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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Golden Boy
What you're failing to understand, in all of your arguments, is that you are extending the invalidation of a claim to invalidate something else.
Your observation that Bob didn't show up merely invalidated your claim that he would.
You can argue all day about one thing or another in scripture, but you're apparently oblivious of a glaring hole in your argument. God is not defined by anything in the Bible. God is what he is. If some aspect of the description of him isn't valid, that means nothing, apart from the description being wrong.
You cannot make an absolute conclusion which is based on non-absolute observations. I really don't understand why you don't get that.
Originally posted by NOTurTypical
How am I being dishonest? That's quite rude to assert.
Of course every statement of the sort I made is under the obvious assumption, as is pretty much any other statement made by an individual in this manner, that there is the implied addendum "That I am aware of".
You cannot speak for others Madness, but if you hold the belief that your knowledge is limited on the issue I can agree with that.
Stop being childish with such silly questions.
I don't consider the question childish.
You and anyone else is capable of saying whether or not God exists.
And to purposefully word the reply as a negative position lacks integrity IMHO because the person making the statement knows full well for them to claim the positive means their belief would be illogical.
You do realize that I actively seek the possibility of evidence of the existence of deities, right?
Actually no I don't, it's been my experience with you that you routinely refuse to review presented materials.
Your common response is that you don't have the time in your schedule to do so.
The idea sounds nice when you make the statement, but I have yet seen you demonstrate it when I've presented you with materials to actually review.
I'm actually going out there and asking other people to show me that my atheism is incorrect.
That's shifting the burden of proof.
But then again, since you refuse to affirm the positive then you really don't need to supply proof now do you?
You can word your response in the negative to make it free from you having to do so, how convenient.
Exodus 20:16 again. The straw man argument is a grave sin according to your own religious text. All statements of the sort I made obviously imply 'to the best of my knowledge'. Stop splitting hairs to create straw men.
I'm not. And furthermore, you haven't shown that I have done so, just asserted I have.
Of course, it's not the most limited knowledge.
It certainly is limited knowledge compared to omniscience, which is one attribute required to assert the non-existence of God. The point I'm making actually.
I've examined every Earthly claim that I've come across and there has yet to be a verifiable claim of the existence of any deity.
Again, evidence doesn't need to persuade to be logically sound. You know this Madness.
If persuasion was the litmus test for evidence to be sound logically then I can immediately state Evolution has zero evidence since I have not been persuaded by it.
You were repeating yourself and Exodus 20:16. Dishonesty doesn't become you.
Demonstrate my dishonesty then Madness. That's pretty offensive and rude.
It's an unanswerable question.
No, it's not unanswerable. You can certainly tell me your belief on the matter.
One must be omniscient to answer such a question with definitive epistemological certainty.
No objection there.
My personal answer would be irrational and I am not prepared to make a purely irrational statement on the nature of reality.
No objections again, so ask yourself why you purposefully claim the negative position to avoid the obviously irrational stance on God's non-existence.
I do not believe in any deity,..
Finally, so your belief is that no deities exist. Thank you.
but I would gladly do so if presented with the evidence for the existence of any one.
I disagree, you can always fall back on a rescuing device. Persuasion is relative, there are people walking the Earth today who have not been persuaded the Earth revolves the Sun.
I'm going to restate this again in another form: Though I have ventured to seek it, I have yet to encounter sufficient evidence for the existence of any deity.
That's because persuasion is relative. One either has a rational standard or an irrational one.
Do I think your deity exists?
I have a lack of belief in His non-existence.
Well, I have no good reason to accept your positive claim that it does.
No, don't you see that I refuse to make a positive claim, therefore I'm free from providing evidence for my beliefs?
And why are you singling out your deity?
Only my deity can account for the preconditions of intelligibility and the uniformity of nature. Others cannot because their natures are not presented as such.
There are millions of others that I'm rejecting as well, most far older than your desert deity.
What is your rational reason for rejecting the others? Absence of evidence is only evidence of absence if you're an omniscient and omnipresent entity.
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Golden Boy
With that in mind, we still have to accept we can't prove a source/creator deity.
.
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Golden Boy
You can answer all the typical stock arguments for a deity ( as you have) but they are not considered as reasonable nor logical arguments in the eyes of the faithful.
This is what separates the two worldviews. There can be no reasoning for a God other than subjective experience
or looking to scripture made by men who were ignorant of many things that science has uncovered since.
With that in mind, we still have to accept we can't prove a source/creator deity.
Originally posted by ItsMeCB
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Golden Boy
With that in mind, we still have to accept we can't prove a source/creator deity.
.
True It can not be proven but can not be disproven either
Originally posted by Golden Boy
Originally posted by adjensenYou cannot make an absolute conclusion which is based on non-absolute observations. I really don't understand why you don't get that.
I'm not. I really don't understand why you don't get that.
The Biblical God is the god who performed all the actions described in the Bible. That god does not exist, because those actions were not performed.
Originally posted by Golden Boy
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Golden Boy
You can answer all the typical stock arguments for a deity ( as you have) but they are not considered as reasonable nor logical arguments in the eyes of the faithful.
They're not considered reasonable or logical by anyone who understands reason or logic. Neither are any of the other arguments for God's existence.
Originally posted by adjensen
Originally posted by Golden Boy
Originally posted by adjensenYou cannot make an absolute conclusion which is based on non-absolute observations. I really don't understand why you don't get that.
I'm not. I really don't understand why you don't get that.
Yes, you are:
The Biblical God is the god who performed all the actions described in the Bible. That god does not exist, because those actions were not performed.
Absolute conclusion: "That god does not exist"
Non-absolute observation: "those actions were not performed"
For your "Red Sea" example, have you consulted with the author of Exodus to determine whether the text we have now is the same as what he wrote?
Barring doing those three things, your observation that it did not happen is not based on absolute observations, they are your opinion, based on other people's opinions.
Never mind that, by allowing for a supernatural being, you allow for supernatural influences on natural events -- in your Bob example (whom you've yet to disprove the existence of,) by allowing Bob to be omnipotent, you allow him the ability of wiping the memory of his appearance from your memory, so your subjective claim that you didn't see him doesn't mean anything.
I'm not a fundamentalist, so I don't personally believe it, but disprove the claim that the Earth was created a few thousand years ago, with all evidence of the billions of years of existence created "in place".
Heck, prove that the Universe wasn't created twenty minutes ago, with all your memories, and everything that leads you to believe that it wasn't, implanted in your brain upon said creation.
Regardless, as I said, God is not defined by the text
Originally posted by Golden Boy
No. An absolute conclusion would be no god exists. My conclusion is that the god which is defined as having performed those actions does not exist.
absolute (ˈæbsəˌluːt)
—adj
1. complete; perfect
2. free from limitations, restrictions, or exceptions; unqualified: an absolute choice
3. having unlimited authority; despotic: an absolute ruler
4. undoubted; certain: the absolute truth
source
Barring doing those three things, your observation that it did not happen is not based on absolute observations, they are your opinion, based on other people's opinions.
Nonsense.
If I say that there was no 9.5 earthquake this morning, it isn't opinion. It's fact. There was no 9.5 earthquake here this morning. Therefore, any definition of "god" which requires that there was a 9.5 earthquake this morning is disproven.
Redefinition games aside, if you want to define your god as a god which leaves no evidence of its actions, fine; I admit that it can't be disproven. But I never argued that all gods could be disproven, so I don't really see the point of your objection.
I would like to point out that a god that works in this way leaves us absolutely no reason at all to believe that it exists. Not only is the god not making itself apparent to us, it is going out of its way to conceal its existence. Why believe?
Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by adjensen
You wrote:
["Then your argument is based on faulty assumptions, because you're attempting to use mortal qualities to assuage the divine."]
By introducing an element of 'higher magic' (I don't mean anything derogatory by that expression) ANY position can be 'validated'.
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Golden Boy
You can answer all the typical stock arguments for a deity ( as you have) but they are not considered as reasonable nor logical arguments in the eyes of the faithful.
This is what separates the two worldviews. There can be no reasoning for a God other than subjective experience or looking to scripture made by men who were ignorant of many things that science has uncovered since.
With that in mind, we still have to accept we can't prove a source/creator deity.
Again, i think this is a dishonest argument from ignorance that is formed by no reasonable or logical means.
A scientist will never make up a hypothesis and then expect everyone else to prove him wrong.
Anyone can do that, Even I can do that:
"Invisible unicorns are everywhere"
"There's a teapot buried in my garden, i havn't even verified my claim"
"The universe is infinite"
"The afterlife is just a sea of jam"
it's dishonest, it's just a pseudo-scientific conjuring trick.