Flotilla Commandoes: Armed mob lynched us

reply to post by Eliad


i cant really argue against that potentially being true, and it may well be but i would think/hope that most of the people on the aid ship where there to help out the people of gaza and maybe thought that it might make good publicity if they were stopped by the israeli forces.
i would very much doubt that they expected or anticipated what ended up happening.

reply to post by backinblack

Not all the facts support Israel's view of events either..

Exactly. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in the middle...

I will watch the vid though I have probably already seen it. However, how do we know what we hear is the first shoot? Even you say the film is not complete..

Film is complete and uncut during those critical moments of boarding.. We can't be sure it's the first shot, you hear a bang that sounds like a gun... And then after a few minutes you hear bangs that sound like an Uzi firing.. Start at 30 something minutes, when the boats are approaching.

I'm extremely subjective though, as I can simply not believe the IDF fired at those people prior to boarding, I just can't.. Even if it's shown without a doubt I'll have a hard time fathoming it..

reply to post by Resurrectio

But you and I both know your post was only meant to somehow some twisted may defend the "unarmed" statement.

Israel does enough crap, no need for people to be exaggerating and fabricating negative things about them.

Some are just confused with the term "armed"..

Yes, the activists were "armed" with everyday items you would find on most ships but still considered a weapon when used as such..
The IDF were "armed" with machine guns, pistols, rifles and probably knives also..

It's just the word "armed" as in items with no other use than a weapon or everyday items that could be used as a weapon..

But knowing the Israel and the MSM, If the activists agree they were armed they will be calling them WMD's..

reply to post by lewman


I think most were planning on surrendering.. The whole thing was meant as an act of protest, they weren't really planning on getting into Gaza..

It's the bad seeds that had different plans.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by lewman

 

I think most were planning on surrendering.. The whole thing was meant as an act of protest, they weren't really planning on getting into Gaza..

It's the bad seeds that had different plans.

Hmm, you say in the whole thread you are unsure of events but it does appear you are bias towards the activists having started this...
The intent was stated from the start..
To break the illegal blockade or show the world what Israel really is..
Confiscating much of the film messed that idea up..

Question:

Was the ship unloaded?

What was found on that ship?

The story of food and medicine doesn't wash - they had the choice of offloading at an Egyptian port and having the cargo inspected prior to transport to Gaza, or at an Israeli port.

They didn't want to do the easy, peaceful, logical thing.

They intentionally wanted to provoke.

So they got what they wanted.

What was found on the ship??????

reply to post by backinblack


They started attacking them before their feet hit the deck. I am sure that you saw the video.. It shows them clearly preparing for an attack. If they planned on simply giving up, they would not have readied themselves in such a way.

They had to know that the world was watching, they had to know, if they did not resist, they would not be killed. If their plan was simply to make a point, their plan had a very poor architect.

Originally posted by FarArcher
Question:
Was the ship unloaded?
What was found on that ship?
The story of food and medicine doesn't wash - they had the choice of offloading at an Egyptian port and having the cargo inspected prior to transport to Gaza, or at an Israeli port.
They didn't want to do the easy, peaceful, logical thing.
They intentionally wanted to provoke.
So they got what they wanted.
What was found on the ship??????

Answer: NOTHING illegal was found on the ship.
It contained what the said it contained so you are WRONG on that one..
The activists, like millions around the world including the UN, believe Israel is conducting an illegal blockade and blocking delivery of many goods for no reason..
The banning of everything from chocalate to writing paper is NOT a joke..
It's what Israel does..
The activists NEVER intended to go through Israel's illegal and unwarranted search and seizure processes..
They meant to break the blockade or show the world the EVIL ways of Israel..

It's a shame the world had to AGAIN see the monster that is Israel in action..

That about answer your questions?

Originally posted by Resurrectio
reply to post by backinblack

 

They started attacking them before their feet hit the deck. I am sure that you saw the video.. It shows them clearly preparing for an attack. If they planned on simply giving up, they would not have readied themselves in such a way.

They had to know that the world was watching, they had to know, if they did not resist, they would not be killed. If their plan was simply to make a point, their plan had a very poor architect.

No one seems to know who started the fight..
Some say Israel fired first..
Many say Israel threw flash grenades onto the ship..
The grenades would be enough to make many think they were being attacked..
Israel STILL has the proof with the film they confiscated..
They could answer all our questions but they don't seem to want to..

I wonder why??

reply to post by backinblack


I have a dream! One day, people will realize.. "lack of something proves NOTHING!!" I have seen enough to know, the flotilla "activists" were prepared for a fight.. They initiated the fight.. They lost the fight.. Case closed.. The only argument that holds any water is the legality of the blockade. period!

I feel the blockade is legal and necessary!

reply to post by Resurrectio


You need to revisit the old threads back when this event first happened. The pro activist anti israel rhetoric was far worse back then. Most of those members are no longer with us.

The evidence of an armed ambush is very clear and we all know that hundreds of tons of supplies enter Gaza on a weekly basis. Unfortunately, no one ever wonders where the supplies actually end up. Hamas likes to maintain its stranglehold.

reply to post by backinblack


Well, yeah, at the moment I do believe that the IHH activists (the ones that were waiting on deck) did start it and were planning on engaging the commandos all along, but that doesn't mean I won't accept other explanations..

One guy mentioned a video of the IDF shooting through a door, I'd like to see that.

The intent was to break the blockade, but most of them knew they would be stopped, it was meant to draw attention to the cause, not to actually break the blockade by force..

Also as you mentioned I'm considering the fact that the intent of the Israeli army was to hit the first flotilla so hard that it would deter anyone else from coming, but seeing as how I'm lacking any proof that the IDF shot prior to boarding, and that the activists *did* in fact overpower the commandos there seem to have been pretty good reasoning for opening fire.

I'm just working with logic, trying to be as objective as I can, but as I said, even if it does turn out that Israel just shot at people randomly I would have a hard time fathoming it.. I'm just not able to be completely objective on all matters..

reply to post by Eliad


Did you ever view any photos of the IDF being attended to by medics below deck? I have most of these photos that I managed to obtain and can post some of them here if requested. Even some of the activists protected afew the IDF officers so that no harm comes to them. None of these photos and stories were ever leaked by the Israeli Govt because it taint their Israeli propaganda machine. The 19 year old American of Turkish extract....he (and an eldery gentleman) was of no threat to the IDF and were both systematically murdered. This 19 year old was just a young man; when the life story of this young man was released later, he really was a lovely young kid who was in the wrong place at the wrong time - and he WAS unarmed and only half of the size of the IDF officer; two of them pinned this kid down while a third systematically put a bullet in his head at close range.

The videos - in black and white like photo negatives was released 3 days after the fact. That in itself is highly questionable. I want to see the ORIGINAL film.

All those on board had their cameras/videos/laptops etc confiscated; none were ever returned. In fact 3 credit cards that I know of belonging to the activists were used by IDF officers for a variety of purchases in Israel. Not only was the money never paid back, but the officers involved only received a good talking to. Large amounts of Euros also confiscated; only a third of it was accounted for.

Are you aware of the shocking treatment of the activists in the military hanger? BOTH men and women - including a couple of Jewish women, were beaten with fists, steel cap boots and other weapons. One of the women only asked for a bottle of water!

I have so many more questions than answers.

This mission is not typically one of highly professional IDF units. This was planned weeks before the incident ever took place and in my opinion was planned to bring Netanyahu back earlier from his trip to Canada and the USA. What was awaiting Netanyahu in Washington was the head of the IAG (International Atomic Agency) I believe. Strange how Barak kept Ashkenazi right out of the loop. Even Ashkenazi was shocked by Barak (and instigated by Netanyahu immediately before his trip overseas) after the incident, a plan that was meant to intentionally go horribly wrong.

I know of the special units used within the Israeli navy and army. Firstly, they NEVER leak out a warning in any shape or form. They do these raids quietly in the night by taking their targets by surprise. They have always been highly successful at it. This particular unit were borderline schoolies and were told to do maximum damage as a lesson to any more of these flotillas.

Yes, I have no doubt there were lies told on both sides; but the biggest lies came from the Israeli Govt. Some of those IDF statements were lies too. I have photos of two of those Israelis who gave statements, and funny that, how so much they left out of their statements. These two were cowards; one of the photos clearly show one IDF officer blawling his eyes out while an activist was trying to give him medical attention to a small graze above his forehead. This IDF officer was clearly a kid probably only in the IDF afew months at best. I guess I don't blame him - the kid obviously was'nt trained for these operations .

Keep in mind the Flotilla was indeed in international waters and the activists had every right to defend themselves; keep in mind NONE of the activists carried guns nor were any found aboard.

reply to post by bluemirage5


I've heard the stories of people below deck attending the soldiers, and I believe them, never seen the photos though, I would like to see them, yes.

Those activists that were protecting the officers? They were protecting them from other activists trying to harm them.

Now as for Dogan- What was he doing on deck, didn't he realize it was a dangerous place to be? He might not have been a threat, but was perceived as a threat at the heat of the moment, or he could have just been hit by some stray bullet.

As for the execution of Dogan- What is the basis to your claim? Why only him? Why not just kill everyone in cold blood? Then why only 9 are dead?
There is no way in hell he was executed by the Israelis commandos, no way.

The videos in black and white are from heat vision cameras, they are the original films, and they were released on the same day, or one day later in the Israeli media.. The foreign MSM took some time to show it to the world. They are uncut, aren't they?

You question these films, because they're, what? Black and white? But you don't question the Dogan execution film that is full of errors, or people who testified that the commandos opened fire while descending on ropes off of the helicopter?

The money stolen from the credit cards was returned according to the article I read, and it wasn't officers that stole the money, it was the lowly privet in the hanger where it was stored, and the guy was prosecuted and sent to jail, if I remember correctly.

I was not aware of how the activists were treated, and it's sad to hear they were treated badly.. But in all fairness they probably weren't all just randomly beaten up.. Not for asking water, and not for just sitting there, and not with "other weapons" or steel capped boots (which aren't used by the IDF). I can suspect, even without evidence, that the soldiers weren't very gentle with them.

We all have more questions than answers.

Speculations aside, the unit that was sent there is the equivalent of the navy seals, and taking over a ship in the high seas is a job suited for only the most professional units in the army.

As for the speculations- Even if we assume this was all meant to blow up, the activists were as guilty of what's happened as the soldiers were, so things blew up anyway, plan or no plan.. If this had been a peaceful takeover, *and* 9 had died, I would have supported your theory, but no one got hurt on the other boats..

They leaked out a warning because it's protocol.. They *had* to warn them prior to boarding..

Those were highly trained men, they were overcome by numbers at a very close range, not by lack of experience or skill.

What is Israel's biggest lie?

You're forgetting that the IDF is composed of kids 18-21 years old.

The activists weren't in harm's way, the ship was to be boarded and stopped, they obviously had an objection to that, but that doesn't suggest they were defending themselves.

reply to post by jibeho


Oh, I was involved in those discussions (hence my new name and profile) I am truly happy that topic was able to draw Oozy out of his hole, causing him to attack everyone and get banned.

I stepped over the line and lost a very good track record on those threads.. (banned) I had to start over...

The only thing I know for sure is... Those activists are LUCKY AS HELL that it was Israel dropping in, and not Russians... The headlines would look allot different.

Russian Commandos repel onto boat, mysteriously, entire crew is deceased

reply to post by Resurrectio

I have a dream! One day, people will realize.. "lack of something proves NOTHING!!"

Well my dream is that Israel shows the evidence they DO have..
There's no lack of evidence, just a lack of desire to show it all...

reply to post by backinblack


I have yet to see a thread where Ressurectio doesn't advocate killing people. it's his answer to everything he dislikes, and trying to argue with him is rather pointless.

Now, as to the actual issue at hand, the people on the Navi Mamara felt they were coming under attack; armed soldiers are rappelling down from helicopter gunships. We can ague about the intent of the Israeli commandoes all day, but bottom line is, the people on the boat felt threatened, and responded exactly how you'd expect threatened people to react. They attacked the soldiers to subdue and disarm them, and transported the wounded men belowdecks to the ship's doctors.

This doesn't make the people terrorists by any stretch; it simply makes them frightened knuckleheads acting in perceived self-defense. It was a cock-up on both sides. The problem is, of course, that they're both trying to portray each other as Ultimate Evil; The people on the Navi Mamara were most certainly not cunning and evil members of the Anti-Israel Jew-Hating World Terrorism Conspiracy, as Israel claims, nor was Israel plowing the ship with carbine fire and trying to exterminate the boats, as the activists claim.

Unfortunately, the rest of us only get to hear one side of events, and even that side is admittedly withholding lots of evidence. The more Israel obfuscates and autofellates, the worse its own position in this gets, and the stronger a case for Israeli malfeasance grows.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


If Israel wanted a peacefull response they would NOT have acted in darkness..
That alone is a dead giveaway to me.
They wanted maximum confusion..

They could also easily have taken out the ships rudder and let them flounder till they agreed to be towed to port..

ALL the actions of Israel show they got the result they sought IMO...

international waters

i rest my case

reply to post by backinblack


I'm hardly giving Israel a pass here The whole thing could have been completely avoided if Israel had taken a less aggressive approach, that's for damn certain.