What should a soldier do?

Greetings everybody.

I have a question about military order and am looking for any ex service members (or current) that know of military standards and procedure.

My question is relevant to many threads and issues I have been seeing pop up from the war in Afghanistan and the morals of our troops and commanding class.

The question is what exactly should a soldier do if given orders from a commanding officer(s) to enact violence and/or kill civilians...what exactly could a soldier do if given orders like this and he believes it is the right thing to disobey? Who should he go to? What should be said?

I am completely unfamiliar with most military affairs and would appreciate any response to the subject...

Mods if this is in the wrong forum please move it...I would just like to educate myself and possibly others on this type of thing should you or I ever choose to join the military and be exposed to such a situation

reply to post by here4awhile


Well, I have never been in the army but from what I can tell from the Nuremburg trials, and various other war crimes trials and tribunals since, when it comes to crimes against humanity, "Just following orders" is not an acceptable defence.

reply to post by here4awhile


Well, I have never been in the army but from what I can tell from the Nuremburg trials, and various other war crimes trials and tribunals since, when it comes to crimes against humanity, "Just following orders" is not an acceptable defence.

My husband was in the army and he said that a soldier does not have to follow an order that is criminal.
Now, I don't know what would happen if they didn't obey.
I hope this helps.

Honestly all I can say is that it depends on the circumstances and what you are willing to do. Even though you should be able to deny an unlawful order, you can still be "accidentally" caught in the crossfire too. Are you willing to kill an innocent to save your own life, or loose your life for refusing, commit treason or flee as a deserter. Brother if you ever find yourself in that situation you have my sympathies, I was fortunate to not have been placed in that position. Hopefully one of our brothers or sisters can help you, I wish I could.

reply to post by here4awhile


The question is what exactly should a soldier do if given orders from a commanding officer(s) to enact violence and/or kill civilians...


Shoot the commanding officer and claim Fratricide...sh!t happens.

If a service truly believes that an order is unlawful, he/she has the right to disobey the order.

However, he needs to report it and be able to back it up.

Additionally, if someone is giving an unlawful order (such as the examples you cited), they may attempt to coerce/harm anyone who doesn't go along, so it could be dangerous for the service member who chooses not to obey.

Probably the best thing to do would be to report it to the person senior to the person who issued the unlawful order (if possible), and also to the local JAG or IG as well. For those who fear for their safety, sending a letter out to someone they trust, "in case something happens to me", might be in order as well.

Sucks to be put in that position, but sometimes it happens.

Disobey and possibly end up like Pat Tillman. Or obey and end up on trial.

Tricky stuff, especially since unlawful is different from immoral. Here's one generic definition from here.

Anything that is against the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC), the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), American Federal Law, and the Geneeva Conventions, and possibly local laws. This includes, but is not limited to, failing to attempt to stop unlawful actions and being ordered not to report unlawful actions that you have wittnessed.

For example, a superior officer orders you to fire on a church that has not displayed any hostile actions (such as firing at anyone, or harboring the enemy). That would be an unlawful order which you would be compelled to disobey.

In practice, though, things are a little more complicated. In the terrible My Lai massacre during Vietnam Lt. William Calley was given an "order" by his Captain. It was, "You know what to do." There was no actual order. Of course, the whole thing was blatantly unlawful, immoral, and many other words you could throw at it, but it shows you the weasel way these things can happen.

Now we have an interesting act going on at the national level. Both Biden and Obama stated previously that it was an impeachable offense to go to war without the consent of Congress. Both of them are on record as saying this. Now that Obama has 'gone ot war' neither one of them are suggesting Obama should be impeached, though Kucinich has said so very loudly.

reply to post by here4awhile


the answer depends on your morality.
a.) put a bullet in the c.o.
b.) refuse order, report to adjutant's office or PMO.
c.) carry out order, as it will surely improve your promotion chances/choice of duty station.
d.) request mast to higher authority
e.) personally stroll into base general's office, they always are interested in this kind of thing.

Don't expect a fair trial
the system is corupt
this is not about rights
it is about might
whistle blowers get a rough ride

Remember when Obama thought the troops
ought to pay for their own health care and rehabilitation..
after all
they volunteered
they knew the risks...


all I can say is
I would think
like a soldier

thank you for the reply's everybody, it's appreciated...it saddens me to see that when such issues arise there doesn't seem to be a great way to get the commanding officer in trouble...and even if he does get in trouble, then what? A slap on the wrist and a desk job for a year?

reply to post by here4awhile


Check this out:

www.constitution.org...

The long and short of it is that a member of the military is expected to obey lawful orders, and to disobey unlawful orders.

In fact, if a soldier or officer is given an order he knows is unlawful, that person is required to disobey those orders, or charges may brought against not only the person giving the order, but that person carrying out the order.

There is little or no defense anymore in the idea that "I was only following orders" removes culpability from the person carrying out the unlawful order. Eichmann learned that at Nuremberg.

If it was to become necessary to disobey such an order, though I've never seen it, I would say that soldier should come to attention and very respectfully recite some thing like this:

"Sir. I believe that order to be unlawful therefor I can not obey that order, sir."

Like I said, I've never seen it; a lot of senior officers tend to get real good at doing CYA, and wouldn't touch anything close to such an order.

reply to post by here4awhile


I was in the army...actually intended to join, but left after basic training as it's full of psychos.

I don't really know but I got 2 disciplinary charges. One for disobeying an order and one for showing up too late and not calling in. That second one, was a little more serious, 2 more of those and I could've been looking at a potential lawsuit and jailtime for desertation. The first one they just slapped on me cause they didn't like me.

My advice: Don't join the army.

You're basically an Inmate at the mercy of your superior officers.

If you don't join into any rank of the military
you will not have to kill humans, best solution
IMO. Why kill for TPTB, they could care less
about you as a person or a soldier - its all in
the power they have to call others out to
do their bidding and fill their bank vaults!

The deal is..... When you join the Military you signed a "contract" and took an oath to defend the Consitution of the USA. You do not however have to follow an "unlawfull order." Really though it is left to what heat you, as Mr. and Ms. So and so, is willing to take. Problem is, the military missions extend beyond the "protecting the constitution and defending the USA" You are more or less a pawn in a global chess game. You are just a body to be a sand bag for whatever makes the bankers and politicians a dollar. If you are given an "unlawful order" and you question it, you will be asked if your a lawyer. Best thing, is to not join the military if you don't want to do dirty deeds, dirt cheap.

SSG. US Army (ret.)

*fires weapons* Geez, my aim on those civilians is REALLY bad today! Oh, no, they're all getting away! Sorry sir, I tried my best!

Originally posted by superwurzel666
reply to post by here4awhile

 

Well, I have never been in the army but from what I can tell from the Nuremburg trials, and various other war crimes trials and tribunals since, when it comes to crimes against humanity, "Just following orders" is not an acceptable defence.

You'd think so, right? Unfortunately, it was only an unacceptable defense because the Nazis lost that war. When you're the winning side, you can get away with "Just following orders."

Really, if the Nuremburg standard held, the Hague would be packed with French Paratroopers, US and british politicians, and Iraqi guardsmen.

Non EA military, anyway use the free will given to you by GOD. He watches and sees who listens and who still follow not their own free will. GOOD LUCK !