Japan Nuclear Meltdown Confirmed

Originally posted by XtraTL

Originally posted by artistpoet
It has the potential to be 1000 greater than the Chernbyl disaster.

Absolute rubbish!

Chernobyl's reactor *core* exploded. The Chernobyl reactor also contained large quantities of graphite which caught fire spewing radioactive material into the atmosphere. The containment vessel was also constructed badly, allowing the concrete cover of the containment to blow off.

Also the reactors in Japan were successfully shut down shortly after the quake.

How many times do we have to keep repeating it. A disaster on the scale of Chernobyl is NOT possible with this kind of reactor in this situation.

It works like this. The core of these reactors needs to be covered in water at all times. We know that this wasn't happening (and may still not be happening) due to the power problems at the plant from the earthquake and tsunami.

The extreme heat in the reactor due to the lack of cooling causes the uranium/plutonium core to melt. This is called a meltdown. The fuel (which is metalic) literally melts. The release of hydrogen, cesium and iodine confirms that a partial meltdown has occurred. Of course more water has been pumped into the core and there is a continuous battle to keep the core cool so that the situation doesn't become worse.

The nuclear fuel rods are clad in zirconium (a kind of metal sheath). At very high temperature, zirconium reacts with water and causes the zirconium to oxidize (the oxygen from the water attaches to the zirconium metal) releasing hydrogen gas from the water (recall water is H20, i.e. hydrogen and oxygen).

Due to the buildup of hydrogen gas, the reactor containment vessel had to be vented. Dangerous quantities of hydrogen built up which then exploded, blowing the top off the reactor building, but did not blow up the primary containment vessel, which is where the nuclear reactor core is.

Since that time sea water has been pumped into the reactor containment vessel in a desperate bid to keep the core cool.

Even though the reactor is shut down (the control rods were fully inserted into the nuclear pile to stop the nuclear reaction that normally occurs when the plant is generating electricity) the previously decayed uranium (which is not uranium any more but other things that uranium has decayed into, such as cesium, iodine and others) is still radioactive. It takes days or even weeks for these decay products to finish their decay into stabler less radioactive isotopes. Whilst this process continues heat is still generated by the core.

The fear is that if the reactor cannot be sufficiently cooled for long enough that the core will melt entirely and eventually melt through the containment vessel itself, resulting in a massive release of radioactive material into the surrounding environment. However, an explosion of the kind that occurred at Chernobyl is NOT possible.

No radioactive clouds over the US. No massive worldwide extinction level event.

How many threads are we gonna have on ATS about something which is NOT possible. It's like claiming you found a 15kg steel ball in your cereal packet. It just can't happen.

Lol. Chernobyl's reactor did not explode, nuke reactors dont explode, they meltdown. And the reactors did not shut down, they are still going. Your seem very misinformed my friend.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Just remember coal is bad, what you want more than anything is clean nuclear energy!

Safe and affordable, and when we say safe we mean safe.

Now I know you all feel not just safer, but safe, so move along please nothing to see here.

My exact thoughts. This is much better than dirty coal. One incident could kill and sicken more people in 6 months than coal has in the last 100 years.

reply to post by stormy01399


Yes. But it's not 10,000s. Again, far better than one would expect for a 100m+ population on an island that just moved 8 feet.

reply to post by JRCrowley


Why shouldn't you be prepared for the worst?

reply to post by pepsi78


No, it means that a part of the reactor probably cracked but the unit in question remains in tact. I'd expect some damage. 9.1 earthquake remember. But if it is not melted down now it's not going to be.

Refer to this diagram

wiki.chemprime.chemeddl.org...

reply to post by XtraTL

Cernobyl was only one reactor, also we don't know the power of the reactors, so if a total meltdown happens then yes it may be another cernobyl. The problem with Japan is that it's an island on the ocean, air currents are stronger than cernobyl area. I for one would be reserved until this is over. Ohh nothing is going to happen it's fine, that is just ....

Originally posted by HINESRILEY
Hi Everyone- First-Time Post here- long time watcher of ATS. I will be brief.

Concerning a possible meltdown of the Nuclear Plants:
Is there some sort of expanding spray concrete/foam/epoxy that can be injected into the containment building- to assist trapping and containing the radioactive steam and particulates? Obviously, the incredible heat is an issue- but they use foam( in jet accidents, for example) for fires. Again- containment is the key, simply preventing/reducing it's inevitable escapment into the atmosphere.

Hi HINESRILEY, welcome to ATS.

I sort of answered this question before you asked it but this is a fast moving thread so you may have missed my post:

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by backinblack
Why would they ask Russia ?
Russia doesn't exactly have a great record on nuclear incidents..

They have experience dealing with containment of an accident. This might be why?

news.yahoo.com...

If the reactor core became exposed to the external environment, officials would likely began pouring cement and sand over the entire facility, as was done at the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear accident in the Ukraine, Peter Bradford, a former commissioner of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said in a briefing for reporters.

So it's a last resort to do in Japan what they did in Chernobyl, just entomb the site in concrete. But if it gets too hot and melts through the floor of the containment vessel, then just pouring concrete over the top won't solve that problem, also known as "The China Syndrome" when referring to US reactors.

I expect that if they want to entomb the site, regular concrete is preferred over any expanding type with lower density because the higher density material would create a better entombment.

They need to do everything they can to slow down the meltdown before entombing it though. So far it doesn't look like that's the plan but it could get worse.

Originally posted by Draken
Lol. Chernobyl's reactor did not explode, nuke reactors dont explode, they meltdown. And the reactors did not shut down, they are still going. Your seem very misinformed my friend.

Chernobyl did explode. It is you who is misinformed. It was a massive steam explosion which was caused by the fact that Chernobyl was NOT shut down due to jamming of the control rods. This did NOT happen in Japan. The control rods HAVE been inserted, and thus by definition the reactors HAVE been shut down.

Nuclear reactors don't explode due to a nuclear explosion, like a nuclear weapon, if that is what you mean.

reply to post by Draken


I gotta say, when I read your post, and read XtraTL's post, XtraTL's is not the one that comes across as misinformed. Read up about the Chernobyl here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Very clearly details the explosions, and the graphite fire contributing to the spread of radiation. Don't mean to rain on everybody's doom and gloom parade, I know it's so much more fun to get all freaked out. We just got off a scary ride with the gulf oil spill, which according to many was going to be the end of the world. On to the next doomsday scenario..

reply to post by 27jd

Yes reagarding the reactors, it's almost as they want the reactors to melt down or explode for the show, so they have something to talk about on ATS.

Hmmm those intresting reactors...I can't wait for updates until they explode or melt down...ohhh please please tell me they are going to melt.....

To me it would seem it's just like porn...that is "nuke porn"
My regards to the people of Japan, it is a tragedy.

reply to post by pepsi78


Exactly. We go through this with every disaster that occurs, it's always a government conspiracy that will eventually spread to the entire world and wipe out everything. There are real conspiracies, of course. But they usually involve a few old bastards getting rich off the misery of others. Infowars is one of the main tabloids on the internet, but the mainstream media doesn't help much either. Just watching CNN the past couple days they have the headlines plastered all over about nuclear meltdowns, keeping people glued to the TV waiting to be told where to get their iodine tablets. It is serious for the people who live near the reactors, of course. But the media loves to hint that it could be coming to your town. Seems to me Japan had a couple of real nuclear explosions, in which radiation was blasted into the atmosphere, and that didn't float over to the states. Not to mention the radiation from all the nuclear tests we've performed here in the states and elsewhere.

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by 27jd

 

Yes reagarding the reactors, it's almost as they want the reactors to melt down or explode for the show, so they have something to talk about on ATS.

Hmmm those intresting reactors...I can't wait for updates until they explode or melt down...ohhh please please tell me they are going to melt.....

To me it would seem it's just like porn...that is "nuke porn"
My regards to the people of Japan, it is a tragedy.

edit on 13-3-2011 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

Oh for God's sake. If that's the perception you have of some of the ATS members then why are you here?

I come to ATS for opinion and analysis that is not afforded through the MSM. The MSM has proven itself to be incompetent for the most part, and at times, clearly dishonest or at least deceitful.

I will listen to all sides, all opinions and will discount no one's commentary until it is absolutely proven one way or another.

If you think some posters are treating this as "nuke porn", it is clearly you who has a serious perception problem.

As far as being skeptical of news coming out of Japan, the actual area in discussion, this would be PRUDENT. They have a history of lying about nuclear accidents.

Read up on the Wiki if you don't believe me.

Japan's nuclear industry was not hit as hard by the effects of the Three Mile Island accident (TMI) or the Chernobyl disaster as some other countries. Construction of new plants continued to be strong through the 1980s, 1990s, and up to the present day. However, starting in the mid-1990s there were several nuclear related accidents and cover-ups in Japan that eroded public perception of the industry, resulting in protests and resistance to new plants. These accidents included the Tokaimura nuclear accident, the Mihama steam explosion, cover-ups after an accidents at the Monju reactor, among others, more recently the Chūetsu offshore earthquake aftermath. While exact details may be in dispute, it is clear that the safety culture in Japan's nuclear industry has come under greater scrutiny.[1] Canceled plant orders include:

* The Maki NPP at Maki, Niigata (Kambara) - Canceled in 2003
* The Kushima NPP at Kushima, Miyazaki - 1997
* The Ashihama NPP at Ashihama, Mie - 2000
* The Hōhoku NPP at Hōhoku, Yamaguchi - 1994
* The Suzu NPP at Suzu, Ishikawa - 2003


en.wikipedia.org...

In the event of a total meltdown if it comes here I'm afraid we are unprepared as a Nation
I just took this video from the archives of Friday's FDA Budget Hearing.
I happened to catch wind of our level of preparedness in the event of exposure to all manner of nasty threats including "acute radiological poisoning".
Peggy Hamburg Head of the FDA
March 11, 2011
@ 5:00
"We do not have the treatment for acute radiological poisoning..."

reply to post by Gorman91


You really are impossible to communicate with.

Japanese Nuclear Reactors are melting down. This happens when their cooling of the Rods fails.

The only conspiracy I see is you saying there is nothing wrong untill you have proof there is something wrong. Going on the 4th day of proof now arn't we....Have a nice day Mike S out!

Originally posted by JRCrowley
Oh for God's sake. If that's the perception you have of some of the ATS members then why are you here?

Because there are other members who do have interesting insight, and are level headed. All the chicken littles start to become annoying though, especially since they are wrong, time and time again. And I've been here alot longer than you have, we're all members of ATS, you can take a hike too, if you don't like logic and level headedness. There are other sites that may be better for you.

I will listen to all sides, all opinions and will discount no one's commentary until it is absolutely proven one way or another.

Ah, but you have no problem questioning why somebody is here because you don't agree with them?

If you think some posters are treating this as "nuke porn", it is clearly you who has a serious perception problem.

How is that? Because many completely disregard anybody that tries to come along and say, this probably isn't going to be the end of the world, again...and accuse them of spreading misinformation, when in the end, it always turns out NOT to be the end of the world, and they're on to the next doomsday scenario. There are MANY people on this site and others that are fear junkies.

They have a history of lying about nuclear accidents.

I'm sure they do, but how many times have those accidents contaminated the rest of the world? They just don't want the Japanese public to turn on nuclear energy, and demand they use safer forms of energy, because that will cut into bank accounts of many rich men there. Just like the oil spill here. But those accidents, as tragic as they are for the local population, have not resulted in the end of the world, or massive spread of radiation outside a localized area.

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by Draken

 

I gotta say, when I read your post, and read XtraTL's post, XtraTL's is not the one that comes across as misinformed. Read up about the Chernobyl here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Very clearly details the explosions, and the graphite fire contributing to the spread of radiation. Don't mean to rain on everybody's doom and gloom parade, I know it's so much more fun to get all freaked out. We just got off a scary ride with the gulf oil spill, which according to many was going to be the end of the world. On to the next doomsday scenario..

Yes but the reactor didn't not explode from nuclear material, it was the build up of pressure, which WAS happening in japan.
All im saying is you can say this is nothing like Chernobyl. Its the exact same thing, the same thing could of happened.

reply to post by Draken


It may happen or it may not happen... I hope none of the ATSers changed their daily plan to go about and do what they need to do and go hid in their bunker.

Talking about bunkers .. do you think the people that have bunkers are there now?
Would people in their bunkers be better off in such huge quakes and tsunamis?

reply to post by mikeybiznaz


Well yes. 4 days. If it had melted down, it would certainly be obvious by now. As you can see from aforementioned diagram, what broke? Was it the pipe? The actual core? Or the systems around it. Any number could have broken and released some radiation. This does not mean a total meltdown. It means something broke.

For example, on a boat, if you have a whole and you're taking on water, you fix the whole. If you have a scar the size of a large commuter bus, you're kind of f'd. The same thing shows the same water coming through. but by how much? Radiation levels were over 1000x normal levels but then went down. Clearly something was bad, but now is no longer.

Is this impossible to get or communicate with? If so, enjoy your panic. I will remain in my stoic cool. No one ever lived longer from panic or worry.

Originally posted by Draken
All im saying is you can say this is nothing like Chernobyl. Its the exact same thing, the same thing could of happened.

It can't be the exact same thing, because it's a different kind of reactor. The Japanese are much more safety conscious than the Russians, and pretty much anybody else.

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by JRCrowley
Oh for God's sake. If that's the perception you have of some of the ATS members then why are you here?

Because there are other members who do have interesting insight, and are level headed. All the chicken littles start to become annoying though, especially since they are wrong, time and time again. And I've been here alot longer than you have, we're all members of ATS, you can take a hike too, if you don't like logic and level headedness. There are other sites that may be better for you.

I will listen to all sides, all opinions and will discount no one's commentary until it is absolutely proven one way or another.

Ah, but you have no problem questioning why somebody is here because you don't agree with them?

If you think some posters are treating this as "nuke porn", it is clearly you who has a serious perception problem.

How is that? Because many completely disregard anybody that tries to come along and say, this probably isn't going to be the end of the world, again...and accuse them of spreading misinformation, when in the end, it always turns out NOT to be the end of the world, and they're on to the next doomsday scenario. There are MANY people on this site and others that are fear junkies.

They have a history of lying about nuclear accidents.

I'm sure they do, but how many times have those accidents contaminated the rest of the world? They just don't want the Japanese public to turn on nuclear energy, and demand they use safer forms of energy, because that will cut into bank accounts of many rich men there. Just like the oil spill here. But those accidents, as tragic as they are for the local population, have not resulted in the end of the world, or massive spread of radiation outside a localized area.

(Snip) . No one is claiming that this might be the "end of the world". What a completely asinine thing to say. Just stop it already. Stop it. It's tiring and annoying to the nth degree.

As far as your silly comment "how many times have those accidents contaminated the rest of the world?" the answer is NONE. But there's a first for everything so wake the f up and prepare yourself, because that first time is coming.

Last thing: I DO NOT HAVE A problem with anyone questioning me. It is YOU who has a problem with people questioning the MSM "facts.

You seem proud of how long you've been here at ATS - ohhh such a veteran - but you'd think with such great experience (/sarcasm) you would have learned by now that people have differing opinions, and that all opinions should be respected.

Get a grip, man.

Originally posted by 27jd
reply to post by Draken

 

I gotta say, when I read your post, and read XtraTL's post, XtraTL's is not the one that comes across as misinformed. Read up about the Chernobyl here:

en.wikipedia.org...

Very clearly details the explosions, and the graphite fire contributing to the spread of radiation. Don't mean to rain on everybody's doom and gloom parade, I know it's so much more fun to get all freaked out. We just got off a scary ride with the gulf oil spill, which according to many was going to be the end of the world. On to the next doomsday scenario..

It's not helping much that there's so much misinformation out there.

Not saying it's happening here on ATS, but there's actually groups of people out there deliberately fabricating material and some of this has even been picked up by unsuspecting press. I don't understand the motivation. Is it for kicks. Are these organisations funded by governments or is it just like you say, people like a bit of sensationalism.

A few other things are contributing to the confusion. The media is picking the most sensational bits from tidbits they are receiving and repeating them over and over, long after they are no longer a concern. Some outlets are deliberately not reporting the more mundane or even good news and simply repeating out of date bad news. I don't know what the motivation is here.

For example, who here heard that venting at Fukushima Daini 1, 2 and 4 reactors did not occur as reported in the press and that these reactors retain power? What about the state of emergency declared at the Oganawa plant? Did anyone hear from the press yet that the lowest state of emergency was declared due to measurement of radiation but that this has now returned to background levels and is presumed to have been due to detection of radiation from the nearby Fukushima Daichi plants?

The other thing that is happening is that a handful of so-called nuclear experts are making shocking statements to the press, which the press is naturally lapping up. Again, the press is taking the absolute worst of the speculation and repeating it as fact. I saw one example about a day ago where a news outlet got a physicist on and told him live that the core was exposed by 9 feet. He was shocked and said if that was true then the situation was critical. They then asked him to speculate on what might happen, based on this information. He'd been unable to access any media reports himself for 90 minutes and so didn't know that this was old news being repeated. It was no longer the case, as sea water had since been pumped in as we've all heard by now. Since that time the media repeated over and over what the guy had speculated based on the incorrect information they fed him. I don't believe that the MSM didn't know exactly what they were doing here.

Finally, there are also some misunderstandings based on semantics. Some people are insisting on calling the Japanese accident a meltdown. Whilst it is a meltdown of sorts, it is partial. A full meltdown would likely breach the containment, triggering a full scale environmental disaster in the region. Let's hope that doesn't happen. But so far it hasn't happened. For that reason, some experts have been cautious about calling it a meltdown. Rather they are calling it a partial meltdown. Worse could still be to come. There's also some confusion about the types of explosions that can occur at nuclear plants.

The most ridiculous thing about Chernobyl is Russia tried to cover it up. People only knew about it because physicists measured massive quantities of radiation blowing in the wind over Europe. Imagine the stupidity that leads to a government thinking they can cover up a massive nuclear reactor explosion which dumped massive quantities of radioactive material all over the countryside and into the atmosphere.

People have a right to be concerned about governments lying and covering things up. However, the radiation near the Japanese facilities is being monitored very carefully. The media is consistently repeating the highest measurements and not the current measurements and neglecting to explain what any of the measurements mean, leaving it to people to just fear that a massive environmental release of radiatioactive material has occurred.

At a hospital 3.5 miles from the nuclear plant, 90 people were evacuated. Of these 3 required decontamination (a shower and change of clothes) but did not receive health threatening doses of radiation.

It's clear there's been some environmental contamination at very low levels. But the media are continuing to allow people to imagine that the whole area is now highly radioactive or something.

Thanks for the explanation concerning the reactors.I wasn't sure how it worked but now I'm sure.

Since they are shut down the rods are still hot and will cause a melt down if they are not cooled properly.

The only thing that we should be worried about is the radiation that would be spewed into the air from the melt down.

Maybe they could control the destination of the radiation?I don't know if that's possible but I'm sure they could come up with something.You would think they would have thought of this when building the reactors.