home state of Virginia, we were de facto free and our own sovereign nation before the Boston Massacre even took place, after Patrick Henry marched on Williamsburg and scared the last British governor out of his mind. After that the governor hardly left his palace and had no authority in the state, and power went to our House of Burgesses.


I still say that's plenty more backbone than we have today. Ironically Washington DC is taxed without representation. They're too arrogant to care anymore.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Wrong.

We are not Egypt, and what did they gain? Really? They got rid of a military dictator and .............................the military is running things. Yea for them. Thats what happens when a bunch of half baked morons goes off. Nothing. And what will they end up with? A fake democracy just like ours. Woohoo.

What an optimist you are. If only everyone were as courageous as you, maybe we would already have our own dictator by now.

I don't know if you noticed, but the military and police were called in to stop the demonstrations in Egypt, and instead they joined them in demanding their own leader to step down. If you don't want to take anything positive away from that reality, that's your prerogative.

Throwing a revolution, peaceful or otherwise, is not going to change the fundamental problem, which is lazy pleasure seeking citizens not holding up their end of the political bargain.

Really? Because it seems to me throwing a peaceful revolution would be exactly the cure for "lazy pleasure seeking citizens not holding up their end of the political bargain." Civil disobedience even sounds like the complete opposite of lazy political apathy to me.

All you would end up doing is giving the enemies of this nation, the corporations and other wealthy entities, the excuse they needed to seize control of our military and suspend our Constitution.

There are far too many gun-toting rednecks in this country for us to be occupied, even by our own military. This is the most armed population in the world. If they can't handle Iraq, you don't want to even see them try to handle occupying these lands. And who else would occupy us? The rest of NATO and the UN? You think Brits and French and Germans and Greeks and Spanish are going to come over here and occupy us without political consequences back at home, considering Europeans seem to also take issue with the current US administration? China and Russia would stand the best shot but I even doubt they would want to pour the resources into trying to occupy and force government upon the entire US population. Russia already failed at doing the same with Afghanistan.

The whole thing is they make you think you have no power and can't do anything. In reality, they wouldn't be able to do anything to stop us if enough of us were determined and organized enough to stand up.

So, HELL NO we dont need an uprising here. It just digusts me that all you have to do is put something on TV and some bonehead will want to buy it. Including revolution.

I guess your alternative is just to let everything continue rotting into the ground. You can do that by yourself.

reply to post by bsbray11


For how long? For how long would it be the cure for lazy pleasure seeking Americans?

The uprisings in the Mid East arent what they appear to be. Dont be bedazzled by the press. Look at the FACTS. Which are that Egypt exchanged one military backed dictatorship for another. And when they get their "democracy" it will be no different than the one we have now. Two corporatist puppets to choose from.

Our democracy isnt working because of TV. The same TV that is telling you that uprisings are a good idea. The same TV that promotes two corporate candidates for President, and sells you all manner of crap.

The next "move" on the chessboard is a NAU. Our Constitution is in the way of that. The LAST thing this nation needs is to do anything to give them an excuse to suspend it. You are good intentioned, but you arent thinking strategically, nor are you watching what is actually happening. Countries around the globe are being stripped of their sovereignty.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Kind of like after the french revolution they ended up with a Dictator that ruled with an iron fist?

reply to post by Darkk


Revolution is incredibly dangerous. It always has been. You get a bunch of well intended people acting emotionally and trying to right a wrong and often, a bigger wrong sneaks in the door you opened to throw out the bad guy.

We got LUCKY here in the US, we were geographically distant from the established evils of Europe, and so we actually got what we wanted. A real democracy. And a fantastic Constitution that has kept us in as good as shape as we are, despite our laziness and disregard for our good fortune.

We need to ensure that Constitution remains valid at all costs. And IF it is suspended for any reason, THAT is the moment to revolt.

Double post.

Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein
reply to post by Artorius

 

I don't think we hear too much about it because of more important topics.....Off the top of my head...JAPAN....WAR IN LYBIA......EARTHQUAKES AROUND THE WORLD......Just to name a few, a little cival war in Africa is not on the top of anyones mind right now....Sorry

Good job buddy, you know the war in Libya is in Africa. HAha talking smack, ignorant as ****.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
For how long? For how long would it be the cure for lazy pleasure seeking Americans?

If enough people realize what all is wrong and why it needs to be changed in the first place, I don't think it would be an issue. I've seen enough corruption up and down all the major institutions even from a distance to not trust anything any of them do anymore. I'm just saying I think it's definitely within the realm of possibility.

The uprisings in the Mid East arent what they appear to be. Dont be bedazzled by the press. Look at the FACTS. Which are that Egypt exchanged one military backed dictatorship for another. And when they get their "democracy" it will be no different than the one we have now. Two corporatist puppets to choose from.

Even if that's the case, the US originally backed the president they ousted. We just need to end the two-party system too, and the way families buy themselves into politics.

Originally posted by Skerrako
reply to post by DuceizBack

 

You guys aren't going to do nothing.
I bet half of you haven't even been outside in the last 24 hours.

You got me there......although I lost both my legs in Iraq so I have a pretty good excuse.

You never know who is on these boards, and don't think that U.S. citizens will do nothing forever

Oh no buddy you still have no excuse to sit inside all day and night.

I have many friends who lost limbs in VietNam and have managed to still drive cars and ride motorcycles.

I planted 14 tomato plants yesterday while in my wheel chair. I also feed and water chickens everyday.

My favorite wheel chair is a manual one because I am getting pretty strong in my upper body and it feels good.

The point is there is still much damage I can do in a volitile situation as my triger finger still works just fine.

As far as the topic: I do believe there can not be a peaceful revolution. You are still a valuable asset in this messed up world.

Wait a second...

Your telling me that there is a country where a democratically elected leader is not able to get into office because the previous leader refuses to give up the power, it has turned into an armed conflict, they are killing civilians...

but the UN has not sent in the world police to protect those civilians? So why are we attacking Libya again?

reply to post by bsbray11


I think several things need to happen, one of which you did touch on. We need to reform campaign finance and somehow ensure that advertising time is equal. Because there is no use cutting off the money if corporations can just give them air time for cheap or free. We need to fix how politicians advertise themselves.

Secondly, we need to change the laws regarding corporations. At the very least we need to do away with corporate personhood.

Best case scenario, we need to outlaw the corporate form entirely. No human should be allowed to profit with no personal liability from the actions of a corporation. Especially when said corporations are making loopholes in the law for themselves saying they cannot be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

www.towardfreedom.com...

Last month, Judge José A. Cabranes of the Manhattan-based federal Second Circuit Court of Appeals issued a judicial opinion that sent international lawyers, human rights advocates and African environmental activists reeling. Cabranes ruled that transnational corporations who participate in gross human rights abuses cannot be held responsible for torture, genocide, war crimes and the like because, as corporations, their activities fall outside the jurisdiction of international law. The Pan-African Newswire described the court’s opinion as a corporate licence to kill. Judge Pierre Leval, also of the Second Circuit, issued a dissenting opinion describing the Cabranes ruling as an unprecedented ‘blow to the efforts of international law to protect human rights’.

We do need to act, but we need to ensure our Constitution is protected as we would protect our very life. And that means we need to be oh so careful not to put ourselves in a position where a fake case could be made via the media to the world that the gun happy Americans have lost their mind and gone rogue.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
www.towardfreedom.com...

Last month, Judge José A. Cabranes of the Manhattan-based federal Second Circuit Court of Appeals issued a judicial opinion that sent international lawyers, human rights advocates and African environmental activists reeling. Cabranes ruled that transnational corporations who participate in gross human rights abuses cannot be held responsible for torture, genocide, war crimes and the like because, as corporations, their activities fall outside the jurisdiction of international law. The Pan-African Newswire described the court’s opinion as a corporate licence to kill. Judge Pierre Leval, also of the Second Circuit, issued a dissenting opinion describing the Cabranes ruling as an unprecedented ‘blow to the efforts of international law to protect human rights’.

Judges in America get to set foreign policy by default? I'm not suprised the Pan African Newswire have spoken out against this gross abuse of authority. I hope there are African countries prepared to find a way to sue transnational corporations for corporate manslaughter under British Law.

The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 is a landmark in law. For the first time, companies and organisations can be found guilty of corporate manslaughter as a result of serious management failures resulting in a gross breach of a duty of care.

The Act, which came into force on 6 April 2008, clarifies the criminal liabilities of companies including large organisations where serious failures in the management of health and safety result in a fatality.

www.hse.gov.uk...

reply to post by teapot


Honestly, we need to just outlaw the form. It is designed to ruthlessly seek advantage in anyway possible, and really, the fact that American courts are infected most by this is just happenstance. In time, corporate influence will grow in all governing bodies. It is inevitable. We need to try and stop it while we can. I find it ironic that while everyone has been waiting for machines to become intelligent and try to exterminate humans, we ourselves have deliberately created an immortal, ruthless, amoral artificial life form that has written into its DNA an order to put profit ahead of all things, including human life.

While everyone in wondering how to program machines so they cannot hurt humans we basically have ordered another artificial lifeform to utterly disregard human happiness and life. And, those lifeforms now control a huge percentage of the worlds resources, and have enormous influence over our governments.

How was that a good idea?

What I got from reading that article, OK we have one leader by the name of Laurent Gbagbo who does not want to relinquish power and his group of sheeple.... VS..... Another leader named Alassane Ouattara who is according to the article, "a former prime minister, World Bank official, leader of the opposition and the internationally recognized president-elect represents the aspirations of many Muslim Northerners" and his sheeple, who want to be in power, and he was democratically elected, but since the other side does not seem to agree who really knows on what kind of democratic election went on, or what the people really think.

Especially bringing to light that, from the article they are the worlds largest coca producer and have lots of big coffee plantations. So there is more then a little bit of money and investments involved in that little part of the world, and most likely it's corporate controlled either way, and there all fighting over who gets to # them over, and in which way. And since all leaders have a habit of making lots of promises that they cant keep. It seems that the people/workers are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Which brings to mind this African proverb. "When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers"

reply to post by bsbray11

There is the possibility of a (relatively) peaceful revolution, if enough people demanded it and were determined enough to see it through. Look at what just happened in Egypt.

Demanded what kind of revolution though? From what I see from the political right (Not the leadership, but those whos political leanings are on the right) is that they want to take back this country from brown people. For some reason, they don't think that brown people have any right to be Americans. What kind of revolution are we talking about here? If it's a revolution which ends up with the people receiving LESS freedoms, I don't want it.

There are also people on the right who want some sort of Christian Theocracy? Is that the nation that we want to revolt to? These people are so scared of Muslims, that they want to rip up the 1st Amendment just so that they can ensure that Muslims don't have any right to worship.

Doing nothing, and wanting to do nothing, when there are obviously some problems here, is even more cowardly imo. The whole reason the US even exists is because a lot of people with more backbone than most today were pissed off about excessive taxes. Imagine that.

It wasn't excessive tax that they were protesting against, it was the taxation without representation. The problem today is that the TEA Party wants the super rich like the Koch brothers to pay NO taxes whatsoever and they think this is sound fiscal policy, they want to cut spending, but cut spending on things that help people without cutting any spending on the military.

These people want to revolt because the super rich tell them that they should. They are being led around like sheep, and they don't know it.

Originally posted by whatukno
Demanded what kind of revolution though? From what I see from the political right (Not the leadership, but those whos political leanings are on the right) is that they want to take back this country from brown people.

That's politics, and racist politics at that. It's something that belongs in the past.

If there was the organization I'm talking about in the US, there would have to be some underlying philosophy which may well also be new. I would like to think no republican or democrat would be popular (or competent) enough to take the reigns of such a movement, especially when it's becoming apparent that less and less people are buying into the two-party system either.

It wasn't excessive tax that they were protesting against, it was the taxation without representation. The problem today is that the TEA Party wants the super rich like the Koch brothers to pay NO taxes whatsoever and they think this is sound fiscal policy

The Tea Party completely irrelevant, but this is a bunch of bullocks anyway. This perception of yours is thanks to the two-party system, and is propaganda. I remember MSM even admitting in the early days of the "Tea Party" that it was a grass-roots movement with NO formal organization or message. It was just the organization of a bunch of dis-satisfied/pissed off Americans. But just like something out of Sun Tzu, the MSM and two-party politicians were soon enough posing as leaders of the "Tea Party" just to have it shot down by their own stupidity. That's why we can't bring demonstrations anywhere even near their political and media circus. It has to be "closer to the heart" as they say and not distracted by political rhetoric, and more determined, but all that takes is just to piss the American people off some more, raise food prices or rent or whatever needs to happen to have the TV shut off.


Whatever happens, we would be going up against a bunch of obscenely wealthy powers hellbent on keeping their power and influence over us, regardless of what anyone else wants, and they'll be clever and do all kinds of underhanded psychological things. So we have to be even more clever. If something happened it couldn't just be some haphazard assembly and no one knowing exactly what to do. We need real, natural grassroots leaders, and we would need a real plan of action. I'm hoping these things will arise naturally as the need and desire by the American people also rises, but I guess we'll see how it all plays out at the end of the day.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Best case scenario, we need to outlaw the corporate form entirely. No human should be allowed to profit with no personal liability from the actions of a corporation. Especially when said corporations are making loopholes in the law for themselves saying they cannot be prosecuted for crimes against humanity.

I'm all for that.


All laws are only for the moment, because history shows they are constantly changing.

We shouldn't be afraid to implement what may seem like a harsh law on businesses or government entities, because it's their job to serve us in the first place and if they accept the honor of such a job, they shouldn't expect anyone to have pity on their misuse of the position in accordance with the people themselves. Whether government or big business/industry, it's not ultimately just for them and their glory and their pockets, but for the well-being of everyone, and that mentality has to be as firmly entrenched in American minds as the 2nd amendment if we want to be able to effectively exercise power over the institutions that are now totally out of control in this country.

The current system basically just needs to be dragged under a bus until it's lost its will to dominate us, is the bottom line. Through whatever restrictions and other laws that may require.