What freedoms are you talking about???

reply to post by schrodingers dog
Ummmm.......I understand what your attempting to convey, however if we consider that "all is illusion" and maintain a quasi perfected composure, an enlightened acceptance, we are also only ultimately "becoming", aquescence...........Can you see the paradox?..............Can this submission, ever become other than, that which it is?.........How does one maintain freedom in illusion, without succumbing to "delusion"?.........Ultimatly if the only path is acceptance and submission then there was never a choice and thus, never..........freedom......ever.
Therefore the paradox, illusion......."is".......delusion........and we are......"never"......free........ever.

reply to post by SeerTravisTruman
Ummmm...........I have to agree with your post, there was only one tiny little bit that I could'nt properly........"digest". I'll make the "assumption", that it was quite, "tongue in cheek".....otherwise.........spot on.

YouSir

Freedom is all about expectations, mine and yours.

I expect others should have freedoms, as well as I do.

But what happens when the freedoms I want cancel my neighbor's expected freedoms?

Further, what do we do when freedoms desired offset each other's expected freedoms?

About all we can hope for was stated by Cicero almost 2,000 years ago:

Liberae sunt nostrae cogitationes (Our thoughts are free.)

Originally posted by soficrow

You make valid points. What we're told is freedom is actually pure illusion. But I'm still really glad I grew up in the US and Canada because I'm fairly certain I would have died quite young in most other countries, shot dead on the street for being myself and speaking my mind.

Wow, you really haven't travelled far then have you?

You should see Newtown in Sydney, Australia - the place is basically a magnet for people who 'be themselves' and 'speak their mind'. Of course this is but one of a million or so examples of places around the world that people 'be themselves' and 'speak freely' on a regular and encouraged basis.

But you wouldn't know that, having never actually looked out that thing you call a window.

reply to post by Hot_Wings
Ummmm...............That's a perfectly acceptable set of thoughts........untill........you consider persons in prison. More appropriatly, "innocent" persons, that have been wrongly convicted. One might ask what freedoms they enjoy, compared to say..........you?
NOT criticizing, or attempting to demean.........merely stating.

YouSir

reply to post by FlyersFan


I agreed with a lot of your post but I think you may have one point incorrect.

Income taxes pay towards the interest owed on the National Debt. Income taxes do not pay for food, medicine, clothing, ambulance, fire trucks, roads, etc.

Originally posted by sdocpublishing
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

I agreed with a lot of your post but I think you may have one point incorrect.

Income taxes pay towards the interest owed on the National Debt. Income taxes do not pay for food, medicine, clothing, ambulance, fire trucks, roads, etc.

You are sooo correct!

All income taxes go to the overseas Banksters who own this country.

They give you the right to be a slave to them.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


I agree completely. That's my personal definition of freedom. Being able to do whatever you want, go wherever you want whenever you want without hurting others or imposing your will on others.

I know what freedom is not.

BEING A DEBT SLAVE TO ZIONAZI'S AND NEO-CONS

reply to post by reatarded



However this country was not founded as a Democracy believe it or not it was set up as a Republic which is differ ent I'm not going to get into the differences if you want them look them up yourself and you'll see they are quite different. It evolved into Democracy. Which honestly I think we've all figured out on this website (except for a few that is) utterly sucks. The Electoral College makes no sense in this day and age, the system is broken, voting does almost no good, honestly most votes are so close that they can be swung either way by TPTB and we'd never know cuz none of us sees the tally. Of course we are not free. It says in the Declaration of Independence "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends (life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness), it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and institute new government." There's no way we could do that at this point even if a strong minority walked up to the White House or to Congress tomorrow quoted the Declaration and spoke those words and said they were there to abolish the old government and start a new one that worked for the people again. You would be put under the jail for treason, and domestic terrorism or some other bull#! Your masters tell you that you must have a driver's license, it's a law to have insurance, it's a law to pay taxes (ON SOMETHING YOU SUPPOSEDLY OWN I.E. LAND, VEHICLES, AND HOMES) which is a complete contradiction how if you own it can it be taxed by another individual??? And YOU MUST WEAR YOUR SEAT BELT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT KNOWS WHAT'S BEST FOR YOU OTHERWISE YOU WILL BE PUNISHED! Come on freedom is an illusion. "This country is no longer a country of freedoms but a country of permissions" You are allowed to do as you please to an extent but by God you better not go against the status quo or your life will be made very difficult to say the least.

reply to post by hawkiye


That was the most profoundly thought provoking hour and a half I have ever experienced in my whole life. Thank you for sharing that link. Even though the video was amateur, the message was dramatic. When I watched the documentary "What a Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire", I thought that the statement "I have always felt that I would see the end of civilization as we know it, within my lifetime." was profound. It pales in comparison to "My greatest fear is that our government won't hear us until we speak their language. The language of Force." Wow.

Originally posted by Loki Lyesmyth
I know what freedom is not.

BEING A DEBT SLAVE TO ZIONAZI'S AND NEO-CONS

You don't have to be a debt slave and i'm gettting tired of seeing that in this thread. You choose to get loans and credit cards so stop complaining about debt being slavery.

You know some friends of mine complained about their mortgage and other debts and decided they wanted to pay it off. They spent 5 years cutting every single expense from their lives, living in the cheapest way possible and they are now debt free and have a nice house. They didn't watch tv, they didn't go out, they didn't buy new clothes, they sold their cars and got extra work on top of their two full time jobs.

Most people forget that to live costs very little or an awful lot depending on what luxuries you choose to have. You don't have to be a debt slave, live more simply and save every penny you can. If you do this early you will find yourself with a lot of money later on.

Originally posted by YouSir
reply to post by schrodingers dog

 

Ummmm.......I understand what your attempting to convey, however if we consider that "all is illusion" and maintain a quasi perfected composure, an enlightened acceptance, we are also only ultimately "becoming", aquescence...........Can you see the paradox?..............

I never stated that 'all is an illusion' ... this is a common misconception of the mind when it tries to process conceptual freedom. 'Illusion' just like 'freedom' is itself a relativistic concept, thus it exists only to the degree that one creates an equal conceptual opposite to define it.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8f8dd7a2b65b.jpg[/atsimg]

In the mind's eye, all things are paradoxes by definition.

Can this submission, ever become other than, that which it is?.

There's nothing to submit to ... only the realization of one's innate freedom from that which one has self constructed to self imprison.

........How does one maintain freedom in illusion, without succumbing to "delusion"?

One cannot ... as stated, there's no illusion to be freed from.

.........Ultimatly if the only path is acceptance and submission then there was never a choice and thus, never..........freedom......ever.
Therefore the paradox, illusion......."is".......delusion........and we are......"never"......free........ever.

As you wish.

There are no, or nearly enough, REAL freedoms in a Spookocracy (pathocracy). When "national security" is invoked to justify absolutely anything the corrupt government wants, it's a clearly totalitarian (enough) state. When enough American sheeple are brainwashed into believing ANY American military action SINCE WW2 has had anything to do with any AMERICAN'S freedoms, it's basically a military dictatorship, or as I call it, a military-secrecy complex dictatorship. The Black Budget, for example, is basically God here. The lamestream-TV media primarily-by-far serves as mouthpieces for government lies. Freedom of the press is probably THE most obvious illusion or lie today. George Orwell couldn't have dreamed THIS monstrous level of totalitarian s#^&, because it's not as OBVIOUSLY totalitarian as 1984, but it's getting there.

reply to post by TheBandit795

Total freedom is not possible unless you live by yourself, and isolated.

However, Within the constructs of a society of people, the original constitution of the USA and bill of rights offers the most freedom one can expect in their lifetimes if they plan on being a social creature at all. While not perfect, these documents strike an important balance. They protect the rights of the individual without infringing on the rights of the whole. And they protect the rights of the whole without infringing on the rights of the individual.

So. As originally intended. The constitution of this country guarantees each individual the most freedom they can reasonably expect to have as a group with a common goal. “LIFE, LIBERTY, AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.”

Anytime a large group of people live together, certain freedoms must be sacrificed to protect the freedoms of others. And I believe that as a whole, the citizens of this country have always understood that. It’s called common courtesy and respect.

Unfortunately, there are those who don’t care about your freedoms. They only care about their own. And most of them are generational politicians and the uber wealthy. And they use every tool at their disposal to deceive you into giving up rights that were guaranteed by the CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC you were born in.

(OUR FORM OF GOVERNMENT IS NOT A DEMOCRACY! Democracy is nothing more than mob mentality and rule! Democracy is majority rule! Democracy cares nothing for the rights of the individual! It has nothing to do with freedom.)

These people have accomplished their goals by methods too numerous to list here. But we can look at a few points. One could say the most valuable resource or commodity any one person owns is their time. Whatever you do in life requires your time. So then, one way to limit the rights and the freedoms of any group of people is to steal their time. Or deceive them into giving it to you.

How is that accomplished? Easy, if you are in a position that gives you the ability to restructure the lives of millions. National Debt. Taxes and Fees. And fear.

The more time an individual must relinquish to pay the withholdings from their wages, and the fees charged on sundry items in our society, the less time and resources they have to pursue the aforementioned “Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of happiness.” The more time an individual must forego in the quest to protect themselves and their loved ones from a perceived enemy, the less time and resources they have to enjoy their rights and freedoms. You name the perceived enemy. There are many.

How many ways have you been deceived into giving up your valuable time and resources?
How many times have your resources been stolen from you against your will?

How much freedom have you given up freely, or been deceived into relinquishing?

S&F OP.

reply to post by TheBandit795

Anyone can be free anytime, freedom is a state of mind. You always have a choice, you might not like the choice but you always have one (often more than one - which might be the problem it confuses people)

Originally posted by TheBandit795
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

 

I agree completely. That's my personal definition of freedom. Being able to do whatever you want, go wherever you want whenever you want without hurting others or imposing your will on others.

TB, every action you take, from the smallest breath to the grandest gesture, triggers an infinite number of causal ripples ... this isn't a spiritual abstraction, it's just common sense. Seeing as we can only consider/project but a few of the immediate said triggered ripples, how can one determine the causal fallout of one's every action so as to frame it in a way that it doesn't impose one's will on others? It is really impossible ... for every action has infinite consequences and sooner or later will in some form or another impose on another. That is in fact a significant pointer that we are all one ... simply because we as individuals cannot extract our existence from others'.

Buddhists get around this pickle by focusing on intent ... meaning they reason that if one's intent is virtuous it will karmically trigger virtuous causality, conversely they reason that any act triggered in vice will trigger the opposite infinite causal effect. But even within this framework, one's actions inevitably affect/impose on others'. So if freedom is as you define it, it is by definition impossible to attain.

You see the problem?

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Loki Lyesmyth
I know what freedom is not.

BEING A DEBT SLAVE TO ZIONAZI'S AND NEO-CONS

You don't have to be a debt slave and i'm gettting tired of seeing that in this thread. You choose to get loans and credit cards so stop complaining about debt being slavery.

You know some friends of mine complained about their mortgage and other debts and decided they wanted to pay it off. They spent 5 years cutting every single expense from their lives, living in the cheapest way possible and they are now debt free and have a nice house. They didn't watch tv, they didn't go out, they didn't buy new clothes, they sold their cars and got extra work on top of their two full time jobs.

Most people forget that to live costs very little or an awful lot depending on what luxuries you choose to have. You don't have to be a debt slave, live more simply and save every penny you can. If you do this early you will find yourself with a lot of money later on.

OK sooo, they first choose to be in debt, then choose to get out of it, however, and not to mock your freinds intent but the burning question for me now is...
How much do they still pay annually in taxes for the house they "own"...
for the oil/electricity/water they use? taxes on thier cable and internet bills...all on top of the taxes that are automatically removed from thier earnings before they even get thier checks.
what happens "if" they exercise thier freedom of choice and choose not pay thier property tax, or thier income tax, ect...
I beleive Edward and Elaine Brown of New Hampshire sure wish they were free,
(P.S. i dont condone the course of action taken in that instance on either side but Mr. Brown's intent WAS an attemt at freedom, unfortunately ...the road to hell is paved with good intentions, or so ive heard)

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by soficrow

You make valid points. What we're told is freedom is actually pure illusion. But I'm still really glad I grew up in the US and Canada because I'm fairly certain I would have died quite young in most other countries, shot dead on the street for being myself and speaking my mind.

Wow, you really haven't travelled far then have you?

You should see Newtown in Sydney, Australia - the place is basically a magnet for people who 'be themselves' and 'speak their mind'. Of course this is but one of a million or so examples of places around the world that people 'be themselves' and 'speak freely' on a regular and encouraged basis.

But you wouldn't know that, having never actually looked out that thing you call a window.

Woe. Where's THAT coming from? ...No need to make rude assumptions.

I was referring more to undeveloped or developing war-torn nations, and those that still deny womens' rights.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
OK sooo, they first choose to be in debt, then choose to get out of it, however, and not to mock your freinds intent but the burning question for me now is...
How much do they still pay annually in taxes for the house they "own"..

Those taxes pay for their bins to be collected, the streets to be maintained, the sewer system to be maintained blah blah etc. It amazes me so many hate taxes without considering what those taxes pay for, they expect services to be free. If you want to be a part of a society then taxes are required to pay for the systems we have in place.


.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
for the oil/electricity/water they use?

Well they pay companies to give them services, that is capitalism.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
taxes on thier cable and internet bills...all on top of the taxes that are automatically removed from thier earnings before they even get thier checks.

Again these are services we receive and so we pay for them, again it seems you want everything to be free.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
what happens "if" they exercise thier freedom of choice and choose not pay thier property tax, or thier income tax, ect...

Then they are basically saying they don't want to pay for services they use every day. You seem to want to use the roads, police, fire service, school system and other things for free. If you are using services for which you are not paying then i would consider that theft.

Originally posted by RadicalRebel
I beleive Edward and Elaine Brown of New Hampshire sure wish they were free,
(P.S. i dont condone the course of action taken in that instance on either side but Mr. Brown's intent WAS an attemt at freedom, unfortunately ...the road to hell is paved with good intentions, or so ive heard)

Sorry i'm in the UK so that has no real bearing upon me.